Cease To Padres per Passan

[cuban_sammiches]

Let's start a Thom Brennaman discussion so we can put this thread out of its misery...

[poppysox]

21 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

If they keep Cease and solve RF, I think this team could easily be better than last year's. You had negative WAR at 4 positions last year. Just putting replacement level players in RF, 2B, SS and C probably adds 5 wins. 

And just having options vs. Lynn/Kopech/Toussant/Scholtens adds a few more. 

Let's not forget the most expensive bullpen in baseball that was a complete disaster.  I feel we have improved greatly by the removal of about 6 or 7 total bombs.

[WestEddy]

18 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Also, the rotation is still likely to be terrible even with Cease in it.

The team had negative WAR at 4 positions, and got less than a full win from 3 others. If they at least have a quicker hook for the horrible pitchers they throw out there, that could mitigate some damage (that is, if they're trying to put "W"s up on the board). Lynn and Kopech pretty much sucked all year. Maybe they stayed in the rotation, and Anderson stayed in the leadoff spot due to infighting in the front office. Who knows? 

If Chris Flexen or Soroka doesn't have it, I don't think it will take 20 starts to realize that, and somebody else will take their spots. 

[Bob Sacamano]

25 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

If they keep Cease and solve RF, I think this team could easily be better than last year's. You had negative WAR at 4 positions last year. Just putting replacement level players in RF, 2B, SS and C probably adds 5 wins. 

And just having options vs. Lynn/Kopech/Toussant/Scholtens adds a few more. 

 

2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Let's not forget the most expensive bullpen in baseball that was a complete disaster.  I feel we have improved greatly by the removal of about 6 or 7 total bombs.

Give me some of whatever it is you guys are smoking/snorting/injecting/drinking.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't remember this but I don't think there were a ton of rumors, in part because Hahn pulled off two other major trades that offseason with Boston and Washington so there weren't a ton of buyers left.

I don't remember any trade offer rumors for Quintana either.  I just remember KatyPerrysBootyHole getting the snub on breaking the news.  Chuck only mentioned wetbutt23.

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/s/fTkpckR0H6

[WhiteSox2023]

7 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

 

Give me some of whatever it is you guys are smoking/snorting/injecting/drinking.

Sure, they’ll be better.  They’ll lose 90 games instead of 101.

11 win improvement!  ?

Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Sure, they’ll be better.  They’ll lose 90 games instead of 101.

11 win improvement!  ?

This could absolutely happen just by random chance, fwiw. The White Sox finished 5 games ahead of the Royals last year, but the Royals had a better run differential than the White Sox, so those two teams were actually inverted based on how they performed. Random stuff does happen like that. 

[WhiteSox2023]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

This could absolutely happen just by random chance, fwiw. The White Sox finished 5 games ahead of the Royals last year, but the Royals had a better run differential than the White Sox, so those two teams were actually inverted based on how they performed. Random stuff does happen like that. 

Agreed, I still think the Sox are gonna suck hard regardless.

[WestEddy]

12 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Give me some of whatever it is you guys are smoking/snorting/injecting/drinking.

You give me what you're shooting up with, first. It's almost like "the experts" here have no idea how bad this team was last year. If you replace [minus] 5 bWAR with 0 (zero) bWAR, that's an improvement. I guess it's fun to keep repeating that this team will lose 140 games next year. They won't. 

Instead of just posting laughing emojis and calling us stupid or high, please tell us how a zero WAR player who can field his position will make the team worse than a [minus] 2 WAR player who thought he was playing soccer when a ground ball came his way. 

[BigHurt3515]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Look, we allow you to be here, but if you are just going to personally attack people, you won't be.  It's that simple.

On nobody's side but what you bolded is not a personal attack lol

[ChiSoxFanMike]

This thread now has more replies than any other thread in the history of the Pale Hose Talk section of this forum. Wow.

[WestEddy]

11 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Sure, they’ll be better.  They’ll lose 90 games instead of 101.

11 win improvement!

Again, please explain the joke to me. 72 wins is more than 61. Go nuts and throw another 5 wins through regression or not letting a Lance Lynn or Michael Kopech start 20 games to realize they suck, and now you're in the mid-70s. 

It's like the glum crowd is really a bunch of drama queens wanting to pretend they're victims because their team won't win this year. Everybody here wants the Sox to win 120 games and the World Series every year. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but they don't. So some of us choose to not just whine for 3 months about it. 

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

This thread now has more replies than any other thread in the history of the Pale Hose Talk section of this forum. Wow.

It's not that exciting lol

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

You give me what you're shooting up with, first. It's almost like "the experts" here have no idea how bad this team was last year. If you replace [minus] 5 bWAR with 0 (zero) bWAR, that's an improvement. I guess it's fun to keep repeating that this team will lose 140 games next year. They won't. 

Instead of just posting laughing emojis and calling us stupid or high, please tell us how a zero WAR player who can field his position will make the team worse than a [minus] 2 WAR player who thought he was playing soccer when a ground ball came his way. 

According to Fangraphs, the only 2 players the White Sox had worth <-1 fWAR last year were...Oscar Colas and Gavin Sheets. Who happen to be potentially back in their RF rotation.

Guys that the White Sox are missing - 1.5 fWAR from Jake Burger, 2.2 fWAR from punchy mcspitonbabyface, 1.6 fWAR from Giolito, and a trace from other guys like Lynn, Lopez, Kelly. They are also potentially missing 1.6 fWAR for Santos depending on the health of his arm.

The two big contributors, Cease and Robert, also both have some downside risk. We are hoping Cease is better next year, but if his fastball continues to weaken this isn't required. We are hoping Robert stays healthy, but this isn't required, and Robert also is heavily relying on extreme athletic ability due to a pretty aggressive approach at the plate, that may not work forever as well.

So while they cleared out some negative with Anderson, they cleared out some positive guys in the trades and as a free agent or two as well. Some guys will have to improve to balance out what was lost as well. 

[Bob Sacamano]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Agreed, I still think the Sox are gonna suck hard regardless.

Of course. 90+ losses easily. Probably over 100.

Edited January 12 by Bob Sacamano

[Sox72]

6 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

This thread now has more replies than any other thread in the history of the Pale Hose Talk section of this forum. Wow.

Half from one single Orioles fan. 

[WhiteSox2023]

13 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Again, please explain the joke to me. 72 wins is more than 61. Go nuts and throw another 5 wins through regression or not letting a Lance Lynn or Michael Kopech start 20 games to realize they suck, and now you're in the mid-70s. 

It's like the glum crowd is really a bunch of drama queens wanting to pretend they're victims because their team won't win this year. Everybody here wants the Sox to win 120 games and the World Series every year. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but they don't. So some of us choose to not just whine for 3 months about it. 

Many of Getz’s additions on the defensive side are of the one year variety.  What happens in 2025 when those guys are gone?  When Cease is gone and Getz didn’t work a better return than the Sale trade?  If the collection of pitchers Getz acquired don’t all mostly pan out?

Any incremental improvement next year doesn’t automatically mean it will carry over into 2025.  Even if it somehow does, the team’s owner will simply refuse to spend the money required to further improve the team when and if the time actually comes.

Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023

[poppysox]

5 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Again, please explain the joke to me. 72 wins is more than 61. Go nuts and throw another 5 wins through regression or not letting a Lance Lynn or Michael Kopech start 20 games to realize they suck, and now you're in the mid-70s. 

It's like the glum crowd is really a bunch of drama queens wanting to pretend they're victims because their team won't win this year. Everybody here wants the Sox to win 120 games and the World Series every year. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but they don't. So some of us choose to not just whine for 3 months about it. 

Also, when a bullpen sucks the manager looks like an idiot.  Good bullpens make managers look like geniuses.  For the most part all managers know the x's and o's.  Pedro may well have kept his job because insiders are aware of cancers in the clubhouse that were outside of a manager's ability to control.  

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

According to Fangraphs, the only 2 players the White Sox had worth <-1 fWAR last year were...Oscar Colas and Gavin Sheets. Who happen to be potentially back in their RF rotation.

I'm going by B-R. Catching (I know that WAR isn't a good indicator for catchers), RF, 2B and SS were black holes for wins, last year, and a quick addition of the guys who got the most PAs at those positions looks like negative bWAR. I would expect Benintendi, Eloy and Vaughn to at least inch up towards their means this year, unless those are the players they are. 

Nobody's claiming they're going to win the next 3 world series. It's not "insane", or I'm not "high on crack" to state that the 2024 team can win more games than last year. 

Seriously, is there a rules of the site page here, where I should have read that being positive about a bad team is not allowed?

[WhiteSox2023]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I'm going by B-R. Catching (I know that WAR isn't a good indicator for catchers), RF, 2B and SS were black holes for wins, last year, and a quick addition of the guys who got the most PAs at those positions looks like negative bWAR. I would expect Benintendi, Eloy and Vaughn to at least inch up towards their means this year, unless those are the players they are. 

Nobody's claiming they're going to win the next 3 world series. It's not "insane", or I'm not "high on crack" to state that the 2024 team can win more games than last year. 

Seriously, is there a rules of the site page here, where I should have read that being positive about a bad team is not allowed?

The Sox had their best chance in years and managed to blow it.  We also saw what Reinsdorf did to contribute to this implosion (TLR, no top free agents, terrible mid-level FA signings, same cheap dumpster diving, etc.).  There has been no signs of anything changing this offseason either.  Nothing will truly improve until he is gone.

Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023

[Chick Mercedes]

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I'm going by B-R. Catching (I know that WAR isn't a good indicator for catchers), RF, 2B and SS were black holes for wins, last year, and a quick addition of the guys who got the most PAs at those positions looks like negative bWAR. I would expect Benintendi, Eloy and Vaughn to at least inch up towards their means this year, unless those are the players they are. 

Nobody's claiming they're going to win the next 3 world series. It's not "insane", or I'm not "high on crack" to state that the 2024 team can win more games than last year. 

Seriously, is there a rules of the site page here, where I should have read that being positive about a bad team is not allowed?

Tray can answer your questions

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Any incremental improvement next year doesn’t automatically mean it will carry over into 2025.  Even if it somehow does, the team’s owner will simply refuse to spend the money required to further improve the team when and if the time actually comes.

The 2024 team doesn't have to get better in 2025. That's what Colson Montgomery and crew are supposed to do. Chris Flexen isn't the long term answer. Neither is Nicky Lopez. And sure, they can blow through every pitcher they signed in the last 2 months by the end of May. But I think it will be interesting to see what Bannister and Katz can do with Soroka and Fedde. 

The whole point is to put a good defensive team out there. I believe that alone will make 2024's team better than 2023's. I also think the plan is to have competent place-holders that prospects have to beat out for those positions. I'm already breathlessly happy that we're not running Micah Johnsons or Jacob Mays out there and hyping the crap out of guys who will take 6 weeks to get their first major league hit, or play their first inning of gaffe free ball. 

[WestEddy]

3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

There has been no signs of anything changing this offseason either.  Nothing will truly improve until he is gone.

I think there has been signs of something changing. Sure, JR could derail everything by running Gene LaMont back out there to right another old "wrong", but it sure looks like Getz has a plan, where Hahn/KW didn't. 

[WhiteSox2023]

Just now, WestEddy said:

The 2024 team doesn't have to get better in 2025. That's what Colson Montgomery and crew are supposed to do. Chris Flexen isn't the long term answer. Neither is Nicky Lopez. And sure, they can blow through every pitcher they signed in the last 2 months by the end of May. But I think it will be interesting to see what Bannister and Katz can do with Soroka and Fedde. 

The whole point is to put a good defensive team out there. I believe that alone will make 2024's team better than 2023's. I also think the plan is to have competent place-holders that prospects have to beat out for those positions. I'm already breathlessly happy that we're not running Micah Johnsons or Jacob Mays out there and hyping the crap out of guys who will take 6 weeks to get their first major league hit, or play their first inning of gaffe free ball. 

Colson Montgomery and crew?  Montgomery is probably the only prospect the Sox have that is close to being a “sure thing” major leaguer in the Sox entire farm system.

[poppysox]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

According to Fangraphs, the only 2 players the White Sox had worth <-1 fWAR last year were...Oscar Colas and Gavin Sheets. Who happen to be potentially back in their RF rotation.

Guys that the White Sox are missing - 1.5 fWAR from Jake Burger, 2.2 fWAR from punchy mcspitonbabyface, 1.6 fWAR from Giolito, and a trace from other guys like Lynn, Lopez, Kelly. They are also potentially missing 1.6 fWAR for Santos depending on the health of his arm.

The two big contributors, Cease and Robert, also both have some downside risk. We are hoping Cease is better next year, but if his fastball continues to weaken this isn't required. We are hoping Robert stays healthy, but this isn't required, and Robert also is heavily relying on extreme athletic ability due to a pretty aggressive approach at the plate, that may not work forever as well.

So while they cleared out some negative with Anderson, they cleared out some positive guys in the trades and as a free agent or two as well. Some guys will have to improve to balance out what was lost as well. 

Graveman, Kelly, Grandal, Anderson, Bummer were beyond terrible.  That's 20% of the core.