Andrew Vaughn and Eloy: what's the plan here?

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I don’t disagree, but that wasn’t my point.  If you were Canha, and you had identical $2/25 offers, and one was from the White Sox, why would he come here? Without a deal that blows others out of the water?  Canha doesn’t move the needle for this current squad, why massively overpay for another Benintendi? 

The answer could absolutely be "regular playing time" as well. It could also be that one team goes to 2/$26.

[Chicago White Sox]

Not Steve Cishek is suggesting many core players are likely to be moved.  I just struggle with what that actually looks like.  Cease can still be moved for a haul, but the positional guys all have warts that limit or negate all value (outside of Robert of course).  I think Eloy still has some value, but our best opportunity to get a decent piece was at the trade deadline last year.  Regardless, I think it’s all but guaranteed he gets moved this off-season.  I also think that Moncada & Tim could get traded, but the former will require taking on bad money to move and the latter won’t get you much in return.  That being said, I think there is a real desire to nuke this clubhouse and they find a way to remove the bad apples.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Not Steve Cishek is suggesting many core players are likely to be moved.  I just struggle with what that actually looks like.  Cease can still be moved for a haul, but the positional guys all have warts that limit or negate all value (outside of Robert of course).  I think Eloy still has some value, but our best opportunity to get a decent piece was at the trade deadline last year.  Regardless, I think it’s all but guaranteed he gets moved this off-season.  I also think that Moncada & Tim could get traded, but the former will require taking on bad money to move and the latter won’t get you much in return.  That being said, I think there is a real desire to nuke this clubhouse and they find a way to remove the bad apples.

"We're going to trade Tim for a Haul so we will pick up his $14 million option but we don't actually want him on the team so I hope nothing goes wrong with this strategy" seems super familiar.

[Chicago White Sox]

18 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

"We're going to trade Tim for a Haul so we will pick up his $14 million option but we don't actually want him on the team so I hope nothing goes wrong with this strategy" seems super familiar.

Who is saying we will get a haul for him?  I’m not even fully convinced they pick up the option, but they should have some sense of his value based on deadline discussions.

[Balta1701]

19 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Who is saying we will get a haul for him?  I’m not even fully convinced they pick up the option, but they should have some sense of his value based on deadline discussions.

Catching the reference? Picking up the option on a guy who you think can be traded, but who turns out only to be worth a bad contract coming back - that was the Kimbrel set of mistakes. 

[chitownsportsfan]

@Balta1701the money isn't mine, so I don't really care if 160 million, 170 million gets us a "retool" and a 82 win projection. I just don't want to sit through another 90+ loss season as a fan.

I don't really have the stomach for a tank season, stealth or otherwise. We've had what, 4 of those in the last 7? That's enough.

Edited October 11, 2023 by chitownsportsfan

[Balta1701]

Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

@Balta1701the money isn't mine, so I don't really care if 160 million, 170 million gets us a "retool" and a 82 win projection. I just don't want to sit through another 90+ loss season as a fan.

I seriously doubt that $170 million leaves them with a projection that is any better than in the 70s. But really, is Cease, Kopech, Toussaint, Unknown, Unknown, maybe Davis Martin midseason, with that bullpen, going to get you 70 wins? Maybe if there's some miracles out of the callups.

If you had some balance to it, you spent $30 million on the hitting and $40 million on the pitching, maybe you've got a shot. Or, you have to push to $250 million, note that you didn't say you were willing to do that. 

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I seriously doubt that $170 million leaves them with a projection that is any better than in the 70s. But really, is Cease, Kopech, Toussaint, Unknown, Unknown, maybe Davis Martin midseason, with that bullpen, going to get you 70 wins? Maybe if there's some miracles out of the callups.

If you had some balance to it, you spent $30 million on the hitting and $40 million on the pitching, maybe you've got a shot. Or, you have to push to $250 million, note that you didn't say you were willing to do that. 

Every team other than the White Sox should be trending upwards in the AL Central as well...well, other than maybe the Royals, but it's difficult to imagine them being much worse.

Royce Lewis, if he can actually stay healthy, looks like he will be able to keep the Twins afloat by himself, the equivalent of Jose Ramirez for the Guardians.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Not Steve Cishek is suggesting many core players are likely to be moved.  I just struggle with what that actually looks like.  Cease can still be moved for a haul, but the positional guys all have warts that limit or negate all value (outside of Robert of course).  I think Eloy still has some value, but our best opportunity to get a decent piece was at the trade deadline last year.  Regardless, I think it’s all but guaranteed he gets moved this off-season.  I also think that Moncada & Tim could get traded, but the former will require taking on bad money to move and the latter won’t get you much in return.  That being said, I think there is a real desire to nuke this clubhouse and they find a way to remove the bad apples.

I thought I remember seeing that Hahn nearly moved Tim right before KW traded Burger. We had real smoke around Cease right up to the end too. But considering the two guys that were responsible for this years deadline are gone, I think it's too soon to really know what this new FO are planning on doing. I'd guess Tim is for sure gone. And I think they'd like to jettison Moncada and Eloy too just based on their lack of work ethic.

[Balta1701]

25 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Every team other than the White Sox should be trending upwards in the AL Central as well...well, other than maybe the Royals, but it's difficult to imagine them being much worse.

Royce Lewis, if he can actually stay healthy, looks like he will be able to keep the Twins afloat by himself, the equivalent of Jose Ramirez for the Guardians.

Well, it would certainly appear difficult for the division to wind up worse than this year, that seems true. 

[Bob Sacamano]

24 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I thought I remember seeing that Hahn nearly moved Tim right before KW traded Burger. We had real smoke around Cease right up to the end too. But considering the two guys that were responsible for this years deadline are gone, I think it's too soon to really know what this new FO are planning on doing. I'd guess Tim is for sure gone. And I think they'd like to jettison Moncada and Eloy too just based on their lack of work ethic.

Wouldn’t be mad about that.

[chw42]

I've got a feeling the FO is going to sign Whit Merrifield and we'll just have to deal with it. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Catching the reference? Picking up the option on a guy who you think can be traded, but who turns out only to be worth a bad contract coming back - that was the Kimbrel set of mistakes. 

AJ Pollock was a bad contract?  He was coming off a 3.1 win season when we traded for him and came at a really reasonable cost.  Obviously thinking he could play RF was a huge gaffe, but no one thought he was going to fall off a cliff with the bat so quickly.  Not totally giving them a free pass there, but he would got a higher guarantee in free agency given Michael Brantley had gotten 2/$32M the off-season before at a similar age and with a similar profile.  There was definitely some expected surplus value at the time of the trade.  You can’t evaluate a move entirely with the benefit of hindsight.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

AJ Pollock was a bad contract?  He was coming off a 3.1 win season when we traded for him and came at a really reasonable cost.  Obviously thinking he could play RF was a huge gaffe, but no one thought he was going to fall off a cliff with the bat so quickly.  Not totally giving them a free pass there, but he would got a higher guarantee in free agency given Michael Brantley had gotten 2/$32M the off-season before at a similar age and with a similar profile.  There was definitely some expected surplus value at the time of the trade.  You can’t evaluate a move entirely with the benefit of hindsight.

You can say this all you want but in the end the right decision was to turn down Kimbrel’s option and look elsewhere. That was true in November 2021, March 2022, and September 2022. You’d be complaining louder if the White Sox’s organization wasn’t so awful that Pollock turned down money to leave, too.

[South Side Hit Men]

8 hours ago, GREEDY said:

Eloy has negative value brother.  If someone thinks he's a LF you might be able to get 1 pitcher who is running out of chances... like Kopech.  

They would get far less than Jake Eder. They would never get anyone close to Kopech's ability. Jake Burger is a far superior player to Eloy, at a far superior contract.

There were rumors after 2021 the Marlins were interested in Eloy and Yermin for a starting pitcher, possibly Pablo Lopez, but Hahn's team was on the floor, and he was satisfied with several DH/1B clogging up the 13 position players on his roster.

Edited October 11, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[GREEDY]

8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

They would get far less than Jake Eder.

Trust me, I'm the one trying to tell people he has negative value.  I was just stating his absolute maximum return.

If you are moving on from him it is for the money and/or the cleaning of the clubhouse... not the return.  

With all of the free agents still on the board it is way to enticing this time of year to not repurpose his money and replace him with a vet minimum DH or pre-arb player.  Getting DH production from the clouds seems like one of the easiest boxes to check this offseason.  

[T R U]

13 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

AJ Pollock was a bad contract?  He was coming off a 3.1 win season when we traded for him and came at a really reasonable cost.  Obviously thinking he could play RF was a huge gaffe, but no one thought he was going to fall off a cliff with the bat so quickly.  Not totally giving them a free pass there, but he would got a higher guarantee in free agency given Michael Brantley had gotten 2/$32M the off-season before at a similar age and with a similar profile.  There was definitely some expected surplus value at the time of the trade.  You can’t evaluate a move entirely with the benefit of hindsight.

The problem was they thought they could pick up Kimbrel's option and then flip him for a nice return to make up for what they traded to get him.

In reality, the only thing we could get was a 34 year OFer that we tried to play out of position who was terrible.

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, GREEDY said:

Trust me, I'm the one trying to tell people he has negative value.  I was just stating his absolute maximum return.

If you are moving on from him it is for the money and/or the cleaning of the clubhouse... not the return.  

With all of the free agents still on the board it is way to enticing this time of year to not repurpose his money and replace him with a vet minimum DH or pre-arb player.  Getting DH production from the clouds seems like one of the easiest boxes to check this offseason.  

With only 4 bench spots, I would never target acquiring an everyday DH, unless they were truly an elite 4-5 + WAR type player like an Ohtani, Frank Thomas, Yordan Alverez, Edgar Martinez truly elite / HOF type of player. 

Would rather have a solid hitter who can also field 1 or more positions rotate in and out with your best 4-5 hitters getting rest from the field. If Getz can do just that and nothing else, it will be an improvement over Hahn., will add a few wins a year just on roster construction. Add injury & IL management to the mix for a few more wins.

[chitownsportsfan]

If we're just gonna suck (not spend any money) I'd just give DH to Sheets. If we're "retooling" who knows. It does speak volumes that we don't really even have decent DH out of Vaughn, Sheets and Eloy. That's a lot of draft and prospect capital that didn't pan out.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

If we're just gonna suck (not spend any money) I'd just give DH to Sheets. If we're "retooling" who knows. It does speak volumes that we don't really even have decent DH out of Vaughn, Sheets and Eloy. That's a lot of draft and prospect capital that didn't pan out.

1. Clearly they are going to have to spend some money. Their starting rotation right now is Cease, Kopech, Toussaint, Zombie, Dracula, Scholtens, Lambert. Even if they decide to alienate their fanbase with a domestic violence issue, they still need arms here. Further, their bullpen is tolerable from the LH side, but if Santos has a serious injury (which seems likely), their best right handed reliever is, I guess, Bryan Shaw? They need people here just to fill out a roster.

2. I have no problem having a weaker hitter at DH for now. However, I absolutely want it to be someone who can play a position, and Gavin Sheets can play no where on the diamond other than 1b. Go spend the money on a Duvall or something like that, so that he can play the OF part time, DH part time, and you have a backup for Robert on the roster for at least part of the year.