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Just now, Bob Sacamano said:

At 3B sure. What about 2B?

No way Ortiz pushes Henderson off short on a full time basis. Henderson is pretty darn good defensively and his bat/power/speed are all at least a full grade above Ortiz. I don’t care if he’s Mark Belanger, no one is that good defensively.

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4 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

No way Ortiz pushes Henderson off short on a full time basis. Henderson is pretty darn good defensively and his bat/power/speed are all at least a full grade above Ortiz. I don’t care if he’s Mark Belanger, no one is that good defensively.

I've corrected my original post. I was referring to him seeing time last year.

And my point still stands regardless of where Gunnar is next year: play Ortiz somewhere in the IF if he's so highly regarded, whether it's 2B or 3B until Gunnar needs to move over for Holliday. Especially over Urias and Mateo.

Edited by Bob Sacamano
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5 minutes ago, almagest said:

I said 3-5 for Ortiz so I don't know what's so funny. We're right in the same range. Schultz is a FV 55 because he's younger and has more risk, but the upside is incredibly high. He's likely higher on the 2024 list than Ortiz - he's 31 on Baseball America's 2023 list. Gonzalez is a 2023 first round pick so he's probably ranked higher than Norby, Bradfield and Beavers by pedigree. Most Sox fans are bearish on him, though, as he really struggled at the plate. Those three you mentioned could slot in that 4-7 range, but everyone else that's been mentioned would not.

But, per MLB Ortiz would clearly be #2. Bradfield and Gonzalez were both 2023 1st rounders within a few picks of one another. So what pedigree….. I can’t wait to hear. You can build up your prospects…. I suppose we all do. 

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Just now, Bob Sacamano said:

I've corrected. I was referring to he should have seen time last year. And my point still stands regardless of where Gunnar is: play Ortiz somewhere in the IF.

I understand.  My opposing point is that Ortiz is less good than other options they have at all 3 positions currently and that is with Holliday looming. He’s looking at another year of AAA if Elias doesn’t unload him.

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2 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

I understand.  My opposing point is that Ortiz is less good than other options they have at all 3 positions currently and that is with Holliday looming. He’s looking at another year of AAA if Elias doesn’t unload him.

Idk if it were me, I think I would just play him over Mateo (his ability to play both IF and OF makes him a good 26th man) and Urias. One of those two is starting with Westburg and Gunnar to start the year. Dude is entering his age 25 season. Might as well showcase him.

Edited by Bob Sacamano
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4 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

No way Ortiz pushes Henderson off short on a full time basis. Henderson is pretty darn good defensively and his bat/power/speed are all at least a full grade above Ortiz. I don’t care if he’s Mark Belanger, no one is that good defensively.

What the heck does his bat have to do with it? A good manager would put his best defender at SS, the next guy would move to 3B or SS. It would make your defense better which the White Sox need. There are folks on the Orioles site arguing Gunner Henderson should stay at SS. The reality is the same, if Ortiz isn’t traded he should start at SS and push Henderson back to 3B…..period.

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1 minute ago, Rolle Tide said:

But, per MLB Ortiz would clearly be #2. Bradfield and Gonzalez were both 2023 1st rounders within a few picks of one another. So what pedigree….. I can’t wait to hear. You can build up your prospects…. I suppose we all do. 

As of these 2023 rankings, sure. He likely wouldn't be once the 2024 lists come out.

Gonzalez was drafted 15th, so yes he would probably be ranked higher still, unless Bradfield torched the minors after being drafted.

You're also missing that we're not that interested in a guy who doesn't fit nearly as well here as other options due to age and position.

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1 minute ago, Rolle Tide said:

What the heck does his bat have to do with it? A good manager would put his best defender at SS, the next guy would move to 3B or SS. It would make your defense better which the White Sox need. There are folks on the Orioles site arguing Gunner Henderson should stay at SS. The reality is the same, if Ortiz isn’t traded he should start at SS and push Henderson back to 3B…..period.

Well yeah, this was my logic too here. Gunnar has played 3B at the MLB level and if Ortiz is better defensively, wouldn't you play him at SS if you are going to play Gunnar, Westburg and Ortiz?

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1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Teams aren’t stupid and know what a s%*# show the squad was last year.  And they can go on Statcast and see Dylan Cease was hurt more by a s%*# defense than almost any other SP (which ERA+ doesn’t account for).  They will pay for expected go-forward performance and not the prior season’s results.

And come on with this playoff experience bullshit…you know the sample size isn’t material enough to draw any conclusions from for any player.  Having said that, teams typically want SPs with plus stuff who can actually K opponents.  I have literally seen you make this very point at the Hangout, which is why you are one of the biggest proponents for him over there.

I only mentioned the playoff stuff because you were comparing him to Montgomery and his contract. Monty is coming off a very good year where he was excellent in the playoffs. That helped to drive up his value.

Cease is coming off of neither of those things.

I don’t actually care about the playoff success but it will help his contract value.

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Just now, Bob Sacamano said:

Well yeah, this was my logic too here. Gunnar has played 3B at the MLB level and if Ortiz is better defensively, wouldn't you play him at SS if you are going to play Gunnar, Westburg and Ortiz?

Agreed and they are talking about Holiday at 2B, Mayo at 1B. 

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2 minutes ago, almagest said:

As of these 2023 rankings, sure. He likely wouldn't be once the 2024 lists come out.

Gonzalez was drafted 15th, so yes he would probably be ranked higher still, unless Bradfield torched the minors after being drafted.

You're also missing that we're not that interested in a guy who doesn't fit nearly as well here as other options due to age and position.

They just adjusted this list this fall. Bradfield hit .290, .800 OPS and is a CF. They were 2 slots apart. At this point it’s safe to say the value is comparable. 
 

“We’re” ? I’m not missing anything. Your interests have no more impact on Getz than mine with Elias. That’s a number between 0 and 0. 

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3 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Well, perfect. Obviously Ortiz is too good to be included in a trade for Cease. 

It’s not my place to say…l don’t understand why some of you are taking this personal. You clearly have to give up something to get something. We will see what GM gets Cease and what he had to give up. If it’s not the Orioles we can then debate endlessly what might or might not have been better. If it’s the Orioles we can debate who won or lost or if the deal was fair. Pretty sure we probably won’t agree on that either. It’s just a discussion let’s try to keep it fun,  know I am!

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50 minutes ago, PolishPrince34 said:

I think that’s why the Baltimore posters are so eager to trade Ortiz because his value will continue to get dinged the longer he stays in the minors at age 26-27. 

I’ve told them on their site that they either need to give Ortiz the starting 2B job or trade him for something else that can help (not necessarily Cease), because a 26 year old without any major league success quickly erodes value.

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17 minutes ago, Rolle Tide said:

They just adjusted this list this fall. Bradfield hit .290, .800 OPS and is a CF. They were 2 slots apart. At this point it’s safe to say the value is comparable. 
 

“We’re” ? I’m not missing anything. Your interests have no more impact on Getz than mine with Elias. That’s a number between 0 and 0. 

Here we go with the "but but but we're not MLB GM's!" nonsense again. You are contributing nothing by saying this. You are just being annoying.

That said, I can absolutely tell you that Ortiz would be blocking our top prospect's position and his value at 3B or 2B is not nearly as high as at SS. We also still need to pay/play Moncada, and then Ortiz is 27 when Moncada is gone. This isn't debating prospect positioning, this is clearly evident roster construction. Some other team would likely value him higher.

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4 minutes ago, Rolle Tide said:

It’s not my place to say…l don’t understand why some of you are taking this personal. You clearly have to give up something to get something. We will see what GM gets Cease and what he had to give up. If it’s not the Orioles we can then debate endlessly what might or might not have been better. If it’s the Orioles we can debate who won or lost or if the deal was fair. Pretty sure we probably won’t agree on that either. It’s just a discussion let’s try to keep it fun,  know I am!

Sorry. I certainly did not mean anything personal. I do not like the player. I do not think he is going to be an average mlb regular, therefore I do not want the Sox to acquire him and I do not believe he should play for the O’s ahead of Westburg and others. That is all.

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56 minutes ago, PolishPrince34 said:

I think that’s why the Baltimore posters are so eager to trade Ortiz because his value will continue to get dinged the longer he stays in the minors at age 26-27. 

 No Os fans are “eager” to trade him. We all like him. However, we have other guys and he is a good prospect in an area where we can afford to lose someone(s).

Personally,  I’m hoping someone values Westburg the same as Cowser or Kjerstad (I think all 3 have similar value because Westburg fared well in the majors) and we are able to deal him as a headliner in a trade, keep the OFers and start Ortiz at second.

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49 minutes ago, Rolle Tide said:

The problem is ….. You guys talked about the Yankees earlier in this thread. They don’t have a Top 50 prospect in their system. They have 73-75 and 95 ….. but in your eyes the #50 prospect is a nonstarter? I guess the Yankees are out then?

I’ve told you guys I’d rank Ortiz much closer to the back end of the top 100 because of his age and lack of ceiling.  Many of your brethren were very angry with me for suggesting that, but I simply don’t think he holds the value that other prospects in the 50’s do, at least not to a team like us that need potential difference makers.

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19 minutes ago, Rolle Tide said:

They just adjusted this list this fall. Bradfield hit .290, .800 OPS and is a CF. They were 2 slots apart. At this point it’s safe to say the value is comparable. 
 

“We’re” ? I’m not missing anything. Your interests have no more impact on Getz than mine with Elias. That’s a number between 0 and 0. 

Bradfield >>>>>>>>>> Gonzalez.

I'm not even going to defend the selection we made now that it turns out the 55 hit tool we thought we were getting is really a 20.

 

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5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’ve told you guys I’d rank Ortiz much closer to the back end of the top 100 because of his age and lack of ceiling.  Many of your brethren were very angry with me for suggesting that, but I simply don’t think he holds the value that other prospects in the 50’s do, at least not to a team like us that need potential difference makers.

I think he holds that value to a team who is closer to contention but has a need at SS. The Dodgers maybe? I know prospect for prospect trades aren't that common, but maybe someone like River Ryan + a guy outside their top 30 to get some immediate pitching help without trading away any other prospects.

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2 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Bradfield >>>>>>>>>> Gonzalez.

I'm not even going to defend the selection we made now that it turns out the 55 hit tool we thought we were getting is really a 20.

 

I think it's still way too early to say that, even though the results were way less than encouraging. We'll see what Gonzalez looks like in 2024.

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