Quin Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 To quote Harold, Yamamoto has more red flags than Soviet Moscow, has never pitched in major league baseball, and got $300M. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 12 minutes ago, Rolle Tide said: A stupid contract by any measure….but they are one of a few teams that can piss money away It may be but that’s the market for potentially elite talent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 hours ago, Quin said: R.I.P. Burger, Mayo, Colas. Kenny Williams stole you from us Don't forget Jace Fry and they could have gotten Seth Beer I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) Mayo & Cowser is the foundation of a really good deal that both really hurts and really helps both teams moving forward. Edited January 5 by Jerksticks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frobby Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: But why? Show me your math on how you got to this conclusion. What is the projected surplus value of Mayo vs. the projected surplus value of Cease? At the end of the day, it depends what Elias thinks, not what O’s fans think. But do imagine Elias is crunching numbers. I should tell you, over on Orioles Hangout, Sports Guy has always had an extremely high opinion of Mayo, relative to other prospects. So there may be O’s fans more willing to part with Mayo that he is. But who really cares, none of them are the GM. I definitely don’t think Mayo is untouchable but I think it would take a more consistent pitcher than Cease has been for Elias to move him. But all of that is just my opinion, it’s not like we really know. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisox05 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolle Tide Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, almagest said: If I'm "trolling" by posting what White Sox fans expect from a Cease trade on a White Sox fan message board, then you're ABSOLUTELY trolling by coming here and telling us that you're not trading anyone in the top 40 overall prospects or in your team's top 5, and we should be content with a 26 year old glove first shortstop who sucked in a cup of coffee and some 45 FV pitchers who would be lucky to top out at Cease's floor. No thanks, we think we can likely get that or better elsewhere. I’m not trading anyone and neither are you. I mentioned earlier that I’d send Cowser as a headliner. I said I don’t believe Elias has any of those guys on the table. I’m not telling you to be content with anything. What you expect and what actually happens might be two very different things. Ortiz glove is plus plus and his batting average and OPS have increased 40 points and 100+ respectively. He’d be extremely valuable if his OPS is .725-.750 in the majors. But, no one is telling you who to like or not. Sucked? He played sporadically but I don’t expect you to know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I think you guys have elevated these prospects to levels above their true worth. If you were to exclude your top five, I think Joey Ortiz is the only one who would be in our top five. Norby & Povich in particular are so overrated by you guys it’s not even funny. And the bulk of your fans don’t have any sense of expected bust rates for this next tier of prospects…which is incredibly high and makes them much less valuable than you think. After taking a look I completely agree. Ortiz probably slots in between 3-5, depending on how Quero's 2023 is viewed, and most of the other names mentioned are probably 9 or below on our top 30. That's some nice potential depth but depth on a prospect list isn't gonna move the needle. They also don't have anyone in the back half of the top 100 and that's concerning both for their depth and for a trade that doesn't include one of their top 5. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, fathom said: That Mets one doesn’t impress me I like it. Baty can really crank. He's a middle of the order bat and above avg 3b. Tidwell and Vasil have middle of the rotation potential. Vientos has plus power potential and Sproat is a power arm who has a chance to stay a starter or at worst is a high leverage reliever. I think this would be a very good return. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 Just now, Frobby said: At the end of the day, it depends what Elias thinks, not what O’s fans think. But do imagine Elias is crunching numbers. I should tell you, over on Orioles Hangout, Sports Guy has always had an extremely high opinion of Mayo, relative to other prospects. So there may be O’s fans more willing to part with Mayo that he is. But who really cares, none of them are the GM. I definitely don’t think Mayo is untouchable but I think it would take a more consistent pitcher than Cease has been for Elias to move him. But all of that is just my opinion, it’s not like we really know. And I think that’s why people are getting upset with Sports Guy here. I would agree that Mayo and especially Basallo are far less likely to be moved, but it seems crazy to call them completely untouchables like say Holliday. At the end of the day, the market will dictate the cost and it will be up to Elias to decide how aggressive he wants to be. His track record may suggest he won’t move the highest end guys, but if you guys are still mix it suggests that he’s willing to give up more than Ortiz & scraps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, Sports Guy said: They aren’t being Moved for Cease. I think they could be available in some deal but I doubt Cease is that guy. He’s not good enough, cheap enough or under control enough to get either of those guys. You're insane dude. I think you forget how important pitching is and the premium the player who only plays every 5 games actually commands. To flat out say that most of Baltimore's top 5 isn't available for a durable, Cy Young potential pitcher for 2 years is just wild to me. Keep them, I hope they all bust and Dylan goes to NY somewhere and wins a Cy Young or finishes TOP TWO AGAIN. SMH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 minutes ago, Rolle Tide said: I’m not trading anyone and neither are you. I mentioned earlier that I’d send Cowser as a headliner. I said I don’t believe Elias has any of those guys on the table. I’m not telling you to be content with anything. What you expect and what actually happens might be two very different things. Ortiz glove is plus plus and his batting average and OPS have increased 40 points and 100+ respectively. He’d be extremely valuable if his OPS is .725-.750 in the majors. But, no one is telling you who to like or not. Sucked? He played sporadically but I don’t expect you to know that. Yes, this is all hypothetical. We have moved past that point. You're not making the point you think you are bringing this up constantly. Cowser + Ortiz + a mid top 30 org list guy is much more intriguing, I'll give you that. An Ortiz headliner is a non-starter, though. To your last point - I watched Dylan Cease all last year and saw how he looked more like a mid-rotation pitcher with inconsistent command and reduced fastball velocity, until he turned it around in September and looked like his 2022 form again. But I wouldn't expect you to know that. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Let's not forget Jose Quintana, a durable reliable solid pitcher, not unlike Dylan Cease returned 2 of the Cubs best prospects in Jimenez (who I guess has kinda busted but was a HUGE prospect) and Dylan Cease himself. BAL needs to GTFO with their prospect hugging untouchable nonsense. No one is untouchable if you actually want the guy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolle Tide Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I think you guys have elevated these prospects to levels above their true worth. If you were to exclude your top five, I think Joey Ortiz is the only one who would be in our top five. Norby & Povich in particular are so overrated by you guys it’s not even funny. And the bulk of your fans don’t have any sense of expected bust rates for this next tier of prospects…which is incredibly high and makes them much less valuable than you think. In addition to Ortiz 55, all of Norby, Bradfield, and Beavers are all graded 50 by MLB. So they could possibly slot in your top 5. There is no sense debating Gonzalez and Eder versus them. You guys underrate Ortiz because he’s a glove first guy (that Getz supposedly is focused on) and underrate Norby be a he’s a bat first player. For me …..Ortiz really didn’t get a shot to play when he was here this year, Norby hasn’t gotten a shot. And all I’ve said about Povich is that there isn’t a hell of a lot of difference IMO between Hampton and Warren vs McDermott and Povich. Edited January 5 by Rolle Tide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said: Mayo is a "premium prospect" with "4+ WAR upside", yet Cease a question mark after averaging 4.2 WAR the past three seasons under cheap control for 2 seasons in a market in which mediocre and injury prone SPs are getting $14M+ AAV. This is why no one takes you seriously. You forget man. Dylan Cease (a premium pitcher) isn't worth a "premium prospect". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: I like it. Baty can really crank. He's a middle of the order bat and above avg 3b. Tidwell and Vasil have middle of the rotation potential. Vientos has plus power potential and Sproat is a power arm who has a chance to stay a starter or at worst is a high leverage reliever. I think this would be a very good return. I know Mets fans were extremely disappointed with Baty’s defense…no issues for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, Southwest Sider said: Let's not forget Jose Quintana, a durable reliable solid pitcher, not unlike Dylan Cease returned 2 of the Cubs best prospects in Jimenez (who I guess has kinda busted but was a HUGE prospect) and Dylan Cease himself. BAL needs to GTFO with their prospect hugging untouchable nonsense. No one is untouchable if you actually want the guy. Quintana was also in the midst of a pretty rough season when he was traded, and that was worth #12 and #77 on MLB's list. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishPrince34 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) Biggest concern with Ortiz is his age. A 26 year old prospect headlining a deal would be a head scratcher. Edited January 5 by PolishPrince34 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, Southwest Sider said: Let's not forget Jose Quintana, a durable reliable solid pitcher, not unlike Dylan Cease returned 2 of the Cubs best prospects in Jimenez (who I guess has kinda busted but was a HUGE prospect) and Dylan Cease himself. BAL needs to GTFO with their prospect hugging untouchable nonsense. No one is untouchable if you actually want the guy. A HUGE difference with Quintana though...when traded, Quintana was under contract and controlled for 3.5 years. That's Luis Robert's control level (as of this year's trade deadline). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 minutes ago, fathom said: I know Mets fans were extremely disappointed with Baty’s defense…no issues for you? Nope. He won't remind anyone of Brooks Robinson down there but he'll be just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: A HUGE difference with Quintana though...when traded, Quintana was under contract and controlled for 3.5 years. That's Luis Robert's control level (as of this year's trade deadline). Semantics for our side of the discussion ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishPrince34 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 I think that’s why the Baltimore posters are so eager to trade Ortiz because his value will continue to get dinged the longer he stays in the minors at age 26-27. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: A HUGE difference with Quintana though...when traded, Quintana was under contract and controlled for 3.5 years. That's Luis Robert's control level (as of this year's trade deadline). Which is why most of the Sox fan proposals here are looking at prospects ranked lower than Eloy's #12 as the headliner. Orioles have #14, #24, #27 & #46 on MLB's 2023 list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey21 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 9 minutes ago, PolishPrince34 said: Biggest concern with Ortiz is his age. A 26 year old prospect headlining a deal would be a head scratcher. Ohhh I didn’t even realize he’s 26 and in AAA?? No wonder why O’s fans are pushing for him to be the headliner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, almagest said: Then there's nothing for you to talk about with us, because we're not trading two years of a cheap starter who's floor is a mid-rotation starter and ceiling is a Cy Young finalist for your lower tier prospects. The future value proposition just isn't worth it, because prospects have a ton of risk and this trade is too important to this team to fail. EXACTLY Makes no damn sense to trade Cease for mid prospects because this org as a whole is like 10 years out from relevance. That's how lolbad it is. I frankly DGAF, the longer this goes on, the higher my personal price becomes. Now I don't want Mayo, I want Holliday. If Ruschmann was still a prospect I'd be demanding him. There's no reason to settle for "whatever the O's offer" because it just doesn't move the needle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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