Andrew Vaughn and Eloy: what's the plan here?

[Balta1701]

20 minutes ago, Jake said:

In the context of the White Sox organization, I just don't see any justification for moving these guys unless there's some near equivalent player in another organization who are brilliant scouts believe is about to to break out.

They haven't met our highest expectations but they're not terrible players. Maybe this is all we'll ever get, but maybe not. I continue to think Eloy has more upside but to some extent more risk due to his contract situation and defensive position. But these are the kinds of guys that a team like the White Sox would and should be expected to ride with going into next season. You don't have to feel good about it, but these are MLB players and we just don't have many of them.

For Vaughn, yeah I don't believe there's a strong justification for moving him. His value right now is "backup 1b", you might as well wait to see if he does anything next year before we talk about non-tendering him after 2024.

For Eloy, there is some potential benefit in clearing out the contract, and I do believe his contract is still movable. 

[GREEDY]

Deal both of them for the swingman version of themselves.  Post hype/Underachieving SP type.  The money due to Eloy will obv hurt his return.  Vaughn being a 5'10 first baseman who can't move or hit will hurt his return.  

Add two more arms to the scrap heap.  Use them along with Kopech/Crochett etc once thru the lineup every third day in April/May.  If any of them are having success you could stretch them out as the season progresses if you want to ruin a good thing.  

I'd replace Vaughn with the best defender available (as I would every position player hole), probably Rizzo.  

I'd replace Eloy with a smiley face emoji cutout in the dugout. 

 

 

[greg775]

3 hours ago, oldsox said:

Yes, and Sox will no doubt get some offers for Vaughn.  He actually hits the ball hard on occasion.  Plus, he actually hustles.  Those two attributes cover a multitude of sins.

I think you are right. They could put together an amazing highlight film package of Vaughn. He's just wildly inconsistent. He did hit .258, which is not good but it's not .220. He did have 80 rbis which for this team was MVP-like. And unlike most of the team he appears to hustle as you said and enjoy the game. If he could somehow become more consistent and lay off the bad pitches he could be a 30 to 35 homer, 110 RBI guy (old school stats). I'd work with him this offseason and get him a sports psychologist, though the Sox aren't good at that.

[greg775]

18 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

Deal both of them for the swingman version of themselves.  Post hype/Underachieving SP type.  The money due to Eloy will obv hurt his return.  Vaughn being a 5'10 first baseman who can't move or hit will hurt his return.  

Add two more arms to the scrap heap.  Use them along with Kopech/Crochett etc once thru the lineup every third day in April/May.  If any of them are having success you could stretch them out as the season progresses if you want to ruin a good thing.  

I'd replace Vaughn with the best defender available (as I would every position player hole), probably Rizzo.  

I'd replace Eloy with a smiley face emoji cutout in the dugout. 

 

 

I would trade Eloy for two GOOD pitchers. Get rid of him, Injury prone.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Not really on topic, but I hope the Sox take a run at Mark Canha this offseason.  He is not a sexy name by any means, but he seems like he'd be a great fit on a shorter term deal.  He gets on base, and is a grinder type this club badly needs.  Can take the RF job until Colas earns his reps back (whenever that may be), and then becomes a great platoon partner for him (and Beni) against LHP.  Can play RF and LF (CF and corner IFs in a pinch). 

I just really like the fit.  2/$25M should get it done.  Might even be able to get him on a 1 year deal. 

Canha would be a nice add, but I don’t see any reason he comes here unless the Sox overpay. At which point you have to question the wisdom of doing so. 

[Tnetennba]

49 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

For real. If a good portion of the roster is coming back, that's not good.

Especially with Pedro still at the helm. 

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Canha would be a nice add, but I don’t see any reason he comes here unless the Sox overpay. At which point you have to question the wisdom of doing so. 

On the free agent market, everything is an overpay, on average. You have to be willing to seemingly overpay to get guys to sign here. Guys who you think were worth $10 million a year are now getting $12 or $13 million a year because salaries are growing that quickly. Ya just gotta be prepared for it.

[JoeC]

13 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Canha would be a nice add, but I don’t see any reason he comes here unless the Sox overpay. At which point you have to question the wisdom of doing so. 

I'd question the motivation of any middle-of-the-road or high-end FA that signs here at this point.... "I would never join a club that would have someone like me as a member" kind of thing.

[bmags]

His RF numbers were fine, yet I just can't bet on a soon-to-be 35 year old who was tried for 100+ innings at first base.

[chitownsportsfan]

I def like the idea of trading Eloy for a couple A ball lotto tickets pichers or a scrap heap type prospect that is coming off injury or poor performance. We are not in a contention window, we aren't magically adding 20 WAR in the offseason. We need to start finding the next 4 guys that are going to be part of a solid rotation. Right now we might have 2 average or better SP in the entire org.

Edited October 10, 2023 by chitownsportsfan

[Bob Sacamano]

14 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I def like the idea of trading Eloy for a couple A ball lotto tickets pichers or a scrap heap type prospect that is coming off injury or poor performance. We are not in a contention window, we aren't magically adding 20 WAR in the offseason. We need to start finding the next 4 guys that are going to be part of a solid rotation. Right now we might have 2 average or better SP in the entire org.

Really struggling to figure out who the second guy you are referring to is.

Edit: unless you’re counting Clevinger still.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Where is this new culture coming from? 

Hopefully new coaches and new GM bringing in some new players.  I sure don't see how trading Vaughn and Eloy will bring in anything that will turn the franchise around.  

[chitownsportsfan]

13 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Really struggling to figure out who the second guy you are referring to is.

Edit: unless you’re counting Clevinger still.

Almost said 1.5, but I gave a full share to Clevinger as whatever my thoughts are on his off field s%*# he did have a solid year.

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Hopefully new coaches and new GM bringing in some new players.  I sure don't see how trading Vaughn and Eloy will bring in anything that will turn the franchise around.  

"We need to bring in new players to change around the culture."

"I don't see how us bringing in new players will affect the team".

Any contradiction there?

[chitownsportsfan]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

"We need to bring in new players to change around the culture."

"I don't see how us bringing in new players will affect the team".

Any contradiction there?

Change for change's sake is rarely smart but you make a good point here. Just turning over some of the roster might lead to a new better direction.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Change for change's sake is rarely smart but you make a good point here. Just turning over some of the roster might lead to a new better direction.

They can't be anymore unlikeable of a group. Gotta try anything at this point.

[MEANS]

3 hours ago, greg775 said:

I would trade Eloy for two GOOD pitchers. Get rid of him, Injury prone.

now what GM would read what you just wrote and think they should trade for Eloy?

[GREEDY]

3 hours ago, greg775 said:

I would trade Eloy for two GOOD pitchers. Get rid of him, Injury prone.

Eloy has negative value brother.  If someone thinks he's a LF you might be able to get 1 pitcher who is running out of chances... like Kopech.  

[GREEDY]

Out:  Eloy, T/A, Vaughn 

In:  Chapman, Duvall, Heyward, Rizzo, DeJong, Ahmed, Hedges

 

LF: Benintendi/Duvall

CF: Robert Jr

RF: Heyward/Duvall

3B: Chapman

SS: Ahmed/DeJong/Montgomery

2B:  Moncada

1B: Rizzo

C: Hedges/Lee

 

[chitownsportsfan]

23 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

Out:  Eloy, T/A, Vaughn 

In:  Chapman, Duvall, Heyward, Rizzo, DeJong, Ahmed, Hedges

 

LF: Benintendi/Duvall

CF: Robert Jr

RF: Heyward/Duvall

3B: Chapman

SS: Ahmed/DeJong/Montgomery

2B:  Moncada

1B: Rizzo

? Hedges/Lee

 

I don't hate that at all. If we're trying a "retool" your players in are about as good as we could hope.

[Bob Sacamano]

5 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I don't hate that at all. If we're trying a "retool" your players in are about as good as we could hope.

Like the 04-05 off-season where they brought in like 8 guys.

[Bob Sacamano]

Target free agents from teams that have been in the playoffs consistently last few years. Even if it’s just a veteran bench guy or role player type. 

[Balta1701]

58 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I don't hate that at all. If we're trying a "retool" your players in are about as good as we could hope.

What do we think the money looks like? 

Get rid of Anderson and Eloy and they're at maybe $90-100 million as a starting point, assuming no bad money comes back for Eloy.

Rizzo has a $17 million option, so assuming the Yankees turn that down let's say $12 million for him?
Matt Chapman has been a 3-4 WAR player each of the last few years, so this seems like a "team record contract" guy? Bleacher Report had him at $25 million a year a while back, let's use that number.
Duvall was 1/$7 last year and, although he didn't finish a full year, he was a lot better than he was in 2022, so it doesn't seem ridiculous to guess $10 million.
Heyward actually outhit and outplayed Duvall, so I'm going to give him 1/$7 million.
Rosario is completely up and down, I honestly don't know, I'm going to guess $7 million but feel free to disagree with me, that's Spotrac's market value on him.
DeJong: I'll just guess league minimum.
Hedges was signed for $5 million and was bad, so let's drop that down to $2 million

I've added about $70 million to the payroll, pushing the team up to basically the payroll where it was last year. Given that free agent costs always run high, I might well still have underestimated things, maybe I'm a bit high on Chapman but under on a couple other guys. The problem, of course, is that it now has a starting rotation of Cease, Kopech, Toussaint, possible undead zombie, and Urena.

They have a bullpen where their closer may need arm surgery (Santos), they have a couple of lefties in Crochet and Bummer but both were awful last year (although Crochet may have a real chance of contributing next year), and...I honestly don't know what else they even have. Does Shaw count? How many of these guys are even big leaguers? 

There's your problem. It basically takes "Spending up to last year's pay" to have a remote shot of even fixing the offense and improving the defense. You've done that...even then there are still issues such as a lack of depth and injury-prone positions and a catchers' spot that may hit .090, but you have no money left to fix the pitching staff!

You need like $70 million to bring in 2 starters, a swingman, and a couple relievers, and even then you're still relying on Kopech and Toussaint who might well be terrible! You need like $70 million to fix the offense. Unless the White Sox are going to put out a payroll to rival the Dodgers, and blow past the luxury tax line, you can't do all of this while still finding pitchers.

[Lip Man 1]

52 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

What do we think the money looks like? 

Get rid of Anderson and Eloy and they're at maybe $90-100 million as a starting point, assuming no bad money comes back for Eloy.

Rizzo has a $17 million option, so assuming the Yankees turn that down let's say $12 million for him?
Matt Chapman has been a 3-4 WAR player each of the last few years, so this seems like a "team record contract" guy? Bleacher Report had him at $25 million a year a while back, let's use that number.
Duvall was 1/$7 last year and, although he didn't finish a full year, he was a lot better than he was in 2022, so it doesn't seem ridiculous to guess $10 million.
Heyward actually outhit and outplayed Duvall, so I'm going to give him 1/$7 million.
Rosario is completely up and down, I honestly don't know, I'm going to guess $7 million but feel free to disagree with me, that's Spotrac's market value on him.
DeJong: I'll just guess league minimum.
Hedges was signed for $5 million and was bad, so let's drop that down to $2 million

I've added about $70 million to the payroll, pushing the team up to basically the payroll where it was last year. Given that free agent costs always run high, I might well still have underestimated things, maybe I'm a bit high on Chapman but under on a couple other guys. The problem, of course, is that it now has a starting rotation of Cease, Kopech, Toussaint, possible undead zombie, and Urena.

They have a bullpen where their closer may need arm surgery (Santos), they have a couple of lefties in Crochet and Bummer but both were awful last year (although Crochet may have a real chance of contributing next year), and...I honestly don't know what else they even have. Does Shaw count? How many of these guys are even big leaguers? 

There's your problem. It basically takes "Spending up to last year's pay" to have a remote shot of even fixing the offense and improving the defense. You've done that...even then there are still issues such as a lack of depth and injury-prone positions and a catchers' spot that may hit .090, but you have no money left to fix the pitching staff!

You need like $70 million to bring in 2 starters, a swingman, and a couple relievers, and even then you're still relying on Kopech and Toussaint who might well be terrible! You need like $70 million to fix the offense. Unless the White Sox are going to put out a payroll to rival the Dodgers, and blow past the luxury tax line, you can't do all of this while still finding pitchers.

Very true, they are is real deep s%*#.

[Tnetennba]

5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

On the free agent market, everything is an overpay, on average. You have to be willing to seemingly overpay to get guys to sign here. Guys who you think were worth $10 million a year are now getting $12 or $13 million a year because salaries are growing that quickly. Ya just gotta be prepared for it.

I don’t disagree, but that wasn’t my point.  If you were Canha, and you had identical $2/25 offers, and one was from the White Sox, why would he come here? Without a deal that blows others out of the water?  Canha doesn’t move the needle for this current squad, why massively overpay for another Benintendi?