Seems like a missed opportunity

[bmags]

10 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

He's a bottleneck on the bases. He seems like the typical KW pick. 

The Sox have a history of trying to develop plays at a position of need.  I still remember them,trying Viciedo and Fields at 3rd. They even put Yermin behind the plate at Charlotte.

Hopefully Getz doesn't work that way.

I love calling this the typical KW pick because pre draft this board was apoplectic about possibly going Abrams over Vaughn because Abram’s was just a typical KW “athlete” pick.

[Dick Allen]

17 hours ago, bmags said:

I don’t know man. I feel like the other side of the story is “don’t draft a first baseman too 3”. A hell of a lot of the WAR above is the sides of baseball Vaughn would never touch on any team.

I bet the Braves in the late 80s wish they didn’t overthink it and drafter Frank Thomas instead of Tyler Houston. Frank has said the Braves were going to take him.

 

As far as Vaughn is concerned, they did mess with him. They probably rushed him. Other scouts thought he was the second coming of Goldschmidt. Another said he was Konerko on steroids. Non White Sox guys. The thing that has really disappointed me is when he was drafted he had a reputation of having a great idea of the strike zone, and was willing to take walks. That seems to have been a miscalculation or just went by the wayside for some reason. Maybe he gets that back. But we are getting to the point where he is about to be what he is, and while not awful, not why you lose 99 games to acquire.

[Texsox]

I'm certain Vaughn wishes he spent more time in the minors. Riding buses. Working with the minor league staffs. The stuff dreams are made of. He probably fought like crazy to not be moved up. Told them repeatedly he couldn't play the outfield. But they didn't listen. 

[Eminor3rd]

11 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I'm certain Vaughn wishes he spent more time in the minors. Riding buses. Working with the minor league staffs. The stuff dreams are made of. He probably fought like crazy to not be moved up. Told them repeatedly he couldn't play the outfield. But they didn't listen. 

That doesn’t mean it wasn’t best for him to be down there. I’m certain he wants to grow into a star player who signs a nine figure contract at some point in his career, and I bet you he’d happily trade another year of buses to get there, because right now he’s on track to be a journeyman that runs out of opportunities in his early 30s.

Now, that’s not totally fair, because we don’t know that he actually did need another year, or what, if anything, could actually be done with him to help, because we’re not professionals. But again, there’s a sharp contrast between what we can see the Sox are choosing to do and what every other team is doing, and it’s part of a consistent pattern of disappointment, so I think it’s fair to assume the odds are better than a coin flip that there was a more productive path that existed.

My entire adult life, the only thing I’ve ever heard any White Sox coach say about a developing hitter is something along the lines of “we want him to be more aggressive/more aggressive in the zone,” and that sure doesn’t seem like something Vaughn would have needed, but strangely does seem like the way he’s changed since arriving. Other teams talk about swing changes to generate lift and pitch selection training, which, for gifted contact hitters with good eyes and discipline that aren’t getting to enough of their raw power (like Baughn), sounds like exactly what is needed. But that takes time, and requires a willingness to accept bumps on the road. And there never any indication that something like that was even on the table from the Sox.

Despite the doublespeak about sustainable winning, their treatment of Vaughn reads like a case study of “push all in to win now” at the clear enormous expense of even the near future. Sacrifice Vaughn’s upside to get a passable bat in the OF right now, as if it was the only way to get such a bat. It’s straight from the Mark Teahen-era Sox playbook, and it’s at the center of what made them failures the whole time — unfailingly choosing the most expensive/least efficient way to get something they need.

Vaughn may yet figure out how to tap into his upside, but he’s going to have to do it on his own. And both him and the fans deserve better than that. 

[GreenSox]

38 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The thing that has really disappointed me is when he was drafted he had a reputation of having a great idea of the strike zone, and was willing to take walks. That seems to have been a miscalculation or just went by the wayside for some reason. Maybe he gets that back. But we are getting to the point where he is about to be what he is, and while not awful, not why you lose 99 games to acquire.

The White Sox under Williams/Hahn had an enduring record of squeezing those tendencies out of young players (and not-so-young as well).
Changing that should be #1 on the list of this new regime.

[caulfield12]

https://www.milb.com/player/evan-carter-694497

Vaughn had just 212 milb at-bats.

Even Evan Carter at his young age of 21 had nearly 1000 as a raw high school athlete out of eastern Tennessee. 

And a second round pick...which the White Sox consistently miss on.

Edited October 28, 2023 by caulfield12

[Bob Sacamano]

4 hours ago, Texsox said:

I'm certain Vaughn wishes he spent more time in the minors. Riding buses. Working with the minor league staffs. The stuff dreams are made of. He probably fought like crazy to not be moved up. Told them repeatedly he couldn't play the outfield. But they didn't listen. 

He was making the team regardless of the Eloy injury.

(yes I know you’re joking obviously)

[bmags]

On 10/28/2023 at 11:59 AM, caulfield12 said:

https://www.milb.com/player/evan-carter-694497

Vaughn had just 212 milb at-bats.

Even Evan Carter at his young age of 21 had nearly 1000 as a raw high school athlete out of eastern Tennessee. 

And a second round pick...which the White Sox consistently miss on.

What a stupid comparison.

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, bmags said:

What a stupid comparison.

The best comparison is Torkelson and Vaughn.

Torkelson went 1-1.  In fact, more was arguably expected of him, although both were Golden Spikes winners…just like Gordon Beckham back in the day at UGA.

 

He had 562 at-bats, a full half season more than Vaughn and didn’t even have to go through a challenging position change.

Please compare Torkelson and Vaughn second half 2023.

 

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/world-series-2023-how-the-diamondbacks-were-built-with-challenge-trades-that-dared-to-believe-in-key-stars-such-as-game-1-starter-zac-gallen-172159958.html

In the end, the White Sox are going to have to win some of these challenge trades like Hazen did with AZ.

It means leveraging Robert, Cease and potentially Montgomery at some point.

Because they’re not going anywhere relying on the draft and free agency alone, it has been proven ever since 2006.

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by caulfield12

[bmags]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The best comparison is Torkelson and Vaughn.

Torkelson went 1-1.  In fact, more was arguably expected of him, although both were Golden Spikes winners…just like Gordon Beckham back in the day at UGA.

 

He had 562 at-bats, a full half season more than Vaughn and didn’t even have to go through a challenging position change.

 

 

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/world-series-2023-how-the-diamondbacks-were-built-with-challenge-trades-that-dared-to-believe-in-key-stars-such-as-game-1-starter-zac-gallen-172159958.html

In the end, the White Sox are going to have to win some of these challenge trades like Hazen did with AZ.

It means leveraging Robert, Cease and potentially Montgomery at some point.

Because they’re not going anywhere relying on the draft and free agency alone, it has been proven ever since 2006.

 

 

 

But they have both been bleh. Torkelson was seen as a better hitter than vaughn, largely due to power. Well, he gets to rest on that power even if his lower avg and obp stay where they are.

I remember with vaughn people talking about how he wasn't recruited and how he looked extremely unathletic everywhere except in the batters box. Well, having that athleticism and ability to manipulate your body seems to help a lot in the most difficult level of the sport.

[caulfield12]

Speaking of missed opportunities, we missed out on #2 and #3 guys in AZ to push the at best #4 in AZ all the way up to #2 in Chicago.

Haber has basically been disappeared or reassigned since nobody has to a clue what he happens to excel in...other than?some gobbledygook about contract negotiations.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

But they have both been bleh. Torkelson was seen as a better hitter than vaughn, largely due to power. Well, he gets to rest on that power even if his lower avg and obp stay where they are.

I remember with vaughn people talking about how he wasn't recruited and how he looked extremely unathletic everywhere except in the batters box. Well, having that athleticism and ability to manipulate your body seems to help a lot in the most difficult level of the sport.

And we have already had a ton of complaints about our recent first rounder Gonzalez lacking athleticism and dynamic tools compared to other middle infield picks in recent years.

[bmags]

On 10/28/2023 at 8:47 AM, Dick Allen said:

I bet the Braves in the late 80s wish they didn’t overthink it and drafter Frank Thomas instead of Tyler Houston. Frank has said the Braves were going to take him.

 

As far as Vaughn is concerned, they did mess with him. They probably rushed him. Other scouts thought he was the second coming of Goldschmidt. Another said he was Konerko on steroids. Non White Sox guys. The thing that has really disappointed me is when he was drafted he had a reputation of having a great idea of the strike zone, and was willing to take walks. That seems to have been a miscalculation or just went by the wayside for some reason. Maybe he gets that back. But we are getting to the point where he is about to be what he is, and while not awful, not why you lose 99 games to acquire.

I'm sure they did, but the sox did a lot of outlier-hunting in the draft in the last decade in the first round.

- No profile has seemed to be dropped from the first round as much as the shorter RHP, yet the sox were there to scoop up Carson Fulmer, the 6'0 righty with an unorthodox delivery who was the poster child for Kiley McDaniels "black swan" theory applied to the draft. Sox were sure his stuff could be harnessed and his fiery demeanor would be what did it. Nope! Everyone else seeing bullpen pitcher was more correct, but he was terrible anyway.

- The draft that set the sox back a decade, swinging and missing at an absolutely loaded 2016 draft when we had 3 top 50 picks, taking Zack Burdi to be a reliever. Because when you are already a limited player in college, surely you will still excel in the mlb in the same role. Nope he was bad.

- Yes this short, power-lacking 2b who was a 2b only because the SS as the elite Caden Grenier and not becuase he was just not athletic enough for SS, is actually just going to be dustin pedroia and won't be the .10 version of dustin pedroia. nope, actually bad. 4th overall.

- THIS 1st baseman, who is shorter, righty and doesn't have prodigious power is definitely just going to be paul konerko and not end up in the same disappointment bin as all the other first round first baseman the last decade. Nope, horrendous defense and mid offense.

You definitely set yourself up with being hardlined on this stuff to maybe miss Frank Thomas, but, in Thomas Defense him being massive and hitting the crap out of th eball probably would lend itself to being an outlier more than Vaughn.

But it doesn't seem a coincidence to me that when we've chased probably the best first round profile, tooled up, athletic shortstops we've gotten the most bang for the buck so far in Colson and Tim Anderson.

Vs when we draft the guy saying "wow he's playing at this high a level as a reliever in college, surely he'll be the same in the pros" we see that they were mostly maxed out and we just get a worse version that may or may not be playable.

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, bmags said:

I'm sure they did, but the sox did a lot of outlier-hunting in the draft in the last decade in the first round.

- No profile has seemed to be dropped from the first round as much as the shorter RHP, yet the sox were there to scoop up Carson Fulmer, the 6'0 righty with an unorthodox delivery who was the poster child for Kiley McDaniels "black swan" theory applied to the draft. Sox were sure his stuff could be harnessed and his fiery demeanor would be what did it. Nope! Everyone else seeing bullpen pitcher was more correct, but he was terrible anyway.

- The draft that set the sox back a decade, swinging and missing at an absolutely loaded 2016 draft when we had 3 top 50 picks, taking Zack Burdi to be a reliever. Because when you are already a limited player in college, surely you will still excel in the mlb in the same role. Nope he was bad.

- Yes this short, power-lacking 2b who was a 2b only because the SS as the elite Caden Grenier and not becuase he was just not athletic enough for SS, is actually just going to be dustin pedroia and won't be the .10 version of dustin pedroia. nope, actually bad. 4th overall.

- THIS 1st baseman, who is shorter, righty and doesn't have prodigious power is definitely just going to be paul konerko and not end up in the same disappointment bin as all the other first round first baseman the last decade. Nope, horrendous defense and mid offense.

You definitely set yourself up with being hardlined on this stuff to maybe miss Frank Thomas, but, in Thomas Defense him being massive and hitting the crap out of th eball probably would lend itself to being an outlier more than Vaughn.

But it doesn't seem a coincidence to me that when we've chased probably the best first round profile, tooled up, athletic shortstops we've gotten the most bang for the buck so far in Colson and Tim Anderson.

Vs when we draft the guy saying "wow he's playing at this high a level as a reliever in college, surely he'll be the same in the pros" we see that they were mostly maxed out and we just get a worse version that may or may not be playable.

They must have been the only team that projected Fulmer at 96-98 mph, because he consistently threw at 92.5-95 with the White Sox.

Walker Buehler, his Vandy teammate, was the one that experienced the massive velocity gain.  Of course, now injured but how many high leverage playoff innings did he contribute?

[Boopa1219]

On 10/28/2023 at 8:06 AM, bmags said:

I love calling this the typical KW pick because pre draft this board was apoplectic about possibly going Abrams over Vaughn because Abram’s was just a typical KW “athlete” pick.

I was all for Abrams back then. The Sox desperately need athletes and up the middle guys in their system. That was true then, it’s true now. 

[GreenSox]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/world-series-2023-how-the-diamondbacks-were-built-with-challenge-trades-that-dared-to-believe-in-key-stars-such-as-game-1-starter-zac-gallen-172159958.html

In the end, the White Sox are going to have to win some of these challenge trades like Hazen did with AZ.

It means leveraging Robert, Cease and potentially Montgomery at some point.

Because they’re not going anywhere relying on the draft and free agency alone, it has been proven ever since 2006.

 

First, they are going to have to actually make some of those types of trades, which Hahn, for some reason, stopped making after in 2013 (Eaton #1 and Davidson).  One worked out, one didn't, but all in all, a huge net +.
I love these kind of trades, I agree that the Sox need them, and, for us old-timers, those are the type of deals that  Hemond used to jumpstart the Sox after the 1970 disaster.

I will edit to add that Carlos Quentin trade #1 was like that; Matt Thornton trade was like that.  They made several from 2005-10, some worked out, some didn't, but the winners hit big.  They involved fewer players than the Az trades, but the same type of trade.
The Burger-Eder trade is arguably like that.
But otherwise, it's mostly old-for-young or young-for-old.

Edited October 30, 2023 by GreenSox

[kitekrazy]

Don't teams usually "rush" college players?

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

Don't teams usually "rush" college players?

Yes, the infamous Sox "fast track" with Sale Burdi Crochet...and going all the way back to the likes of Beckham and Thomas/Ventura/McDowell/Alex Fernandez.

Of course partly due to depth issues or the unwillingness to cover those spots with FAs as "bridge" players...or we get the likes of Eaton 2, Mazara, Parrot and Friends & Family on those occasions we do attempt to plug existing roster gaps.

Then the attempts to take "major league ready/limited upside guys" like Broadway but especially the two Walkers/K.McCulloch/Poreda/Ring.