Cease To Padres per Passan

[tray]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I suppose as usual you misunderstood.

Getz's plan for now is focused on the short term. Cease Fedde ,Kopech, Soroka, Toussaint, Scholtens are all short term guys. Getz is stressing defense from guys with no bats because he needs those pitchers numbers to look as good as possible at the trade deadline. The focus is not winning, it's praying and hoping that better defense can make some of those guys worth a prospect or 2.

 

So acquire position players that marginally improve the defense in order to marginally increase the future trade value of pitchers?

Oh, I get it now...and I think it is contrived and asinine.

 

[zisk]

6 minutes ago, tray said:

So acquire position players that marginally improve the defense in order to marginally increase the future trade value of pitchers?

Oh, I get it now...and I think it is contrived and asinine.

 

contrived and asinine are both words that should be used more often. using both in one

sentence deserves applause.

[WhiteSox2023]

10 minutes ago, tray said:

So acquire position players that marginally improve the defense in order to marginally increase the future trade value of pitchers?

Oh, I get it now...and I think it is contrived and asinine.

 

So who would you acquire to improve the team?  Teams that are trying to compete don’t acquire Paul DeJong as their starting SS, Nicky Lopez as their starting 2B, and Max Stassi as their starting catcher.  They may improve the defense but their offense is going to be downright offensive.

Edited December 26, 2023 by WhiteSox2023

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Again, doesn't really matter but Bradish career ERA+ is 110, and Grayson's is 97.  So if that's the measure, not sure there is much support for that claim.

Cease's ERA+ past three seasons is 131.  That seems like a better measuring stick, which includes both a Cy Young runner-up season in 22, and season where most went wrong in 23. 

Last year, a 131 on the Sox would have equated to about a 3.45 ERA.  When I look at the third-party projections for Cease for 2024, I see Steamer at 4.12, Marcel at 3.83.  So your 131 feels very aggressive to me, though obviously we know Cease did put up one great season much better than that.  I’d certainly be hoping for that, but I wouldn’t be valuing him that way in a trade.   

[Frobby]

33 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Elias has to be smart enough to know that the O's running away with the AL East was a bit of a perfect storm. How often are both NYY and Boston not in the playoff chase? They can't just sit on their hands and not add while the big spenders upgrade, and at some point all of these prospects are going to start to age and depreciate in value. He may not feel a sense of urgency this winter, but at some point it will be time to s%*# or get off the pot. 

I do think Elias is smart enough to know he can’t sit still.  He may not feel that trading for Cease is his best option, depending on what various possible trade partners are asking.   Like I said, he’s a patient guy and I think he’ll explore every possible option before deciding which choice is most to his liking.  Hopefully he won’t wait so long that he loses his best options, but I think he’s smart enough not to let that happen.  

[Bob Sacamano]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I do think Elias is smart enough to know he can’t sit still.  He may not feel that trading for Cease is his best option, depending on what various possible trade partners are asking.   Like I said, he’s a patient guy and I think he’ll explore every possible option before deciding which choice is most to his liking.  Hopefully he won’t wait so long that he loses his best options, but I think he’s smart enough not to let that happen.  

They can make a deal for Cease without hurting their farm. Pull the trigger.

[WhiteSox2023]

23 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I do think Elias is smart enough to know he can’t sit still.  He may not feel that trading for Cease is his best option, depending on what various possible trade partners are asking.   Like I said, he’s a patient guy and I think he’ll explore every possible option before deciding which choice is most to his liking.  Hopefully he won’t wait so long that he loses his best options, but I think he’s smart enough not to let that happen.  

Does Elias have full control or does old man Angelos meddle in his moves like Reinsdorf?  I’m sure Elias is reluctant to trade prospects since he knows he won’t have the payroll to sign quality players in free agency, but I was just wondering he he has full control of baseball decisions or if ownership is breathing down his neck saying “don’t do that”.

Edited December 26, 2023 by WhiteSox2023

[SoCalChiSox]

28 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I do think Elias is smart enough to know he can’t sit still.  He may not feel that trading for Cease is his best option, depending on what various possible trade partners are asking.   Like I said, he’s a patient guy and I think he’ll explore every possible option before deciding which choice is most to his liking.  Hopefully he won’t wait so long that he loses his best options, but I think he’s smart enough not to let that happen.  

I realize why GMs have to really exhaust and contemplate the cost/benefit analysis of every alternative and also utilize whatever perceived leverage they might have, including negotiating thru the media and trying to wait the other side out.

As fans though, I suspect you guys are in the same boat as we are: dying for any kind of significant move to address the teams needs. 

We've been arguing here about Cease's value internally for months with the same people and rehashing the same s%*# over and over.

I feel if you were the Orioles GM and we locked you in a room with @Chicago White Sox we could probably have a reasonable and mutually beneficial deal done in about 10 minutes that both fanbases would be reasonably happy with rather than this 3 month Mexican standoff.

And I suspect most of those 10 minutes would be you guys haggling over the third piece. 

@Chicago White Sox would bring in a few plates of really really hot Nashville Hot Chicken and he'd say ok, i got a couple gallons of ice cold milk waiting outside to wash it down with and some brownies too.... just say OK to Povich as the third piece...lol.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by SoCalChiSox

[Frobby]

41 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Does Elias have full control or does old man Angelos meddle in his moves like Reinsdorf?  I’m sure Elias is reluctant to trade prospects since he knows he won’t have the payroll to sign quality players in free agency, but I was just wondering he he has full control of baseball decisions or if ownership is breathing down his neck saying “don’t do that”.

Peter Angelos suffered a serious stroke in 2017 or 2018, and his mental capacity was seriously impaired.  He’s had no role running the team since then. His son John took over oversight of the team and hired Elias in 2018 after the O’s collapsed that season.  By all accounts, he has not interfered with Elias in any way, but he appears to keep a very tight leash on the budget.   

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Peter Angelos suffered a serious stroke in 2017 or 2018, and his mental capacity was seriously impaired.  He’s had no role running the team since then. His son John took over oversight of the team and hired Elias in 2018 after the O’s collapsed that season.  By all accounts, he has not interfered with Elias in any way, but he appears to keep a very tight leash on the budget.   

Sounds like Ilitch Jr. and Steinbrenner's son...the next generation is more risk-averse.

[Tnetennba]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Peter Angelos suffered a serious stroke in 2017 or 2018, and his mental capacity was seriously impaired.  He’s had no role running the team since then. His son John took over oversight of the team and hired Elias in 2018 after the O’s collapsed that season.  By all accounts, he has not interfered with Elias in any way, but he appears to keep a very tight leash on the budget.   

That's what I gather reading the tea leaves from afar. They won't be spending gobs to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox for the AL East, so they need to be shrewd. 

 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Sounds like Ilitch Jr. and Steinbrenner's son...the next generation is more risk-averse.

He kind of has to be.  His dad had an ultra-profitable law firm that generated his income.  The son lives off the baseball team.  

[WhiteSox2023]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

He kind of has to be.  His dad had an ultra-profitable law firm that generated his income.  The son lives off the baseball team.  

So what is the majority of Orioles fans’ view on Cowser and Kjerstad?  I think most Sox fans would be happy with either one being included in a trade, both being lefty outfielders, with the ability to play a position that the Sox have neglected for years.  Which one do most Orioles fans like more?

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

So what is the majority of Orioles fans’ view on Cowser and Kjerstad?  I think most Sox fans would be happy with either one being included in a trade, both being lefty outfielders, with the ability to play a position that the Sox have neglected for years.  Which one do most Orioles fans like more?

It’s very much a 50/50 proposition.  Kjerstad has more power, Cowser has more plate discipline and is more versatile defensively (he can play CF though you might not want him playing there every day).   I’d say the majority favor Kjerstad but that’s mostly because of his small sample performance in the majors relative to Cowser.   

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 hours ago, tray said:

So acquire position players that marginally improve the defense in order to marginally increase the future trade value of pitchers?

Oh, I get it now...and I think it is contrived and asinine.

 

Lol what other choice do they have. Please enlighten me with a better plan that makes sense with our current 40 man roster and owner. Lay it out for me. Show me your baseball IQ.

[WhiteSox2023]

20 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Lol what other choice do they have. Please enlighten me with a better plan that makes sense with our current 40 man roster and owner. Lay it out for me. Show me your baseball IQ.

Getz has talked about improving the defense numerous times.  Jerry even came out and said David Eckstein was one of his favorite players when he promoted Getz.  Getz has since acquired a bunch of young pitchers, along with all defense and no bat position players (similar to Jerry’s favorite player), including two catchers.  None of the bats he acquired can hit a lick but they may be able to support the development of a young pitcher.  I don’t understand why Tray thinks your idea on Getz’s plan is outrageous.  I don’t think any of it will be very successful but with Jerry as the owner looking to cut payroll, I don’t think Getz has a prayer of doing much in the way of improving a terrible roster.

Edited December 27, 2023 by WhiteSox2023

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Getz has talked about improving the defense numerous times.  Jerry even came out and said David Eckstein was one of his favorite players when he promoted Getz.  Getz has since acquired a bunch of young pitchers, along with all defense and no bat position players (similar to Jerry’s favorite player), including two catchers.  None of the bats he acquired can hit a lick but they may be able to support the development of a young pitcher.  I don’t understand why Tray thinks your idea on Getz’s plan is outrageous.  I don’t think any of it will be very successful but with Jerry as the owner looking to cut payroll, I don’t think Getz has a prayer of doing much in the way of improving a terrible roster.

There it is. Thank you. It's all just turning over the roster, roster churning, call it whatever you will. It's a Hail Mary , a wing and a prayer, a wish upon a star.

How do you do ? Out with the old in with the new in another JR stew.

Right before your eyes.

We'll pull laughter from the skies

Then he laughs until he cries.

Then he dies, then he dies.

Edited December 27, 2023 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 hours ago, Frobby said:

It’s very much a 50/50 proposition.  Kjerstad has more power, Cowser has more plate discipline and is more versatile defensively (he can play CF though you might not want him playing there every day).   I’d say the majority favor Kjerstad but that’s mostly because of his small sample performance in the majors relative to Cowser.   

I like Beavers myself. Primed for a big year .

[caulfield12]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/latest-mlb-rumors-bellinger-snell-225008234.html
 

Dodgers pursuing Bieber trade now

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Getz has talked about improving the defense numerous times.  Jerry even came out and said David Eckstein was one of his favorite players when he promoted Getz.  Getz has since acquired a bunch of young pitchers, along with all defense and no bat position players (similar to Jerry’s favorite player), including two catchers.  None of the bats he acquired can hit a lick but they may be able to support the development of a young pitcher.  I don’t understand why Tray thinks your idea on Getz’s plan is outrageous.  I don’t think any of it will be very successful but with Jerry as the owner looking to cut payroll, I don’t think Getz has a prayer of doing much in the way of improving a terrible roster.

Why pursue a speed power defense based approach in a stadium that favors power hitting traditionally…?

 

Dumping Burger…who they didn’t 100% believe in defensively.

Moncada will be gone, likely replaced by Montgomery at third…who will require time to adjust to a new position.

Vaughn will never be much more than average at best.

SS/2B won’t hit enough to make defense worth it.

AB looks to be at best average in LF.

RF is non existent.  Michael Taylor or Bader?  Both seem out of the current budget.

Catching would be pretty great if both those guys were 5-7 years younger.

So our defense and pitching first is based 85% on strong or improved defense up the middle…but no plan how they will win with one of the very worst offenses in an offense-first stadium (monster Jimenez DH year?), and with nothing resembling a closer, either.  Leasure ???

Edited December 27, 2023 by caulfield12

[WhiteSox2023]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I like Beavers myself.

Who doesn’t?

[Sports Guy]

Joining Frobby over here..

 

Personally, Cease is #1 on my wish list of pitchers that are likely available. I like him over other guys because of his upside and the idea that I love having power arms in the playoffs.

That said, a prevailing thought I see amongst WS fans (not necessarily talking about here but more social media in general) is that teams are getting the 2022 version of Cease and that we (we meaning fans outside of WS fans) shouldnt question how good he is outside of that 2022 season.

The bottom line is that there is both a lot to like and a lot to not like about Cease. He’s not a slam dunk to be a significant upgrade enough to trade what it will take to get him but, at least for me, he’s worth that risk.

The question is, what is the return? I have zero interest trading our top 3 guys (Holliday, Basallo and Mayo) for ANYONE that is rumored to realistically be available and even if we want to talk about unrealistic players, there are very few guys I’m dealing them for. 
 

Im willing to move Cowser and Ortiz for Cease but I could see the hesitance to do so. Too many Os fans got down on Cowser for a SSS where he also had some bad luck. The thing is though, most people have Cowser as a top 30ish prospect.  Are the WS getting that level of player for Cease?  I have my doubts. 
 

I have had this discussion with with Chicago White Sox over on OH and you guys may not get a prospect rated higher than Ortiz (who btw some of you guys are really underrating) but I also understand the idea of wanting someone younger as the headliner.

I tend to wonder if the WS would want Westburg…I also wonder if they would be happy with a quantity type package over getting one stud prospect.

I know that’s not the type of deal fans want (at least not all fans) but the WS aren’t one good player away and the Os could trade 3 guys in the 10-20 range that would be in most teams top 7. 
 

I have consistently felt that if/when Cease is dealt that fans will be unhappy with the return. Cease, while the upside is there, has too many red flags and too many good but not great years for teams to be dealing top 25 prospects and other stuff for him. 
 

The only way I see the Sox getting that top guy is if Boston gets desperate and unloads Meyer for him. I don’t think they will do that but they may be dumb enough to do it because of the pressure of being in Boston, the payroll, fan base, etc…

Other than that, I’m just not seeing it or else I think the deal would have already gotten done.

Plus, there are several other options out there to trade for, so that doesn’t help either. 

Hopefully we get a deal done. I feel we match up well although if the Sox want pitching to lead the package, that’s where we likely bow out. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Sports Guy

[SoCalChiSox]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Joining Frobby over here..

 

Personally, Cease is #1 on my wish list of pitchers that are likely available. I like him over other guys because of his upside and the idea that I love having power arms in the playoffs.

That said, a prevailing thought I see amongst WS fans (not necessarily talking about here but more social media in general) is that teams are getting the 2022 version of Cease and that we (we meaning fans outside of WS fans) shouldnt question how good he is outside of that 2022 season.

The bottom line is that there is both a lot to like and a lot to not like about Cease. He’s not a slam dunk to be a significant upgrade enough to trade what it will take to get him but, at least for me, he’s worth that risk.

The question is, what is the return? I have zero interest trading our top 3 guys (Holliday, Basallo and Mayo) for ANYONE that is rumored to realistically be available and even if we want to talk about unrealistic players, there are very few guys I’m dealing them for. 
 

Im willing to move Cowser and Ortiz for Cease but I could see the hesitance to do so. Too many Os fans got down on Cowser for a SSS where he also had some bad luck. The thing is though, most people have Cowser as a top 30ish prospect.  Are the WS getting that level of player for Cease?  I have my doubts. 
 

I have had this discussion with with Chicago White Sox over on OH and you guys may not get a prospect rated higher than Ortiz (who btw some of you guys are really underrating) but I also understand the idea of wanting someone younger as the headliner.

I tend to wonder if the WS would want Westburg…I also wonder if they would be happy with a quantity type package over getting one stud prospect.

I know that’s not the type of deal fans want (at least not all fans) but the WS aren’t one good player away and the Os could trade 3 guys in the 10-20 range that would be in most teams top 7. 
 

I have consistently felt that if/when Cease is dealt that fans will be unhappy with the return. Cease, while the upside is there, has too many red flags and too many good but not great years for teams to be dealing top 25 prospects and other stuff for him. 
 

The only way I see the Sox getting that top guy is if Boston gets desperate and unloads Meyer for him. I don’t think they will do that but they may be dumb enough to do it because of the pressure of being in Boston, the payroll, fan base, etc…

Other than that, I’m just not seeing it or else I think the deal would have already gotten done.

Plus, there are several other options out there to trade for, so that doesn’t help either. 

Hopefully we get a deal done. I feel we match up well although if the Sox want pitching to lead the package, that’s where we likely bow out. 

Welcome to the forum.

I think the vast majority of us here would be happy with:

1) One of Hjerstad/Cowser 

2) One of Ortiz/Norby

3) Povich

Unfortunately it seems your GM is being very tight fisted with prospects and our GM has a very unhealthy obsession with pitching even though the positional talent on the MLB roster for the future is more or less hot garbage aside from a very small handful of players, so it seems unlikely a deal will be done. 

Our FO, like it's predecessor has a Ph.D in the art of fucking up even a wet dream so I'm sure we'll be quite unhappy with whatever result comes of the Cease matter.

[Timmy U]

16 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Joining Frobby over here..

 

Personally, Cease is #1 on my wish list of pitchers that are likely available. I like him over other guys because of his upside and the idea that I love having power arms in the playoffs.

That said, a prevailing thought I see amongst WS fans (not necessarily talking about here but more social media in general) is that teams are getting the 2022 version of Cease and that we (we meaning fans outside of WS fans) shouldnt question how good he is outside of that 2022 season.

The bottom line is that there is both a lot to like and a lot to not like about Cease. He’s not a slam dunk to be a significant upgrade enough to trade what it will take to get him but, at least for me, he’s worth that risk.

The question is, what is the return? I have zero interest trading our top 3 guys (Holliday, Basallo and Mayo) for ANYONE that is rumored to realistically be available and even if we want to talk about unrealistic players, there are very few guys I’m dealing them for. 
 

Im willing to move Cowser and Ortiz for Cease but I could see the hesitance to do so. Too many Os fans got down on Cowser for a SSS where he also had some bad luck. The thing is though, most people have Cowser as a top 30ish prospect.  Are the WS getting that level of player for Cease?  I have my doubts. 
 

I have had this discussion with with Chicago White Sox over on OH and you guys may not get a prospect rated higher than Ortiz (who btw some of you guys are really underrating) but I also understand the idea of wanting someone younger as the headliner.

I tend to wonder if the WS would want Westburg…I also wonder if they would be happy with a quantity type package over getting one stud prospect.

I know that’s not the type of deal fans want (at least not all fans) but the WS aren’t one good player away and the Os could trade 3 guys in the 10-20 range that would be in most teams top 7. 
 

I have consistently felt that if/when Cease is dealt that fans will be unhappy with the return. Cease, while the upside is there, has too many red flags and too many good but not great years for teams to be dealing top 25 prospects and other stuff for him. 
 

The only way I see the Sox getting that top guy is if Boston gets desperate and unloads Meyer for him. I don’t think they will do that but they may be dumb enough to do it because of the pressure of being in Boston, the payroll, fan base, etc…

Other than that, I’m just not seeing it or else I think the deal would have already gotten done.

Plus, there are several other options out there to trade for, so that doesn’t help either. 

Hopefully we get a deal done. I feel we match up well although if the Sox want pitching to lead the package, that’s where we likely bow out. 

Thanks for the insight. I am not in on Ortiz period. He's like Arroyo from the Reds with a lower ceiling. Good glove, maybe 50 hit, 45 power. A guy like that doesn't have to miss his projection by much to be a utility guy. And he's not young.  Obviously, the O's aren't giving up Holliday, but if the headliner is Ortiz, the Sox will have a bunch of better options. Hell, Atlanta's rumored package is way better than that and the two teams have made a couple of deals already.  I predict the O's will prospect-hug and go dumpster diving to add to the rotation. I feel like if a deal was going to happen between these two teams, it would have happened already.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Welcome to the forum.

I think the vast majority of us here would be happy with:

1) One of Hjerstad/Cowser 

2) One of Ortiz/Norby

3) Povich

Unfortunately it seems your GM is being very tight fisted with prospects and our GM has a very unhealthy obsession with pitching even though the positional talent on the MLB roster for the future is more or less hot garbage aside from a very small handful of players, so it seems unlikely a deal will be done. 

Our FO, like its predecessor has a Ph.D in the art of fucking up even a wet dream so I'm sure we'll be quite unhappy with whatever result comes of the Cease matter.

I’m not sure how to describe Elias so far when it comes to trades.

He has made some good trades as a seller but his trades as a buyer have been mediocre at best. Now, he also hasn’t exactly been in the market for top guys yet either, so I feel some of that is tbd. I know some think Elias is a prospect hugger and have definitely been frustrated at certain things in recent years but Elias is as good as it gets and deserves the benefit of the doubt.

That said, any GM is going to be tight fisted with prospects when you have so many elite young players. Every team wishes they had the young talent the Os do and as Frobby pointed out, the Os losing OFers soon, so they may not want to deal these guys.

OTOH, they also have guys like Stowers(he is being written off too much by fans), Beavers and a slew of recently drafted college OFers that could turn into something, so maybe trading Cowser or Kjerstad and getting that potential TOR starter is worth the risk. 

As for the trade you hope for…that’s what I mean. I don’t think you are getting that much. It’s possible but the Os love Povich and Kiley McDaniel had him as a top 60ish prospect going into last year.  

The issue with Povich is very inconsistent command and control but some of the advanced metrics love him.