The Anti-Rebuild Sentiment

[GREEDY]

The perfect storm of mediocrity, valuable controlled assets and recent success on the north side afforded the previous front office a uniquely supportive fanbase for a complete rebuild.

 

Now seven years later, that golden ticket opportunity has clearly been squandered and the fanbase seems dead set against rebuilding again.

 

Sox internet lambastes: “Until Jerry is gone, nothing will change, so what is the point”.  

If that is the sentiment, why not rebuild?  Are fans excited to enter the lose-lose Jack Flaherty and Amed Rosario sweepstakes this winter, only for any veteran signing to move the Sox expected World Series needle odds by 0.5%?

I understand and share in the helplessness we all feel right now, but we have to play the hand we are dealt, no matter how many Jerry Jokers we are holding.  

 

For me it is simple, the options are:

A. Enjoy watching Luis Robert for three more seasons, likely with zero chance at winning a World Series, and only a slightly better chance at winning a terrible division.

B.  Trade what little valuable assets the White Sox have (In what could possibly shape up to be a seller’s market) and rebuild.     

 

I choose option B by a large margin.  I won’t go over the obvious reasons (everyone sucks) and instead offer my outside the box takes on the situation:

 

1. Rebuilding slightly minimizes the Jerry Reinsdorf effect. You can’t miss out on free agents you aren’t try to sign.  Tony La Russa can’t manage players you haven’t drafted yet.

 

2. I believe the MLB doesn’t love tanking or complete tear downs and will continue to put rules in place to disincentive clubs from doing so.  Being one of the last organizations to possibly attempt a teardown would be +EV.  I’d also love to see a front office acquire bad contracts from teams, matched with prospects, especially from clubs that are attempting to avoid Luxury Tax penalties.  I also assume the minute that becomes a thing, MLB will be there to put an end to it.  Doing that this offseason would obviously beat the league to the punch.

 

3.  A sale of the club feels at least a few years away.  Why not minimize liabilities and hope to  be as attractive of an asset as possible?  Adding a Benintendi super splash signing a year to the books for the next few years could severely hamper any instant impact a new ownership group might have.

 

4.  The Sox were picking 11th in year 1 of the rebuild last party.  They will have a much better pick next year and would be close to a lock for at least one more top 4 pick before things got better.

 

5.  After a phenomenal season and with a contract that only gets shorter, it is significantly more likely you are selling high on Robert than it is that you are selling low.  

 

 

Do we all wish it wasn't Chris Getz in charge of a possible rebuild?  Sure. 

But does it mean we should just watch Luis Robert play for a 60-70 win team for 3 more years and then jump off a bridge?

[The Mighty Mite]

I'm 78 and I need another rebuild like I need a case of swollen hemorrhoids but I see no other way out of this, we have a heartless non-hustling fundamentally unsound baseball team and it needs to be blown up and that means no untouchables including Robert.

[Kyyle23]

It doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s happening 

[Buehrle>Wood]

I don't see why I should trust them to rebuild any more than they retool. Just because you rebuild doesnt mean you will actually become a contender. This shouldnt have to be explained given our current situation. Simple as that.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Buehrle>Wood

[greg775]

3 hours ago, GREEDY said:

The perfect storm of mediocrity, valuable controlled assets and recent success on the north side afforded the previous front office a uniquely supportive fanbase for a complete rebuild.

 

Now seven years later, that golden ticket opportunity has clearly been squandered and the fanbase seems dead set against rebuilding again.

 

Sox internet lambastes: “Until Jerry is gone, nothing will change, so what is the point”.  

If that is the sentiment, why not rebuild?  Are fans excited to enter the lose-lose Jack Flaherty and Amed Rosario sweepstakes this winter, only for any veteran signing to move the Sox expected World Series needle odds by 0.5%?

I understand and share in the helplessness we all feel right now, but we have to play the hand we are dealt, no matter how many Jerry Jokers we are holding.  

 

For me it is simple, the options are:

A. Enjoy watching Luis Robert for three more seasons, likely with zero chance at winning a World Series, and only a slightly better chance at winning a terrible division.

B.  Trade what little valuable assets the White Sox have (In what could possibly shape up to be a seller’s market) and rebuild.     

 

I choose option B by a large margin.  I won’t go over the obvious reasons (everyone sucks) and instead offer my outside the box takes on the situation:

 

1. Rebuilding slightly minimizes the Jerry Reinsdorf effect. You can’t miss out on free agents you aren’t try to sign.  Tony La Russa can’t manage players you haven’t drafted yet.

 

2. I believe the MLB doesn’t love tanking or complete tear downs and will continue to put rules in place to disincentive clubs from doing so.  Being one of the last organizations to possibly attempt a teardown would be +EV.  I’d also love to see a front office acquire bad contracts from teams, matched with prospects, especially from clubs that are attempting to avoid Luxury Tax penalties.  I also assume the minute that becomes a thing, MLB will be there to put an end to it.  Doing that this offseason would obviously beat the league to the punch.

 

3.  A sale of the club feels at least a few years away.  Why not minimize liabilities and hope to  be as attractive of an asset as possible?  Adding a Benintendi super splash signing a year to the books for the next few years could severely hamper any instant impact a new ownership group might have.

 

4.  The Sox were picking 11th in year 1 of the rebuild last party.  They will have a much better pick next year and would be close to a lock for at least one more top 4 pick before things got better.

 

5.  After a phenomenal season and with a contract that only gets shorter, it is significantly more likely you are selling high on Robert than it is that you are selling low.  

 

 

Do we all wish it wasn't Chris Getz in charge of a possible rebuild?  Sure. 

But does it mean we should just watch Luis Robert play for a 60-70 win team for 3 more years and then jump off a bridge?

This post is useless. Why? Sox have no assets to trade that would support a tank/rebuild. Moncada, TA and Eloy and Cease are not going to bring enough in. I am in favor of getting rid of TA and Moncada, sure. But a tank/rebuild will not work this time. You aren't going to get much for either TA or Moncada, folks. Eloy 'might' bring something useful in the rebuild mode. Moncada is a player nobody with a brain wants. Cease walks too many batters to bring back a ton of useful rebuild assets.

The Sox blew it by hiring Getz and hiring Pedro. The only way out of this is to have competent baseball people made a couple trades, coach up the few good players we have in the minors, draft well (lol Sox don't draft well) and try to get back to .500 which will let u compete in the laughable Central Division.

A tank/rebuild? I'd rather the Sox move or be contracted from the league.

[Chick Mercedes]

Aside from a popup winner in 2005,  the pathetic record of this team for countless decades (well, they were actually counted) speaks for itself that there is no direction they choose likkely to work. It is an incompetant organization, historically so. Perhaps the unwillingness to invest in a productive farm team prevents them from being successful despite themselves. But until they finally decided to build a sustainable model for the farm system to flourish, all this talk about which direction to choose is  empty gumflapping.

[caulfield12]

Four more years of Robert.

No guarantee that 2026 draft pick will be Top Ten because 2025 will be #4 and they just changed the rule so they would be #11-15 in 2026...assuming a bottom five team again next year.

[GREEDY]

3 hours ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

I don't see why I should trust them to rebuild any more than they retool. Just because you rebuild doesnt mean you will actually become a contender. 

I completely get it.  

But if you don't trust them to do either... 

Pretend Jerry made the right hires this go around.  Payroll stays around the same. What would you want the new front office to do? 

I think that answer is deal Robert/Cease, tank for 2 years, buy some prospects via bad contracts and regroup.  So I guess that is what I hope Getz is planning to do. 

[GREEDY]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

 

The Sox blew it by hiring Getz and hiring Pedro. The only way out of this is to have competent baseball people made a couple trades, coach up the few good players we have in the minors, draft well (lol Sox don't draft well) and try to get back to .500 which will let u compete in the laughable Central Division.

 

So you want the coaches that you don't like to "coach up players".

You want the GM that you don't like to make a couple trades.

And you want the Sox to draft well even though you say they don't draft well.

Sounds like you'd like them to start fresh with a rebuild, you just don't realize it.  

 

[Balta1701]

44 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

I completely get it.  

But if you don't trust them to do either... 

Pretend Jerry made the right hires this go around.  Payroll stays around the same. What would you want the new front office to do? 

I think that answer is deal Robert/Cease, tank for 2 years, buy some prospects via bad contracts and regroup.  So I guess that is what I hope Getz is planning to do. 

1. Is there a point to trading Cease after a second half with an ERA over 5? Is anyone giving up multiple top prospects for that? Even Kenny Williams didn’t pay that kind of price for struggling pitchers. At least have to wait until the deadline.

2. Robert being traded is still something I’d consider if I were the white sox GM, but I wouldn’t pay a fair price if I was an opposing GM. The opposing GM would be paying a premium talent price for 4 years of control, for a player with a substantial injury history, who also seems to be very difficult to coach - he’s relying solely on athletic ability and doesn’t want to learn more. The trade deadline problems still exist, only a handful of teams can afford him and for those who could it’s a very risky deal.

[South Side Hit Men]

They will need to change the way they operate if they ever want to legitimately contend for "multi-championship seasons" for the first time since Larry Himes' early 1990s teams (well until Jerry sabotaged during his futile attempt to kill the union).

They need to keep Luis Robert Junior. Even if they get three legitimate solid players dumping Robert, they will need at least a dozen more. They need to find out a way to get a dozen more, and hopefully Luis will still be here. White Sox fans should have a chance to enjoy their best players for as long as possible, and hopefully play and stay long enough to join the list of Thirteen White Sox Pennant and or World Series winners!

 

Career 30 + bWAR White Sox with a Championship * or Pennant

1. 68.3 Frank Thomas (2005)
2. 67.5 Red Faber (1917, 1919)
3. 66.8 Eddie Collins (1917, 1919)
4. 63.9 Ed Walsh (1906)
5. 50.0 Eddie Cicotte (1917, 1919)
6. 49.4 Billy Pierce (1959)
7. 48.9 Mark Buehrle (2005)
8. 47.4 Nellie Fox (1959)
9. 35.3 Luis Aparicio (1959)
10. 34.1 Doc White (1906)
11. 33.2 George Davis (1906)
12. 33.1 Ray Schalk (1917, 1919)
13. 32.0 Fielder Jones (1901, 1906)

Career 30 + bWAR White Sox without a Championship or Pennant

1. 77.5 Luke Appling (1930 - 1950)
2. 66.8 Ted Lyons (1923 - 1942; 1946)
3. 51.7 Wilbur Wood (1967 - 1978)
4. 41.4 Minnie Minoso (1951 - 1957; 1960 - 1961; 1964; 1976; 1980)
5. 39.4 Robin Ventura (1989 - 1998)
6. 31.8 Jose Abreu (2014 - 2022)
7. 30.2 Thornton Lee (1937 - 1947)
8. 30.1 Chris Sale (2010 - 2016)

Note *: Includes 1901 American League Championship - There was no World Series played until 1903.

[Lip Man 1]

There is no easy straight forward answer to the cesspool they created.

They have zero credibility with the fan base who (rightly) think anything said by the front office is spin and CYA.

If they call it a rebuild they publicly admit the initial attempt was a failure and they also alienate what fan base they have left who won't believe the folks in charge will do any better than the previous staff.

But that same fan base will see (likely) a half-ass off season trying to patch numerous holes with retreads, has-been's, injury prone players and mediocre free agents.

They are between a rock and a hard place. 

There is only one way out and I'm not being facetious. Fans need to take care of themselves and hope to outlive JR and see what new ownership can bring.

Until then it's going to be a lot of misery. Keep those VHS tapes of DVD's of past Sox games from good seasons around...your going to want to watch them.

 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

There is no easy straight forward answer to the cesspool they created.

They have zero credibility with the fan base who (rightly) think anything said by the front office is spin and CYA.

If they call it a rebuild they publicly admit the initial attempt was a failure and they also alienate what fan base they have left who won't believe the folks in charge will do any better than the previous staff.

But that same fan base will see (likely) a half-ass off season trying to patch numerous holes with retreads, has-been's, injury prone players and mediocre free agents.

They are between a rock and a hard place. 

There is only one way out and I'm not being facetious. Fans need to take care of themselves and hope to outlive JR and see what new ownership can bring.

Until then it's going to be a lot of misery. Keep those VHS tapes of DVD's of past Sox games from good seasons around...your going to want to watch them.

 

The obvious answer is “be honest”. Admit you’re in a tough spot and this will take time. Admit there are issues but say you are fixing them, and even tell the fans how. Give your fans some credit and respect them and they will tolerate any delay you have to do as long as it’s clear you’re trying.

[greg775]

4 hours ago, GREEDY said:

So you want the coaches that you don't like to "coach up players".

You want the GM that you don't like to make a couple trades.I 

And you want the Sox to draft well even though you say they don't draft well.

Sounds like you'd like them to start fresh with a rebuild, you just don't realize it.  

 

I guess I wrote it wrong. I want all new coaches and a new manager to coach 'em up. I don't want Getz but it's too late. I was being sarcastic about them possibly being successful in the draft while yes demanding the picks they get work out. ... No I don't want a rebuild. I consider the guys we are trading to be worth very little. I want to get rid of Moncada and TA and Eloy. ... It may look like a tank/rebuild but we don't have the current assets to deal in a tank/rebuild. I am advocating just normal trades of average players in TA, Moncada and Eloy.

[greg775]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

1. Is there a point to trading Cease after a second half with an ERA over 5? Is anyone giving up multiple top prospects for that? Even Kenny Williams didn’t pay that kind of price for struggling pitchers. At least have to wait until the deadline.

2. Robert being traded is still something I’d consider if I were the white sox GM, but I wouldn’t pay a fair price if I was an opposing GM. The opposing GM would be paying a premium talent price for 4 years of control, for a player with a substantial injury history, who also seems to be very difficult to coach - he’s relying solely on athletic ability and doesn’t want to learn more. The trade deadline problems still exist, only a handful of teams can afford him and for those who could it’s a very risky deal.

Another good post. The only good thing about being a Sox fan right now is many of u on the board are smart peeps regarding the Sox.

[pcq]

No rebuild they will just stumble along doing things that barely make any sense. No need to discuss since they are too disorganized to commit to one. 

[Dick Allen]

9 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

1. Is there a point to trading Cease after a second half with an ERA over 5? Is anyone giving up multiple top prospects for that? Even Kenny Williams didn’t pay that kind of price for struggling pitchers. At least have to wait until the deadline.

2. Robert being traded is still something I’d consider if I were the white sox GM, but I wouldn’t pay a fair price if I was an opposing GM. The opposing GM would be paying a premium talent price for 4 years of control, for a player with a substantial injury history, who also seems to be very difficult to coach - he’s relying solely on athletic ability and doesn’t want to learn more. The trade deadline problems still exist, only a handful of teams can afford him and for those who could it’s a very risky deal.

I disagree with Robert. I think until he was pulled from the game earlier this year, your statement was accurate. But something happened after that. He actually hustles out most ground balls now. His defense by walls has improved dramatically. There are still flaws, but trading him especially if you suggest another team won’t pay the price , just makes another mistake. More often than not, when guys of Robert’s ilk get traded, the only thing the team really gains in the long run is some salary relief. Look at the Sox with their 3. They actually did better than most, but most here hate Moncada, hate Kopech, think Cease sucks, want Eloy traded, think Giolito is done, and wanted ReyLo gone years ago. Might as well keep a guy who could be a star of stars if things align properly. 

[NO!!MARY!!!]

11 hours ago, greg775 said:

This post is useless. Why? Sox have no assets to trade that would support a tank/rebuild. Moncada, TA and Eloy and Cease are not going to bring enough in. I am in favor of getting rid of TA and Moncada, sure. But a tank/rebuild will not work this time. You aren't going to get much for either TA or Moncada, folks. Eloy 'might' bring something useful in the rebuild mode. Moncada is a player nobody with a brain wants. Cease walks too many batters to bring back a ton of useful rebuild assets.

The Sox blew it by hiring Getz and hiring Pedro. The only way out of this is to have competent baseball people made a couple trades, coach up the few good players we have in the minors, draft well (lol Sox don't draft well) and try to get back to .500 which will let u compete in the laughable Central Division.

A tank/rebuild? I'd rather the Sox move or be contracted from the league.

Of course you would. 

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I disagree with Robert. I think until he was pulled from the game earlier this year, your statement was accurate. But something happened after that. He actually hustles out most ground balls now. His defense by walls has improved dramatically. There are still flaws, but trading him especially if you suggest another team won’t pay the price , just makes another mistake. More often than not, when guys of Robert’s ilk get traded, the only thing the team really gains in the long run is some salary relief. Look at the Sox with their 3. They actually did better than most, but most here hate Moncada, hate Kopech, think Cease sucks, want Eloy traded, think Giolito is done, and wanted ReyLo gone years ago. Might as well keep a guy who could be a star of stars if things align properly. 

Let’s go specifically to his hitting attitudes, he makes it clear that he doesn’t want coaching, he doesn’t need those advanced scouting reports, he doesn’t want someone telling him he needs to be more patient at the plate. Hes up there to swing and he doesn’t need any help.

That kind of attitude is ok with the White Sox, but do you think that would fly on a quality team? Would the Dodgers put up with that? 

And that strategy also is working now when he’s 25 &: still one of the quickest, most athletic guys on the field. Does it still work when he’s 28 and things have slowed down by a few microseconds on his response time? Or if he’s 27 and he has a sore hip or sore shoulder? 

[FloydBannister1983]

13 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

There is no easy straight forward answer to the cesspool they created.

They have zero credibility with the fan base who (rightly) think anything said by the front office is spin and CYA.

If they call it a rebuild they publicly admit the initial attempt was a failure and they also alienate what fan base they have left who won't believe the folks in charge will do any better than the previous staff.

But that same fan base will see (likely) a half-ass off season trying to patch numerous holes with retreads, has-been's, injury prone players and mediocre free agents.

They are between a rock and a hard place. 

There is only one way out and I'm not being facetious. Fans need to take care of themselves and hope to outlive JR and see what new ownership can bring.

Until then it's going to be a lot of misery. Keep those VHS tapes of DVD's of past Sox games from good seasons around...your going to want to watch them.

 

Or … move on to other teams.  Fans aren’t obligated to remain loyal fans forever.  When it’s stopped being a two way street take the off ramp.

[FloydBannister1983]

6 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I disagree with Robert. I think until he was pulled from the game earlier this year, your statement was accurate. But something happened after that. He actually hustles out most ground balls now. His defense by walls has improved dramatically. There are still flaws, but trading him especially if you suggest another team won’t pay the price , just makes another mistake. More often than not, when guys of Robert’s ilk get traded, the only thing the team really gains in the long run is some salary relief. Look at the Sox with their 3. They actually did better than most, but most here hate Moncada, hate Kopech, think Cease sucks, want Eloy traded, think Giolito is done, and wanted ReyLo gone years ago. Might as well keep a guy who could be a star of stars if things align properly. 

He is still injury prone.  I wouldn’t be shocked to see him play 100 games next year.  This year has been an outlier for him.

[Lip Man 1]

56 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

Or … move on to other teams.  Fans aren’t obligated to remain loyal fans forever.  When it’s stopped being a two way street take the off ramp.

That's up to the individua. As for me being born and raised on the South Side that is not an option. 

[kitekrazy]

Trade is a bad word for the Sox organization.   They don't work yet fans say trade but forget the realistic part like for what?  Stocked farm, getting a haul are just buzz words for the fantasy player.   It's a false sense of reality when an organization can't develop or draft.  Sure they night get lucky but history points the same direction as their sponsor.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, kitekrazy said:

Trade is a bad word for the Sox organization.   They don't work yet fans say trade but forget the realistic part like for what?  Stocked farm, getting a haul are just buzz words for the fantasy player.   It's a false sense of reality when an organization can't develop or draft.  Sure they night get lucky but history points the same direction as their sponsor.

Yep. Sox traded Chris Sale, an all time great White Sox, for Moncada and Kopech, both highly thought of prospects.

Yoan put up two excellent seasons in 2019 and 2021, battled hard with COVID in 2020 but hasn’t been the same since. Kopech is still a player with potential but no substantive results beyond a decent 2022 as a starter and 2021 as a reliever.

Sale has suffered a few major injuries with the Carmines, but still has nearly the same bWAR (17.1) as Yoan (13.9) and Kopech (4.5) combined, albeit at a much higher salary. Also won a World Series ring for his efforts.

Sale, Abreu and Robert are once a decade stars. Like to enjoy them for as long as possible.

[GreenSox]

On 9/29/2023 at 2:42 PM, The Mighty Mite said:

I'm 78 and I need another rebuild like I need a case of swollen hemorrhoids but I see no other way out of this, we have a heartless non-hustling fundamentally unsound baseball team and it needs to be blown up and that means no untouchables including Robert.

I agree, but I hope see a more aggressive build part of the rebuild, which I think we'll get.