MLB Trade Rumors - Chicago White Sox Offseason Outlook - by Tim Dierkes

[JoeC]

21 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

And the other 2 were so great at it they were fired. Getz will have to work his first deadline sometime. If a change was warranted, and obviously it was, you can't let those dopes do more damage. JR fired them. You almost have to try to be incompetent enough for that to happen.

IMO, the only conceivable logical explanation is that the trade deadline was the "one last chance" for Rick and Kenny.

Once the deadline results really started to roll in (namely, Burger catching fire after being sold for pennies on the dollar), Jerry fired them.

My guess is that it's still just another sign of organizational incompetence, but the above could be a potentially conceivable scenario in a competent organization.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

IMO, the only conceivable logical explanation is that the trade deadline was the "one last chance" for Rick and Kenny.

Once the deadline results really started to roll in (namely, Burger catching fire after being sold for pennies on the dollar), Jerry fired them.

My guess is that it's still just another sign of organizational incompetence, but the above could be a potentially conceivable scenario in a competent organization.

I don't buy this either - evaluating 'trading for prospects' based on how they looked in their first 3 weeks in the organization seems like the worst idea ever. You'd have to be a complete fool to make huge business decisions based on that.

The only way the trade deadline itself could have played into this is either: Reinsdorf really is that much of a fool to evaluate people based on 3 weeks of performance, or Reinsdorf rejected Hahn and Williams's philosophy at the trade deadline and decided to go in a different way. 

This one might be possible, that Reinsdorf believes the White Sox are still competitive and one or two players away, and thus that rather than trading away players they should have dealt a top prospect for Salvador Perez, and Hahn and Williams did not believe that they were in a spot to be adding players when they were 20 games below .500. So, Reinsdorf decided to remove Hahn and Williams and replace them with someone who will act on his "Win now but without spending too much money" desire. 

[Kyyle23]

51 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't buy this either - evaluating 'trading for prospects' based on how they looked in their first 3 weeks in the organization seems like the worst idea ever. You'd have to be a complete fool to make huge business decisions based on that.

The only way the trade deadline itself could have played into this is either: Reinsdorf really is that much of a fool to evaluate people based on 3 weeks of performance, or Reinsdorf rejected Hahn and Williams's philosophy at the trade deadline and decided to go in a different way. 

This one might be possible, that Reinsdorf believes the White Sox are still competitive and one or two players away, and thus that rather than trading away players they should have dealt a top prospect for Salvador Perez, and Hahn and Williams did not believe that they were in a spot to be adding players when they were 20 games below .500. So, Reinsdorf decided to remove Hahn and Williams and replace them with someone who will act on his "Win now but without spending too much money" desire. 

I don’t think any of us can actually come up with a logical reason for what happened, there just is none.

one day a book will be written about some of the nonsense the last 15 years, and there will definitely be a part where they address the press conference after the firing and how nobody understood what the hell was happening 

[JoeC]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't buy this either - evaluating 'trading for prospects' based on how they looked in their first 3 weeks in the organization seems like the worst idea ever. You'd have to be a complete fool to make huge business decisions based on that.

The only way the trade deadline itself could have played into this is either: Reinsdorf really is that much of a fool to evaluate people based on 3 weeks of performance, or Reinsdorf rejected Hahn and Williams's philosophy at the trade deadline and decided to go in a different way. 

This one might be possible, that Reinsdorf believes the White Sox are still competitive and one or two players away, and thus that rather than trading away players they should have dealt a top prospect for Salvador Perez, and Hahn and Williams did not believe that they were in a spot to be adding players when they were 20 games below .500. So, Reinsdorf decided to remove Hahn and Williams and replace them with someone who will act on his "Win now but without spending too much money" desire. 

Well, the other way to look at how JR could "logically" (note the quotes) judge the trade deadline is based on whatever Hahn / KW told them. Among other lines of bullshit, we were told that they got rid of the negative influences in the clubhouse. The implication was that these negative influences were causing the team to play poorly and lose.

Of course this is all pure speculation, but I could see Hahn trying to make one final plea that the big league team would somehow be better after the deadline, then JR waiting to fire him until after that ploy obviously failed.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Well, the other way to look at how JR could "logically" (note the quotes) judge the trade deadline is based on whatever Hahn / KW told them. Among other lines of bullshit, we were told that they got rid of the negative influences in the clubhouse. The implication was that these negative influences were causing the team to play poorly and lose.

Of course this is all pure speculation, but I could see Hahn trying to make one final plea that the big league team would somehow be better after the deadline, then JR waiting to fire him until after that ploy obviously failed.

As little as I respect Rick Hahn, he can't possibly have believed this team would be better after clearing out the guys they moved, and the only way he would possibly try to convince Reinsdorf of that is if he believed Reinsdorf was no longer physically or mentally able to do his job. 

Rick Hahn traded the guys who needed to be traded because of their contract status. The only optional one was Burger, but moving him still made sense - you can question the return, but moving a guy with his injury history who also plays the same position as Moncada was something I suggested made sense repeatedly. The only guy who he should have traded who didn't move was a guy who was unmovable for reasons unrelated to baseball. In the process, he actually strengthened the White Sox's system and organization, and took advantage of a hot market for pitching of any quality.

You can quibble with the returns, but Rick Hahn made moves consistent with him believing he would be here for several years to see through this fix-it process. 

[JoeC]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

As little as I respect Rick Hahn, he can't possibly have believed this team would be better after clearing out the guys they moved, and the only way he would possibly try to convince Reinsdorf of that is if he believed Reinsdorf was no longer physically or mentally able to do his job. 

Rick Hahn traded the guys who needed to be traded because of their contract status. The only optional one was Burger, but moving him still made sense - you can question the return, but moving a guy with his injury history who also plays the same position as Moncada was something I suggested made sense repeatedly. The only guy who he should have traded who didn't move was a guy who was unmovable for reasons unrelated to baseball. In the process, he actually strengthened the White Sox's system and organization, and took advantage of a hot market for pitching of any quality.

You can quibble with the returns, but Rick Hahn made moves consistent with him believing he would be here for several years to see through this fix-it process. 

I'm not disagreeing much, really.

The only thing I would say is that Hahn had to know he's on thin ice; when some people are desperate and know the inevitable outcome, they grasp at straws to try to save themselves.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, JoeC said:

I'm not disagreeing much, really.

The only thing I would say is that Hahn had to know he's on thin ice; when some people are desperate and know the inevitable outcome, they grasp at straws to try to save themselves.

My version of "Rick Hahn grasping at straws" was always 2016. Dumping Danks early, dumping Latos, dumping Rollins, bringing up Anderson before he should have been called up, and of course trading for James Shields - those were "Desperation must compete to save my job" kinda moves. 

[South Side Hit Men]

9 hours ago, JoeC said:

IMO, the only conceivable logical explanation is that the trade deadline was the "one last chance" for Rick and Kenny.

Once the deadline results really started to roll in (namely, Burger catching fire after being sold for pennies on the dollar), Jerry fired them.

My guess is that it's still just another sign of organizational incompetence, but the above could be a potentially conceivable scenario in a competent organization.

Jerry cannot evaluate player talent, and neither could his decade tenured GM.

Jerry still wanted to give Rick Ken more time, same as keeping Gar Pax forever before his son purged them, but he only acted because the person he most values and trusts, TLR, told Jerry it was clearly time for a change, reinforcing conversations with Getz. Likely an owner or two also spoke with him in Cooperstown as further reinforcement that this was the best option.

The same act that played out in 1985 (Hawk discussing games, team issues and solutions with Jerry) played out with Getz planting seeds in Jerry’s ear.

Getz got a promotion, Tony got revenge for Ken & Rick undermining him since being hired. This is all very clear based on what came out the past few months, by people without an agenda or vested interest in what went down in clown world, which is exactly how this has played out with Jerry over the decades.

Edited October 26, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Jerry cannot evaluate player talent, and neither could his decade tenured GM.

Jerry still wanted to give Rick Ken more time, same as keeping Gar Pax forever before his son purged them, but he only acted because the person he most values and trusts, TLR, told Jerry it was clearly time for a change, reinforcing conversations with Getz. Likely an owner or two also spoke with him in Cooperstown as further reinforcement that this was the best option.

The same act that played out in 1985 (Hawk discussing games, team issues and solutions with Jerry) played out with Getz planting seeds in Jerry’s ear.

Getz got a promotion, Tony got revenge for Ken & Rick undermining him since being hired. This is all very clear based on what came out the past few months, by people without an agenda or vested interest in what went down in clown world, which is exactly how this has played out with Jerry over the decades.

On 10/23/2023 at 10:33 PM, South Side Hit Men said:

Last update for me this postseason. Will return to SoxTalk after Kim Ng is hired and or the Sox do something of importance.

So are you Chris Russoing us or did the White Sox do something of importance? 

[GreenSox]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't buy this either - evaluating 'trading for prospects' based on how they looked in their first 3 weeks in the organization seems like the worst idea ever. You'd have to be a complete fool to make huge business decisions based on that.

 

I doubt that JR's perception of the quality of those deals had anything to do with it. BUT the workings of the Burger deal did reveal dysfunction between Williams and Hahn, which might have been the "tipping point" for JR.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

I doubt that JR's perception of the quality of those deals had anything to do with it. BUT the workings of the Burger deal did reveal dysfunction between Williams and Hahn, which might have been the "tipping point" for JR.

I’d say that was fair…except the person who allowed that arrangement was (checks notes) Owner Jerry Reinsdorf.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

So are you Chris Russoing us or did the White Sox do something of importance? 

Not sure if the Russo reference, but responded to loose ends / responses including your TV ratings post. 

Will not watch a second of the WS, including tracking White Sox alumni. Will track MLB trade rumors for Sox updates unless someone posts a response to an earlier post by me that requires a response.

[Sleepy Harold]

8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Not sure if the Russo reference, but responded to loose ends / responses including your TV ratings post. 

Will not watch a second of the WS, including tracking White Sox alumni. Will track MLB trade rumors for Sox updates unless someone posts a response to an earlier post by me that requires a response.

Russo said he'd retire if the Dbacks won game 7, and "shockingly" did not in fact retire after they won.

[Sleepy Harold]

16 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Not sure if the Russo reference, but responded to loose ends / responses including your TV ratings post. 

Will not watch a second of the WS, including tracking White Sox alumni. Will track MLB trade rumors for Sox updates unless someone posts a response to an earlier post by me that requires a response.

Here's the context for you.

[pcq]

Just heard the announcement on News Radio 105.9. No new deals so far. 

[Dick Allen]

With the Padres and Astros jobs opening up, do you think either team will request permission to speak to Pedro about taking over their team.

[Tnetennba]

23 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

With the Padres and Astros jobs opening up, do you think either team will request permission to speak to Pedro about taking over their team.

We Sox fans would never be so lucky…

[DirtySox]

Power rankings for next season. Let's go!

 

[Chisoxmb35]

On 10/24/2023 at 2:40 PM, Dick Allen said:

And the other 2 were so great at it they were fired. Getz will have to work his first deadline someime. If a change was warranted, and obviously it was, you can't let those dopes do more damage. JR fired them. You almost have to try to be incompetent enough for that to happen.

We aren't even sure if that's why they were fired though? We ASSUME it was incompetence, but that's never triggered Jerry with EITHER of his teams in the past?  We know they were incompetent, but let's not obfuscate that with the ACTUAL reason Jerry fired them (and that we can only speculate on).

Edited November 2, 2023 by Chisoxmb35

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Chisoxmb35 said:

We aren't even sure if that's why they were fired though? We ASSUME it was incompetence, but that's never triggered Jerry with EITHER of his teams in the past?  We know they were incompetent, but let's not obfuscate that with the ACTUAL reason Jerry fired them (and that we can only speculate on).

The more I see how they're going right now, the more I think the reason they were fired is that they were too honest with JR. I think JR believes that this team is 1 or 2 players away right now, and if his GM is off doing rebuilding trades and saying that they just can't be at the top in 2024, well then he needs a GM who will agree with him.

[Tnetennba]

Let the offseason begin. Can't wait for the White Sox to find new and interesting ways to disappoint, with even the lowest of expectations.

[Chisoxfn]

On 10/25/2023 at 3:03 PM, Balta1701 said:

As little as I respect Rick Hahn, he can't possibly have believed this team would be better after clearing out the guys they moved, and the only way he would possibly try to convince Reinsdorf of that is if he believed Reinsdorf was no longer physically or mentally able to do his job. 

Rick Hahn traded the guys who needed to be traded because of their contract status. The only optional one was Burger, but moving him still made sense - you can question the return, but moving a guy with his injury history who also plays the same position as Moncada was something I suggested made sense repeatedly. The only guy who he should have traded who didn't move was a guy who was unmovable for reasons unrelated to baseball. In the process, he actually strengthened the White Sox's system and organization, and took advantage of a hot market for pitching of any quality.

You can quibble with the returns, but Rick Hahn made moves consistent with him believing he would be here for several years to see through this fix-it process. 

This is spot on.  We can argue the return for Burger, but the logic to move him and get depth in other places was there.  I always said you had to get value if you moved him, but that was based upon where if Burger made some strides in certain areas - he would have been a pretty valuable cost controlled player. 

The inverse was - he didn't make those changes and regressed slightly and/or had another injury, in which case you had a chance to get asset(s) for him and ended up with nothing.   

[GreenSox]

On 10/25/2023 at 5:29 PM, Balta1701 said:

My version of "Rick Hahn grasping at straws" was always 2016. Dumping Danks early, dumping Latos, dumping Rollins, bringing up Anderson before he should have been called up, and of course trading for James Shields - those were "Desperation must compete to save my job" kinda moves. 

As well as the 2016 draft. I sure wish JR did informed Hahn that he had a long-term contract. Maybe Hahn  wouldn’t have made those desperation moves.

The Samardzija trade annoys me even more.  Hahn actually thought that he had made  a great move. He was strutting and preening after that trade.

[oldsox]

2 hours ago, GreenSox said:

As well as the 2016 draft. I sure wish JR did informed Hahn that he had a long-term contract. Maybe Hahn  wouldn’t have made those desperation moves.

The Samardzija trade annoys me even more.  Hahn actually thought that he had made  a great move. He was strutting and preening after that trade.

Refresh my memory...

[GreenSox]

31 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Refresh my memory...

Wasn't that Burdi to rush to the bullpen (Hahn was successful in that effort).
Collins who would be quick to the majors at a needed position.
Etc. etc.  1 high school player signed in the entire draft.

Edited November 3, 2023 by GreenSox