Andrew Vaughn and Eloy: what's the plan here?

[bmags]

9 minutes ago, JoeC said:

That is probably the organization's philosophy, and that's my exact issue with this org that I unfortunately love.

Sox attitude: "let's give this guy time to prove himself."

Competent org attitude: "let's give ourselves a year or so to work out these specific holes in their game, whether it's at the big league level or minor league level, at which point we can figure out he's a good everyday player or if we should sell before his value declines too much"

I don't actually see a difference and no competent org is going to send him to the minors. 

[JoeC]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I don't actually see a difference and no competent org is going to send him to the minors. 

I'm inclined to agree that no competetent org would send him to AAA, but stranger things have happened.

My point is that the "sink or swim" school of development is outdated and will continue to set us back.

Competent organizations have strategies in mind, and they deliberately seek out players who they see can benefit the most from their pipelines. Development doesn't stop once you hit the big leagues, either. With the Sox, it's just a "sink or swim" school of thought, and it seems like we see the results time and again of players (especially hitters) languishing with the Sox but thriving once they leave.

[CentralChamps21]

I wanted Eloy traded last offseason when his value was higher. He clearly has no defensive value and swings at way too many pitches outside the zone to be an effective DH.

Burger would look much nicer at DH, but that's too late now.

[ChiSox59]

Hold and hope for the  best.  That's about all you can do with pretty much the entirety of the returning roster. 

Just need to hope that Getz is much better at adding around the fringes than his predecessors. 

[ChiSox59]

3 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

I wanted Eloy traded last offseason when his value was higher. He clearly has no defensive value and swings at way too many pitches outside the zone to be an effective DH.

Burger would look much nicer at DH, but that's too late now.

Eloy is a flawed player, no doubt about it.  But he has a career OPS of .811, OPS+ and wRC+ of 118. His bat is plenty good enough to be an effective DH. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by ChiSox59

[Chisoxfn]

17 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Pro side: Cronenworth has 2 4WAR seasons in 2021 and 2022. He is affordably under team control for the next 7 seasons. Is versatile and helps at positions of need.

Cons: next year will be his age 30 season and he has 7 years and $76 million remaining on his deal so this would be a big salary dump. He dropped to a 1 WAR season last year so you are hoping your coaches can help him get back to form. He broke his wrist last year and people seem thrilled to use that as an excuse for poor hitting whenever they can.

Verdict: if they think they’re competitive next year this is the kind of gamble that could work and they need some gambles to work out, also would do what Getz said and make them more athletic. If you believe me and they need to be looking 2 or 3 years down the road this type of deal would be a potentially big problem as you’d be stuck with a guy who has money lasting until he’s 36 on a team that can’t afford anything.

I dig this. 

[tray]

Eloy is one of a few hitters that gives the Sox a chance to get an RBI or get an extra base hit late in games. His batting average  and other stats compared to the rest of the line-up bear that out. His positive demeanor is an asset to clubhouse chemistry and fan support and his friendship with Robert decrease the likelihood he will be traded. Player trades are not made to satisfy personal preferences of certain fans who have their own little agendas. So sorry.

Edited October 6, 2023 by tray

[Bob Sacamano]

12 minutes ago, tray said:

Eloy is one of a few hitters that gives the Sox a chance to get an RBI or get an extra base hit late in games. His batting average  and other stats compared to the rest of the line-up bear that out. His positive demeanor is an asset to clubhouse chemistry and fan support and his friendship with Robert decrease the likelihood he will be traded. Player trades are not made to satisfy personal preferences of certain fans who have their own little agendas. So sorry.

I don't think anyone has their own agenda lmao good grief.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Eloy is a flawed player, no doubt about it.  But he has a career OPS of .811, OPS+ and wRC+ of 118. His bat is plenty good enough to be an effective DH. 

Whether these items are related or just coincidence based on when he has been moved to this position I do not know, but I do find it worth adding that his career OPS as a DH is .739. 

[kitekrazy]

On 10/6/2023 at 8:55 AM, CentralChamps21 said:

I wanted Eloy traded last offseason when his value was higher. He clearly has no defensive value and swings at way too many pitches outside the zone to be an effective DH.

Burger would look much nicer at DH, but that's too late now.

Trade for what?  You hope a GM doesn't se the same things you mentioned and look at possible potential.  That type GM was KW.   There's probably plenty of GMs out there that will give you a Wilson Betemitt or one worse.  

[WestEddy]

22 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

You hope a GM doesn't se the same things you mentioned and look at possible potential. 

I guess Kim Ng is one of those. Many people complained about Jake Burger's defense, injury history, low OBP - all until he was traded, and he suddenly became a sure fire HOFer. 

If a player has talent, there's a lot of teams who believe they can put him on a program, and work with it. We watched prospects who raked at AAA come up and OPS .550 over two months. A guy who has proven he can hit major league pitching is a commodity. He may not get an Adam Eaton package, but teams will want him. 

[CentralChamps21]

18 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

Trade for what?  You hope a GM doesn't se the same things you mentioned and look at possible potential.  That type GM was KW.   There's probably plenty of GMs out there that will give you a Wilson Betemitt or one worse.  

Salary relief and a relief prospect. Mostly addition by subtraction.

[kitekrazy]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:48 PM, WestEddy said:

I guess Kim Ng is one of those. Many people complained about Jake Burger's defense, injury history, low OBP - all until he was traded, and he suddenly became a sure fire HOFer. 

If a player has talent, there's a lot of teams who believe they can put him on a program, and work with it. We watched prospects who raked at AAA come up and OPS .550 over two months. A guy who has proven he can hit major league pitching is a commodity. He may not get an Adam Eaton package, but teams will want him. 

You brought up one of the biggest WTF decisions in baseball.

[kitekrazy]

14 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Salary relief and a relief prospect. Mostly addition by subtraction.

= Reinsdorf's pocket.  That's about it.

[oldsox]

On 10/8/2023 at 4:48 PM, WestEddy said:

I guess Kim Ng is one of those. Many people complained about Jake Burger's defense, injury history, low OBP - all until he was traded, and he suddenly became a sure fire HOFer. 

If a player has talent, there's a lot of teams who believe they can put him on a program, and work with it. We watched prospects who raked at AAA come up and OPS .550 over two months. A guy who has proven he can hit major league pitching is a commodity. He may not get an Adam Eaton package, but teams will want him. 

Yes, and Sox will no doubt get some offers for Vaughn.  He actually hits the ball hard on occasion.  Plus, he actually hustles.  Those two attributes cover a multitude of sins.

[Bob Sacamano]

No one is really pushing to replace either one so they should stick around. However, it's going to be hard to get this lineup more balanced (except at 2B if you add someone like Adam Frazier and add a veteran switch hitter behind the plate in Caratini). If you decline the TA option and make a trade for a left-handed MI that can play SS, I guess that would help the balance issue, though I don't know who that guy would be.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[T R U]

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

Yes, and Sox will no doubt get some offers for Vaughn.  He actually hits the ball hard on occasion.  Plus, he actually hustles.  Those two attributes cover a multitude of sins.

I can't imagine any offer for Vaughn would be worth doing.

Vaughn is a 1B only player with no speed, no standout defensive skills, middling power for the position. Hes maxed out. At this point you roll the dice and hope something clicks for him next season.

 

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, T R U said:

I can't imagine any offer for Vaughn would be worth doing.

Vaughn is a 1B only player with no speed, no standout defensive skills, middling power for the position. Hes maxed out. At this point you roll the dice and hope something clicks for him next season.

 

Vaughn hit tool is definitely not "maxed out".  

[ChiSox59]

Not really on topic, but I hope the Sox take a run at Mark Canha this offseason.  He is not a sexy name by any means, but he seems like he'd be a great fit on a shorter term deal.  He gets on base, and is a grinder type this club badly needs.  Can take the RF job until Colas earns his reps back (whenever that may be), and then becomes a great platoon partner for him (and Beni) against LHP.  Can play RF and LF (CF and corner IFs in a pinch). 

I just really like the fit.  2/$25M should get it done.  Might even be able to get him on a 1 year deal. 

[T R U]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Vaughn hit tool is definitely not "maxed out".  

Hes maxed out physically is what I meant but since you brought it up, we have 3 seasons of data now that are all practically identical. My money says Vaughn is what he is.

 

[poppysox]

Vaughn and Eloy have more value to us than anything someone else is going to give us. I am hoping for another year of development, and a new culture brings out the best in both of them.  We have much bigger problems than DH and 1st base.

[ChiSox59]

20 minutes ago, T R U said:

Hes maxed out physically is what I meant but since you brought it up, we have 3 seasons of data now that are all practically identical. My money says Vaughn is what he is.

 

Hitting a baseball at the major league level is really hard, especially when you were not given the chance to develop in the minors.  AV has been very disappointing (especially in 23), but I am not ready to just write him off as he is what he is.  I think there is more in there, and I do eventually think he'll become a more well rounded offensive player, but I can understand folks losing faith in him becoming anything more than a slightly above average bat. 

That being said, there is really no option but to stick with him at this point.  He's worth more to the Sox  than what they'd get for him via trade.  

[Jake]

In the context of the White Sox organization, I just don't see any justification for moving these guys unless there's some near equivalent player in another organization who are brilliant scouts believe is about to to break out.

They haven't met our highest expectations but they're not terrible players. Maybe this is all we'll ever get, but maybe not. I continue to think Eloy has more upside but to some extent more risk due to his contract situation and defensive position. But these are the kinds of guys that a team like the White Sox would and should be expected to ride with going into next season. You don't have to feel good about it, but these are MLB players and we just don't have many of them.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Vaughn and Eloy have more value to us than anything someone else is going to give us. I am hoping for another year of development, and a new culture brings out the best in both of them.  We have much bigger problems than DH and 1st base.

Where is this new culture coming from? 

[Bob Sacamano]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Where is this new culture coming from? 

For real. If a good portion of the roster is coming back, that's not good.