Saint of Second Chances- New Netflix Doc

[Buehrle>Wood]

Banner year for White Sox docs. Had Last Comiskey, Fitted in Black, and now new Bill/ Mike Veeck documentary. I'm about halfway through but it's pretty excellent coverage of Bill's last tenure with the Sox. Rest will probably dive more into Mike but I recommend it.

[ron883]

I've been meaning to watch this documentary as well. Looking forward to it. 

[JoeC]

It’s really good, though Mike Veeck bald with glasses looks like a tall Danny DeVito.

[South Side Hit Men]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/white-sox/ct-chicago-white-sox-mike-veeck-documentary-20230914-kqqo4b7frzab5bauz4b7cggbhm-story.html

Quote

“The ballpark belongs on the South Side,” he said. “It’s almost the heart and soul of it. I think whether it’s Barack Obama, or (Michael) Jordan and those guys, it should be a community effort to rise up. The South is going to rise again, and all hands should be on deck.”

Original Window To The World Bill Veeck Documentary shortly after he passed the day after New Years 1986. He was on the original Chicago sports writers / talk television show on WTTW called Time Out!

https://interactive.wttw.com/playlist/2021/03/30/bill-veeck

[Lip Man 1]

When I interviewed Mike he had an interesting take on why Disco Demolition went south:

ML: Let’s talk about that night, what went wrong, and what would you have done differently? 

MV: “My mistake was thinking that we’d get about 35,000 for the promotion. It turned out there were 60,000 inside the park and another 30-40 thousand on the streets around the park. Traffic was backed up all the way out to O’Hare Airport! Who had any idea that many kids would come out? WLUP was a 5,000 watt station; it wasn’t a giant like WLS or WCFL from when I was a kid.” 

“The other thing that happened was that we moved some of the police off the field. We had an adequate security force for 35,000 fans but not for 60,000. Outside of the park there were some temporary ticket booths staffed by older people. The kids were starting to get out of hand and started rocking those booths. We moved some of the police off the field outside to help. What happened next was the worst thing that could possible happen, the crowd began thinking as one and they realized there were only 35-40 police on the field. When a crowd begins thinking as one there is no such thing as crowd control. They said ‘let’s go on the field!’

ML: Some Sox fans feel DJ Steve Dahl could have done more to help calm the situation; instead he left the park with the riot in full force. Could he have done more to help? 

MV: “He could have made an effort. I, my dad and Harry Caray were all down on the field trying to regain control and he wasn’t... but the responsibility was mine. It was a bad decision.” 

“It was also a slow news day and that generated a tremendous amount of publicity, it was also an election year and Jayne Byrne used the situation as an election photo-op. What I most remember is newspaper guys like Bill Gleason saying what a tragedy it was. I know what a tragedy is, my daughter is losing her sight... this wasn’t a tragedy. The sun came up the next day; the Sox played another baseball game a few days later. It was the fourth forfeit in baseball history but how many take the same umbrage at 30,000 Dodger fans throwing baseballs on the field causing the fifth forfeit in baseball?” (Author’s Note: That took place on August 11, 1995 when Dodgers fans threw baseballs by the thousands on to the field with one out in the 9^th inning in a game against the Cardinals. St. Louis was awarded a forfeit win.)  

[South Side Hit Men]

Disco Demolition Night. It was the most widely attended and remembered baseball promotion in the history of the game. The second game should have either been played or rescheduled, and the pearl clutching back in the day was laughable. "There was reefer", now the State of Illinois and many others pawn it and gambling among other vices.

Wasn't happy with Sparky Anderson that day, but still like him overall between his success in the game and telling the owners to GFY and refusing to manage scabs in 1995, which got him blackballed by the scumbag trash pizza peddler Mike Ilitch, Jerry Reinsdorf and rest of the owners who went with loyal to ownership garbage managers like Terry Bevington and Buddy Bell during this era. Any random inning of Terry Bevington was far more embarrassing than Disco Demolition, and Buddy Bell somehow managed a worse career winning percentage than GMs Rick Hahn and Hawk Harrelson.

[The Mighty Mite]

I won’t watch the documentary because I don't need to revisit Disco Demolition night along with never being a fan of Bill Veeck going back to 1959 when he bought controlling interest of the Sox from Dorothy Comiskey Rigney. It was a shame that Chuck Comiskey and his sister couldn’t come to some kind of agreement that would have kept the Sox under Comiskey family ownership. Eventually when free agency came around Chuck probably would have had to sell the club but being that he was a native Chicagoan and loved the Sox I’m sure he would have found owners that also loved Chicago and the White Sox. You have to wonder what would have happened to the franchise if all those things happened and Bill Veeck, the Allyn brothers, Veeck again and eventually JR had never come upon the scene. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[JoeC]

You can just fast forward through the Disco Demolition Night section, then. Here's what the documentary wants you to know:
1. It followed Salute to Disco night earlier that year
2. It was wildly successful (drew a lot of people) and made the Sox happy, until it went haywire.
3. It crushed Mike Veeck, and Bill Veeck tried to publicly take the blame for it from Mike.
4. It basically blackballed Mike from baseball
5. It sent Mike's life down the drain until he got a call offering him a chance to start up the Saint Paul Saints franchise.

Now you can fast-forward through that part and not miss a beat.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Loved this. Couldn't recommend it enough.

[South Side Hit Men]

5 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I won’t watch the documentary because I don't need to revisit Disco Demolition night along with never being a fan of Bill Veeck going back to 1959 when he bought controlling interest of the Sox from Dorothy Comiskey Rigney. It was a shame that Chuck Comiskey and his sister couldn’t come to some kind of agreement that would have kept the Sox under Comiskey family ownership. Eventually when free agency came around Chuck probably would have had to sell the club but being that he was a native Chicagoan and loved the Sox I’m sure he would have found owners that also loved Chicago and the White Sox. You have to wonder what would have happened to the franchise if all those things happened and Bill Veeck, the Allyn brothers, Veeck again and eventually JR had never come upon the scene. 

Chucky boy was a spoiled brat, sabotaged Bill Veeck. They sucked ass under various widows and orphans for decades, finishing within ten games of first twice in 27 years

Games out of first place under various Comiskey widows and orphans:

1932-1939: 56’; 31; 47; 19’; 20; 16; 32; 22’.

1940-1949: 8; 24; 34; 16; 18; 15; 30; 27; 44’; 34.

1950-1958: 38; 17; 14; 11’; 17; 5; 12; 8; 10.

Bill Veeck’s Records: 

1959: 94-60 American League Pennant (only pennant in over 80 years).

1960: 87-67 10 GB

Sells the team in 1961 to recover from poor health including World War II leg amputation and treatment at the Mayo Clinic’s for cancer.

Saves the team from moving to Denver in December 1975.

Lines up future Super Bowl and  Stanley Cup champion owner Ed Debartolo to purchase the White Sox.

American League owners block sale, demand Brooklyn Dodger carpet baggers purchase team.

The Sunshine Boys proceed to destroy the White Sox and their fan base over the latest near half century through 2023 and beyond. 

[ThirdGen]

6 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I won’t watch the documentary because I don't need to revisit Disco Demolition night along with never being a fan of Bill Veeck going back to 1959 when he bought controlling interest of the Sox from Dorothy Comiskey Rigney. It was a shame that Chuck Comiskey and his sister couldn’t come to some kind of agreement that would have kept the Sox under Comiskey family ownership. Eventually when free agency came around Chuck probably would have had to sell the club but being that he was a native Chicagoan and loved the Sox I’m sure he would have found owners that also loved Chicago and the White Sox. You have to wonder what would have happened to the franchise if all those things happened and Bill Veeck, the Allyn brothers, Veeck again and eventually JR had never come upon the scene. 

The story of Mike Veeck and his family makes it worth watching, even if not a fan of Bill. Bill's story and the story of Disco Demolition are mere background to Mike's remarkable and somewhat tragic story, and the way he recovered his life and used his life lessons to help others recover their lives transcends the Sox related stuff.

[The Mighty Mite]

46 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Chucky boy was a spoiled brat, sabotaged Bill Veeck. They sucked ass under various widows and orphans for decades, finishing within ten games of first twice in 27 years

Games out of first place under various Comiskey widows and orphans:

1932-1939: 56’; 31; 47; 19’; 20; 16; 32; 22’.

1940-1949: 8; 24; 34; 16; 18; 15; 30; 27; 44’; 34.

1950-1958: 38; 17; 14; 11’; 17; 5; 12; 8; 10.

Bill Veeck’s Records: 

1959: 94-60 American League Pennant (only pennant in over 80 years).

1960: 87-67 10 GB

Sells the team in 1961 to recover from poor health including World War II leg amputation and treatment at the Mayo Clinic’s for cancer.

Saves the team from moving to Denver in December 1975.

Lines up future Super Bowl and  Stanley Cup champion owner Ed Debartolo to purchase the White Sox.

American League owners block sale, demand Brooklyn Dodger carpet baggers purchase team.

The Sunshine Boys proceed to destroy the White Sox and their fan base over the latest near half century through 2023 and beyond. 

There is no way that credit is to be given to Bill Veeck for the 1959 AL Champion White Sox, that team was built by Frank Lane and Chuck Comiskey, Veeck inherited that team when Dorothy sold her share of the Sox to Veeck in February of 1959, right before Spring Training.

Edited September 26, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[South Side Hit Men]

37 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

There is no way that credit is to be given to Bill Veeck for the 1959 AL Champion White Sox, that team was built by Frank Lane and Chuck Comiskey, Veeck inherited that team when Dorothy sold her share of the Sox to Veeck right after the 1958 season. 

LOL, 10 games out of first place was what Chucky boy accomplished in 1958. Attendance decreased over 300,000 from 1.1 million to under 800,000.

Veeck won the World Series his second year in Cleveland, won the AL Pennant in his first year in Chicago. Drew record crowds in both stops, record attendance in 1959 at 1.4m and even greater in 1960 at 1.6m, 100% higher than Chucky’s club.

Chuck screwed Veeck and the White Sox, screwed up after Bill sold and had nothing to show for it, which is what he earned. Dorothy, not Chucky, was given the majority of the team by his Mommy, and he stormed off multiple times when he didn’t get his way.

The Sox would be the same set of losers as all the other failed Chicago teams who passed down from generation to generation.

Will be the same s%*# show if Michael inherits and keeps the team. Hopefully he is content mucking up the Bulls after Jerry moves on, and the Sox can have their first decent owner and human being in charge of the White Sox since Bill Veeck.

Bill Veeck is in the Baseball HOF and deservedly so for all he did on behalf of the sport, Cleveland and winning and saving the team to stay in Chicago.

Edited September 26, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

LOL, 10 games out of first place was what Chucky boy accomplished in 1958. Attendance decreased over 300,000 from 1.1 million to under 800,000.

Veeck won the World Series his second year in Cleveland, won the AL Pennant in his first year in Chicago. Drew record crowds in both stops, record attendance in 1959 at 1.4m and even greater in 1960 at 1.6m, 100% higher than Chucky’s club.

Chuck screwed Veeck and the White Sox, screwed up after Bill sold and had nothing to show for it, which is what he earned. Dorothy, not Chucky, was given the majority of the team by his Mommy, and he stormed off multiple times when he didn’t get his way.

The Sox would be the same set of losers as all the other failed Chicago teams who passed down from generation to generation.

Will be the same s%*# show if Michael inherits and keeps the team. Hopefully he is content mucking up the Bulls after Jerry moves on, and the Sox can have their first decent owner and human being in charge of the White Sox since Bill Veeck.

Bill Veeck is in the Baseball HOF and deservedly so for all he did on behalf of the sport, Cleveland and winning and saving the team to stay in Chicago.

There was only one player on the 1959 team and World Series roster that Veeck brought in and that was Ted Kluzewski and though he had a great World Series he didn’t help much in the stretch run, again Veeck inherited that team much the way Reinsdorf inherited Michael Jordan and the Bulls. 
One thing I give Barnum Bill credit for is that he never set foot in Comiskey Park again after he realized what scum they were when he sold the team to in JR and EE.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[NO!!MARY!!!]

56 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

One thing I give Barnum Bill credit for is that he never set foot in Comiskey Park after he realized what scum he sold the team to in JR and EE.

 

That isn’t true. 

[The Mighty Mite]

57 minutes ago, NO!!MARY!!! said:

That isn’t true. 

All I remember was him and his wife sitting in the bleachers at Wrigley Field after he sold the Sox.

This article states what I posted earlier.

https://interactive.wttw.com/playlist/2021/03/30/bill-veeck#:~:text=His chosen successor was rejected,never went to Comiskey again.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[Lip Man 1]

From my interview with Mike Veeck:

ML: That group made the first in a long line of faux paux when Eddie Einhorn made a statement the day they bought the club along the lines of ‘we’re going to start running a first class operation.’ Many Sox fans and reportedly your dad were shocked and insulted by that comment. Making it worse was that your dad was right there when it was said. How did your dad and the Veeck family feel about that comment? 

MV: “We have never equated money with class. Just because we didn’t wear 200 hundred dollar shirts and 3,000 thousand dollar suits didn’t mean we didn’t have manners or didn’t respect other people. The one thing that my family has always done first and foremost was respect the fans of baseball and the game of baseball.” 

ML: I have heard that supposedly, Eddie Einhorn over the years privately apologized to your dad and tried to mend fences with him to no avail. Is that true? 

MV: “No… Eddie Einhorn never apologized for that remark, Jerry Reinsdorf did, and there is a difference between those two men.” 

ML: Basically those owners said it would be the Reinsdorf / Einhorn group or nobody. I guess your dad resigned himself to this but how did he feel about those two individuals? 

MV: “He was a businessman. He did what needed to be done.” 

 

[South Side Hit Men]

4 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

There was only one player on the 1959 team and World Series roster that Veeck brought in and that was Ted Kluzewski and though he had a great World Series he didn’t help much in the stretch run, again Veeck inherited that team much the way Reinsdorf inherited Michael Jordan and the Bulls. 
One thing I give Barnum Bill credit for is that he never set foot in Comiskey Park again after he realized what scum they were when he sold the team to in JR and EE.

They won more in 1959 because the Yankees sucked for once. Ozzie Ball is not the formula for long term success.

When you purchase a team in March, you're not going to have an impact on the roster. If you are a genius like Bill, you can vastly improve marketing and fan interest, hence the doubling of attendance.

The same happened with the Chicago NHL team after Dollar Bill died, and his son started televising home games. They won championships as well, and were beloved until the Aldrich story broke. With Rocky gone, Danny has a chance at a fresh start.

[A-Train to 35th]

12 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I won’t watch the documentary because I don't need to revisit Disco Demolition night along with never being a fan of Bill Veeck going back to 1959 when he bought controlling interest of the Sox from Dorothy Comiskey Rigney. It was a shame that Chuck Comiskey and his sister couldn’t come to some kind of agreement that would have kept the Sox under Comiskey family ownership. Eventually when free agency came around Chuck probably would have had to sell the club but being that he was a native Chicagoan and loved the Sox I’m sure he would have found owners that also loved Chicago and the White Sox. You have to wonder what would have happened to the franchise if all those things happened and Bill Veeck, the Allyn brothers, Veeck again and eventually JR had never come upon the scene. 

What If.......Eddie DeBartolo should have been the owner in 1980, but the American league voted against him and the rest is JR history.

[Lip Man 1]

6 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

There is no way that credit is to be given to Bill Veeck for the 1959 AL Champion White Sox, that team was built by Frank Lane and Chuck Comiskey, Veeck inherited that team when Dorothy sold her share of the Sox to Veeck in February of 1959, right before Spring Training.

Lane was a master at trading... getting guys like Pierce, Fox, Donovan, Minoso, Rivera, Lollar and Carrasquel. 

[ThirdGen]

16 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

From my interview with Mike Veeck:

ML: That group made the first in a long line of faux paux when Eddie Einhorn made a statement the day they bought the club along the lines of ‘we’re going to start running a first class operation.’ Many Sox fans and reportedly your dad were shocked and insulted by that comment. Making it worse was that your dad was right there when it was said. How did your dad and the Veeck family feel about that comment? 

MV: “We have never equated money with class. Just because we didn’t wear 200 hundred dollar shirts and 3,000 thousand dollar suits didn’t mean we didn’t have manners or didn’t respect other people. The one thing that my family has always done first and foremost was respect the fans of baseball and the game of baseball.” 

ML: I have heard that supposedly, Eddie Einhorn over the years privately apologized to your dad and tried to mend fences with him to no avail. Is that true? 

MV: “No… Eddie Einhorn never apologized for that remark, Jerry Reinsdorf did, and there is a difference between those two men.” 

ML: Basically those owners said it would be the Reinsdorf / Einhorn group or nobody. I guess your dad resigned himself to this but how did he feel about those two individuals? 

MV: “He was a businessman. He did what needed to be done.” 

 

I would assume the fact that Mike's son ended up working for the Sox would indicate fences mended between Reinsdorf and the Veeck family.  Einhorn's comment was stupid and insensitive. But the Sox did need to start acting like a Major League ballclub, their intentions were correct. Should have shut up and just made the changes everyone knew were necessary.

[KipWellsFan]

On 9/26/2023 at 2:00 PM, ThirdGen said:

The story of Mike Veeck and his family makes it worth watching, even if not a fan of Bill. Bill's story and the story of Disco Demolition are mere background to Mike's remarkable and somewhat tragic story, and the way he recovered his life and used his life lessons to help others recover their lives transcends the Sox related stuff.

Couldn't have said it better myself. White Sox related stuff aside, it is a great and touching personal story.

Bit of a love story for baseball as well.

[South Side Hit Men]

4 hours ago, ThirdGen said:

I would assume the fact that Mike's son ended up working for the Sox would indicate fences mended between Reinsdorf and the Veeck family.  Einhorn's comment was stupid and insensitive. But the Sox did need to start acting like a Major League ballclub, their intentions were correct. Should have shut up and just made the changes everyone knew were necessary.

Narrator: "Jerry's first change was replacing Roland Hemond with Hawk Harrelson. The rest is more of the same."

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

I watched last night. Its really well done and was a good watch. His relationship with his daughter and the end, as a father of a young girl, hits really hard.

[ThirdGen]

51 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Narrator: "Jerry's first change was replacing Roland Hemond with Hawk Harrelson. The rest is more of the same."

I said their intentions were correct.  Obviously the execution of those intentions was not.