Harry Chappas Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 18 hours ago, Texsox said: I'm willing to give Pedro another year with almost a new, plus it will be his, staff. All new hitting which is huge. Wasn't last year's staff all his guys except Katz and Boston. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 14 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said: Wasn't last year's staff all his guys except Katz and Boston. yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 19 hours ago, Boopa1219 said: I don’t know if he’ll get to pick the hitting coach. It seems like most GMs make that hire themselves these days. And I don’t get why everyone thinks Katz should’ve been fired. Look at the garbage he had to work with but there were some guys who took steps. Santos was a nice discovery, Scholtens another one. There were also signs of life from Toussaint and Urena. Urena got hosed by a stupid Grilfol decision in one game where he didnt give up a run for 6 innings then Grifol left him in to get beat up and the relief pitching completed the final line of 6 earned runs in 6.1 innings. However Urena is 32 and never was very good but maybe long or short relief next year . His control isn't that good either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: There were also signs of life from Toussaint and Urena. Urena got hosed by a stupid Grilfol decision in one game where he didnt give up a run for 6 innings then Grifol left him in to get beat up and the relief pitching completed the final line of 6 earned runs in 6.1 innings. However Urena is 32 and never was very good but maybe long or short relief next year . His control isn't that good either. "Signs of life"? Come on man, Touki had an ERA near 5 and that almost perfectly matches his career marks. His WHIP almost matches his career marks. He is a guy who on a normal team is an 8th or 9th starter option, he fills in when your actual backup plans are used up because he's been hanging out on some team's minor league roster and he can be claimed or picked up easily and he has a bit of experience. Urena had a 4.1 ERA with the White Sox thanks in part to a .250 BABIP in 26 innings - he's in the same boat. They did how they normally do, give them enough innings and they wind up with an ERA of about 5 and your team doesn't fall apart on day 1 from them. But neither of them deserve anything other than the small paycheck they got for filling that role, there's no compliment to the pitching coach for 9th starters coming in and putting up ERAs around 5. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: "Signs of life"? Come on man, Touki had an ERA near 5 and that almost perfectly matches his career marks. His WHIP almost matches his career marks. He is a guy who on a normal team is an 8th or 9th starter option, he fills in when your actual backup plans are used up because he's been hanging out on some team's minor league roster and he can be claimed or picked up easily and he has a bit of experience. Urena had a 4.1 ERA with the White Sox thanks in part to a .250 BABIP in 26 innings - he's in the same boat. They did how they normally do, give them enough innings and they wind up with an ERA of about 5 and your team doesn't fall apart on day 1 from them. But neither of them deserve anything other than the small paycheck they got for filling that role, there's no compliment to the pitching coach for 9th starters coming in and putting up ERAs around 5. No need for me to defend myself because you are right. However I guess it's all how you interpret what I meant by signs of life. Sometimes they looked good , sometimes bad. I think a 5 ERA would indicate that. Giolito looked just as bad if not worse after he was traded. Basically after they traded all the pitching I didnt expect much but those guys still might be in consideration for next year be it MLB or minor league contracts since the starting pitching depth is abysmal and I can't imagine them signing an above average FA starting pitcher. I'm guessing Touki will be back since he's eligible for arbitration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, bmags said: I think Katz strategy of avoiding balls in play at all cost makes a lot of sense given the defense behind our pitchers and the collection of arms collected/underdeveloped. It takes a great bullpen to pull that off. Starters' pitch counts rise drastically with all of the walks and lack of quick out. You'll need high leverage relievers from the 5th inning on. It may minimize the damage when you kind of suck. But I don't see that as a championship strategy. And I hope he knocks it off starting next season. Rangers starters didn't walk anyone against a team that likes to walk. They won 2 road games in absolute hand-rides. Edited October 5, 2023 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 I think a sign of "how bad was Katz" could have been the pitchers we shipped out performing significantly better, as we did with Burger. We shipped out: Middleton Lopez Lynn Giolito Kelly Graveman I will admit this is kinda s%*# because I just want to do it faster but yes indeed this is 1st half / second half so not that clean Middleton 3.09 | 3.86 Lopez 4.74 | 1.29 Lynn 6.03 | 5.36 Giolito 3.45 | 7.13 Kelly 4.82 | 2.38 Graveman 2.93 | 3.42 I am less of a stickler for the relievers. I think a lot of that is pretty random. Lopez had a horrendous april, but was pretty good after that. Joe Kelly's ERA halved, but also pitched way less on the Dodgers and likely had the benefit of much better matchups. Lynn did improve ...but he was still garbage. Giolito completely faded. Obviously, "did neutral" isn't a reason to keep around someone when you need to have an edge in coaching. But, I do think the talent on the sox last year was particularly garbage. They also pitch in front of awful defense. They have bad catching. They were undermanned and over pitched. San Francisco has an interesting enough pitching operation that I'm willing to let Katz/Bannister implement more of it and expect better talent. They have done well with older, FA pitching options and there are many of those this year. But if you fired him, sure, he oversaw garbage. But I think a LOT of this was a factor of having the worlds worst pitching in Charlotte, and needing to tap into a lot of that "talent" 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 19 minutes ago, GreenSox said: It takes a great bullpen to pull that off. Starters' pitch counts rise drastically with all of the walks and lack of quick out. You'll need high leverage relievers from the 5th inning on. It may minimize the damage when you kind of suck. But I don't see that as a championship strategy. And I hope he knocks it off starting next season. Rangers starters didn't walk anyone against a team that likes to walk. They won 2 road games in absolute hand-rides. I agree - but the talent at hand lent itself to this strategy imo. How many of our pitching prospects had an m.o. of "likely bullpen due to command"? He leaned into that, kinda successfully?, but i'm OPEN to seeing him perform with Bannister on a different set of pitchers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, bmags said: I agree - but the talent at hand lent itself to this strategy imo. How many of our pitching prospects had an m.o. of "likely bullpen due to command"? He leaned into that, kinda successfully?, but i'm OPEN to seeing him perform with Bannister on a different set of pitchers. I hear you and I'm not pining for Katz' dismissal or anything. But our starting staff wasn't supposed to suck, with Giolito, Cease and Lynn expected to be top-shelf starters. Kopech was a WIP and then a 5th starter. Edited October 5, 2023 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 We all remember the Colas and Romy Gonzalez sessions all summer with Mike Tosar. That did not turn out well. https://theathletic.com/4254269/2023/02/27/white-sox-oscar-colas-romy-gonzalez/ Colas was just downright terrible hitting and fielding. He was either incredibly over rated for his 1 year in the minors, which frankly was pretty impressive, but woefully under prepared to face MLB pitching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 10 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: We all remember the Colas and Romy Gonzalez sessions all summer with Mike Tosar. That did not turn out well. https://theathletic.com/4254269/2023/02/27/white-sox-oscar-colas-romy-gonzalez/ Colas was just downright terrible hitting and fielding. He was either incredibly over rated for his 1 year in the minors, which frankly was pretty impressive, but woefully under prepared to face MLB pitching. As I've gotten older, I hope I'm now capable of not lying to myself. I really hoped Colas could be the answer this year, and got defensive when Keith Law was shocked when sox said he'd be their starting right fielder saying his approach was nowhere near ready. Sure enough, he had like a negative wRC+ when he came up. I think that means the umpires started calling 2 outs every time he came up because he was so bad we all wanted the games to end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Sounds like Andy Barkett is out too. Some of these guys may turn out to be part of strong orgs, we don’t know. But kudos to Getz so far for recognizing a house cleaning was due for even if it means we still have grifol/getz 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 11 hours ago, bmags said: Sounds like Andy Barkett is out too. Some of these guys may turn out to be part of strong orgs, we don’t know. But kudos to Getz so far for recognizing a house cleaning was due for even if it means we still have grifol/getz I'll wait for results. Oh wait we seen the results of the manager that may survive in a Hahnlike manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 19 hours ago, kitekrazy said: I'll wait for results. Oh wait we seen the results of the manager that may survive in a Hahnlike manner. For me who is managing the dead-in-the-water team in 2024 is the least consequential hire. Getting a real operation in place for the minors/draft/scouting is going to be way more important to winning. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 11 hours ago, bmags said: For me who is managing the dead-in-the-water team in 2024 is the least consequential hire. Getting a real operation in place for the minors/draft/scouting is going to be way more important to winning. I see the point, but if you want players to play with total accountability , you should probably hold their manager accountable. Plus, if you are at least looking for some step forward next season, this guy has already proved he's not the guy to lead you that way. I also think they would be able to bring in better coaches firing him. Everyone knows he's a lameduck. What kind of coaches are going to be attracted to a most likely one and down job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: I see the point, but if you want players to play with total accountability , you should probably hold their manager accountable. Plus, if you are at least looking for some step forward next season, this guy has already proved he's not the guy to lead you that way. I also think they would be able to bring in better coaches firing him. Everyone knows he's a lameduck. What kind of coaches are going to be attracted to a most likely one and down job? I guess my same response is looking at this roster I could easily see a 2025 roster with like 70% turnover so Grifol's cosplay is fine. Bannister adding to the pitching development should help develop the nastrini's, etc. I wouldn't keep Grifol but the bigger impact is going to be made off the mlb roster so if they put more focus there, i'll take it. Basically bruce bochy being hired with little to no changes to our PD/Scouting in the minors is worse than keeping Grifol with wholesale changes on that side. But obviously because it is the white sox, no, we cannot have both. Never can do the normal things winning teams do. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 30 minutes ago, bmags said: I guess my same response is looking at this roster I could easily see a 2025 roster with like 70% turnover so Grifol's cosplay is fine. Bannister adding to the pitching development should help develop the nastrini's, etc. I wouldn't keep Grifol but the bigger impact is going to be made off the mlb roster so if they put more focus there, i'll take it. Basically bruce bochy being hired with little to no changes to our PD/Scouting in the minors is worse than keeping Grifol with wholesale changes on that side. But obviously because it is the white sox, no, we cannot have both. Never can do the normal things winning teams do. I just think you have to get rid of him. Cost wise, it's next to nothing. Reading Bob's last column, it would be an upset if Pedro made $1 million a year. His cost is a minimum contract player. Show everyone you really want to be better. Show them that 2024 is the start of something new. Having that clown around won't convince anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 31 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: I just think you have to get rid of him. Cost wise, it's next to nothing. Reading Bob's last column, it would be an upset if Pedro made $1 million a year. His cost is a minimum contract player. Show everyone you really want to be better. Show them that 2024 is the start of something new. Having that clown around won't convince anyone. I truly believe my theory from the other day is correct. They’re stretching out the “look, we’re holding people accountable and making changes to improve the team” over two seasons. Some coaches this year, and the manager and some other coaches next year. Really depending on the fans being complete morons and eating it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 16 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said: I truly believe my theory from the other day is correct. They’re stretching out the “look, we’re holding people accountable and making changes to improve the team” over two seasons. Some coaches this year, and the manager and some other coaches next year. Really depending on the fans being complete morons and eating it up. I think it's just that Jerry likes Pedro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said: I truly believe my theory from the other day is correct. They’re stretching out the “look, we’re holding people accountable and making changes to improve the team” over two seasons. Some coaches this year, and the manager and some other coaches next year. Really depending on the fans being complete morons and eating it up. I get that too, and I thought the same thing. But just admit, 2024 is a transition year, hire a manager that gives you hope, and a coaching staff that can get things done. They have to get rid of the stench. JR talked about not wasting a year. Bringing Pedro back wastes a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, bmags said: I think it's just that Jerry likes Pedro. I don’t think even JR could look at the results and like him. 3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: I get that too, and I thought the same thing. But just admit, 2024 is a transition year, hire a manager that gives you hope, and a coaching staff that can get things done. They have to get rid of the stench. JR talked about not wasting a year. Bringing Pedro back wastes a year. He doesn’t care about wasting a year. He’s just wringing out the last bit of money from the team and fanbase before he kicks it. He’s saying and doing the minimum to try to sell the idea that they’re attempting to improve/compete, but that’s just to keep the money coming his way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said: I don’t think even JR could look at the results and like him. He doesn’t care about wasting a year. He’s just wringing out the last bit of money from the team and fanbase before he kicks it. He’s saying and doing the minimum to try to sell the idea that they’re attempting to improve/compete, but that’s just to keep the money coming his way. I don't think you don't think that man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 5 minutes ago, bmags said: I don't think you don't think that man There was a story in the middle of the season that suggested JR wasn't a big fan of Pedro. That could have changed, and we all know Pedro is a world class brown nose. Some people eat that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: There was a story in the middle of the season that suggested JR wasn't a big fan of Pedro. That could have changed, and we all know Pedro is a world class brown nose. Some people eat that up. I just don't believe it. If JR really hated him I can't believe he'd be here. I truly think that outside 2005, the 2015 royals were probably JR's ideal version of baseball and I think Pedro is both a kiss-ass and also telling JR what he wants to hear: - Prospects are risky - Old vets like Andrus are great - Primadonna high played players are bad - Bullpen is important and where you should spend your money, not your starters It's like just a beautiful story he can put together for Jerry. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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