Snowy Demon Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Mayo keeps getting labeled untouchable. Mayo too...but that's only if he can stick at third. But then Basallo has no ideal position either because he will always be the backup catcher. Which means his value to Baltimore is higher in the trade market than at 1B DH corner outfield. Henderson or Holliday would have to play 3B unless you moved one to second. But that depends on Mayo Westburg Henderson being better suited for third... Lots of moving parts. Rotating DH is fine. And then they have to have a replacement for Mullins... Logically Cowser Basallo Mayo Westburg, two of those four go and the other two are then critical pieces of the core, along with Brad field in center. But zero percent chance you hold all of them and retain the value they have currently at the big league level. You just can't. Ortiz is already leaking value...which is why they're desperate to get something for him now. But he could never be a centerpiece after the Madrigal failure...not for the White Sox at least. And when they just traded Burger art I all you due to age and maxed out value. Agree on most of these except Basallo. Big question is will the Orioles extend Rutchman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 6 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: Maybe to cover for a couple of years but should they be that concerned about not having a "real CF prospect" over the next couple of years? Cedric Mullins also has 2 years of control left. All depends on his salaries. He has a great 2024 season and it becomes a conundrum whether to hold or trade...see Barnes with Mil. The difference is that Milwaukee can't compete without Burnes. Baltimore can overcome Mullins. So this whole BS about Ortiz Urias Mateo and back end rotation guys with diminishing control is totally preposterous for a GM in Getz's position. All this speculation assumes Kjerstad holding on a corner as well. So really it's 2/4 or 3/5 they keep. Any combo of Basallo Mayo Westburg Kjerstad Cowser. 2/5 have to be the table for a deal to work. But Elias is sticking at one and 3-4 secondary pieces. One of them isn't Bradfield because Cowser isn't a legit big league CFer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 4 minutes ago, Snowy Demon said: Agree on most of these except Basallo. Big question is will the Orioles extend Rutchman? No they can't afford to and catchers age out in late 20s early 30s. Look at Mauer. Basallo to stay on roster would have 40-60 days catching the rest at DH and RF or LF or 1B. A lot like Melendez on KC. But Basallo possesses so much more trade value as a pure catcher...unless they hold him long term and trade Rutschman at max value. Then Basallo slots in. But Rutschman is an Arozarena or Franco to Baltimore. Franchise icons...but even they are eventually replaceable in that business model. Franco is long forgotten with Caminero in already. All that said...Holliday and Henderson will hold their value much better and are where the extensions have to go eventually. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Demon Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 This is a speculation on my part, but Mike Elias could be waiting on the Marlins. Cease may not be his first choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 1 minute ago, caulfield12 said: No they can't afford to and catchers age out in late 20s early 30s. Look at Mauer. Basallo to stay on roster would have 40-60 days catching the rest at DH and RF or LF or 1B. A lot like Melendez on KC. But Basallo possesses so much more trade value as a pure catcher...unless they hold him long term and trade Rutschman at max value. Then Basallo slots in. But Rutschman is an Arozarena or Franco to Baltimore. Franchise icons...but even they are eventually replaceable in that business model. Franco is long forgotten with Caminero in already. All that said...Holliday and Henderson will hold their value much better and are where the extensions have to go eventually. Right. You can’t just hold onto everyone. Guys eventually need to be added to the 40-man and guys run out of options. Elias seems hellbent on trying though. Edited January 13 by Bob Sacamano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Demon Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 minute ago, caulfield12 said: No they can't afford to and catchers age out in late 20s early 30s. I agree with you completely. A catcher like Rutchman should be kept from playing too much. That is why Basallo looks to be another prospect they should keep. Obviously, there is no way knowing if Basallo stays at C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 43 minutes ago, Snowy Demon said: This is a speculation on my part, but Mike Elias could be waiting on the Marlins. Cease may not be his first choice. Of course. LHP. High high velocity well over Cease last year. Both with singular TJ’s to their names. 2016 for Luzardo. Cease 2014-15…fairly equivalent risks there. Luzardo only $5.5 million and will be co aces with Eury Perez. Conclusion they can’t and won’t trade Luzardo. Luzardo will make $5.5 million in 2024. The 26-year-old left is expected to be the Marlins' ace in 2024 with Sandy Alcantara out while recovering from Tommy John surgery. Luzardo in 2023 set career highs in 2023 in starts (32), innings pitched (178 2/3) and strikeouts (208). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Demon Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Of course. LHP. High high velocity well over Cease last year. Both with singular TJ’s to their names. 2016 for Luzardo. Cease 2014-15…fairly equivalent risks there. Luzardo only $5.5 million and will be co aces with Eury Perez. Conclusion they can’t and won’t trade Luzardo. Luzardo will make $5.5 million in 2024. The 26-year-old left is expected to be the Marlins' ace in 2024 with Sandy Alcantara out while recovering from Tommy John surgery. Luzardo in 2023 set career highs in 2023 in starts (32), innings pitched (178 2/3) and strikeouts (208). I was thinking more of Braxton Garrett but Luzardo is also another target. A left hander at Camden Yard will be more valuable. That is why the Orioles should try DL Hall as a starter. He has had control issues as well as injury issues, but he has 3 plus pitches with great fastball and still 25 years old. Also, lefties tend to develop slower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, caulfield12 said: Mayo keeps getting labeled untouchable. Mayo too...but that's only if he can stick at third. But then Basallo has no ideal position either because he will always be the backup catcher. Which means his value to Baltimore is higher in the trade market than at 1B DH corner outfield. Henderson or Holliday would have to play 3B unless you moved one to second. But that depends on Mayo Westburg Henderson being better suited for third... Lots of moving parts. Rotating DH is fine. And then they have to have a replacement for Mullins... Logically Cowser Basallo Mayo Westburg, two of those four go and the other two are then critical pieces of the core, along with Brad field in center. But zero percent chance you hold all of them and retain the value they have currently at the big league level. You just can't. Ortiz is already leaking value...which is why they're desperate to get something for him now. But he could never be a centerpiece after the Madrigal failure...not for the White Sox at least. And when they just traded Burger art I all you due to age and maxed out value. This just isn’t true…Mayo in RF, Basallo at first/back up C, Cowser in LF, Westburg at second, Kjerstad at first/RF/DH They actually have a lot of potential flexibility. Elias wants versatile guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 18 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: This just isn’t true…Mayo in RF, Basallo at first/back up C, Cowser in LF, Westburg at second, Kjerstad at first/RF/DH They actually have a lot of potential flexibility. Elias wants versatile guys. It looks like Coby Mayo has never played outfield, so it is kinda strange you’re assuming he has that versatility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said: It looks like Coby Mayo has never played outfield, so it is kinda strange you’re assuming he has that versatility. He has the arm and athleticism for it and the Orioles have already said this offseason that he will be out there and is already training for it I believe. Mayo is a big time team first guy. He has been very much, whatever you need me to do, I will do. It’s one of the things they love about him. Im guessing it won’t be difficult for him to take to the OF. I haven’t thought he would go out there but the presence of Basallo makes that thought more sensible. Before it was him or Kjerstad And that didn’t make sense to put him in the OF and Kjerstad at first but Basallo changes that equation even though most feel he can stay at C, at least for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 15 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: He has the arm and athleticism for it and the Orioles have already said this offseason that he will be out there and is already training for it I believe. Mayo is a big time team first guy. He has been very much, whatever you need me to do, I will do. It’s one of the things they love about him. Im guessing it won’t be difficult for him to take to the OF. I haven’t thought he would go out there but the presence of Basallo makes that thought more sensible. Before it was him or Kjerstad And that didn’t make sense to put him in the OF and Kjerstad at first but Basallo changes that equation even though most feel he can stay at C, at least for the time being. Sounds a lot like what we went through with Vaughn, Eloy and Sheets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) Love how other teams can count on infielders playing adequately in the outfield lol. So back to Norby and Ortiz, the Nicky Lopez and De Jong killers. Great. Super excited about those two. Even a bit psyched. Edited January 13 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty22hotty Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 2 hours ago, Sports Guy said: This just isn’t true…Mayo in RF, Basallo at first/back up C, Cowser in LF, Westburg at second, Kjerstad at first/RF/DH They actually have a lot of potential flexibility. Elias wants versatile guys. cowser will not replace hays in LF until 2026. So you're willing to hoard 3 best case 50 grade RFs for an extra 2 years instead of building the best AL team in 24/25? okay Face it, Mayo and Kjer have no place on the orioles and your GM is just going to waste their primes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, scotty22hotty said: cowser will not replace hays in LF until 2026. So you're willing to hoard 3 best case 50 grade RFs for an extra 2 years instead of building the best AL team in 24/25? okay Face it, Mayo and Kjer have no place on the orioles and your GM is just going to waste their primes... Hays won’t be starting that long…they won’t pay him and they shouldn’t. He’s not THAT good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Are any of third base prospects better than Ramos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 2 hours ago, Sports Guy said: Hays won’t be starting that long…they won’t pay him and they shouldn’t. He’s not THAT good. The tough replacements will be Mullins and Santander. Wild card will be Dillon Tate out for the bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: The tough replacements will be Mullins and Santander. Wild card will be Dillon Tate out for the bullpen. Mullins is only a tough replacement defensively but that’s why they drafted Bradfield. Santander is a good but not great player who has a lot of potential replacements. Tate didn’t pitch in 2023. He had a good 2022 because he actually threw strikes. Prior to that, he was a dime a dozen guy. I would have traded him after 2022. I don’t have much hope for him although it would be a nice boost to the pen if he could be 2022 Tate again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Caitlyn Clark for entire Orioles' franchise... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 23 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: Mullins is only a tough replacement defensively but that’s why they drafted Bradfield. Santander is a good but not great player who has a lot of potential replacements. Tate didn’t pitch in 2023. He had a good 2022 because he actually threw strikes. Prior to that, he was a dime a dozen guy. I would have traded him after 2022. I don’t have much hope for him although it would be a nice boost to the pen if he could be 2022 Tate again. You're assuming Mullins isn't the near MVP he was for one half season. Santander is a key veteran leader and WBC stud. You still need a few veteran leaders sprinkled in. There's just no way that the bullpen is as good as 2023. And it was the #2-4 guys that all excelled, not just Bautista. They have those three swing guys that can start and relieve along with Hall...but zero certainty in that #3 guy you have to have for a short playoff series. How many are betting betting their houses on Bradish repeating? But they won't desperately need to add until the trade deadline...of course, it might be too late then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 25 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: You're assuming Mullins isn't the near MVP he was for one half season. Santander is a key veteran leader and WBC stud. You still need a few veteran leaders sprinkled in. There's just no way that the bullpen is as good as 2023. And it was the #2-4 guys that all excelled, not just Bautista. They have those three swing guys that can start and relieve along with Hall...but zero certainty in that #3 guy you have to have for a short playoff series. How many are betting betting their houses on Bradish repeating? But they won't desperately need to add until the trade deadline...of course, it might be too late then. 1) Mullins is getting older and has a game that relies a lot on speed. A CFer on the wrong side of 30 who relies on speed isn’t someone I want to rely on or sign, whether Bradfield develops or not. 2) Santander being a WBC stud is irrelevant. He is a good player but normally the OBP isn’t great, the OpS is 800ish and the defense is meh. I like him and he’s a nice role player type piece to have but he’s nothing special. 3) The thing about vet leader is that they were one young players. Adley is the team leader and other guys will emerge too. Leadership is the absolute last thing I’m concerned about. This team is extremely close. They are all very close friends who have grown with each other in the system. They will probably sprinkle in a vet here or there but yea, the absolutely last thing I’m concerned about is leadership or chemistry. 4) Yea, they need another starter. As I have never argued against. 5) Don't love the pen..would like to add another guy like Stephenson, depending on the contract. 6) there isn’t much reason to doubt Bradish. He had a lot of excellent starts, both new and old school and I believe he was second in stuff+ in 2023 amongst starters. He may have some drop off, as can happen with anyone coming off a career year but I doubt it will be some real noticeable one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 https://nypost.com/2024/01/11/sports/marlins-might-be-willing-to-entertain-luis-arraez-offers/The Orioles have considered every starter from Marcus Stroman on down (they couldn’t seriously consider Blake Snell or Jordan Montgomery “unless the market collapsed.”) Baltimore also has been eying James Paxton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) Relying on the likes of Paxton is absolutely nuts… Still doesn’t solve the playoff rotation issue even if they manage to get through the East. Their strategy is the same as the White Sox thinking the Machado market would collapse and hold…that there wouldn’t be one other team out of 30 willing to outbid them when push came to shove. Edited January 14 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Who would the O’s trade from their existing major and minor leaguers to get Jackson Holliday…imagine for the purposes of this exercise that Holliday was on an expansion team starting play in 2025. No veterans in their final 2-3 years. No Urias Mateo Norby Ortiz swing pitchers or spare parts. Rutschman Westburg Henderson all eligible to be traded. Basallo Mayo Kjerstad Cowser Hall etc. The package you would be willing to offer for Holliday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 1 hour ago, caulfield12 said: Relying on the likes of Paxton is absolutely nuts… Still doesn’t solve the playoff rotation issue even if they manage to get through the East. Their strategy is the same as the White Sox thinking the Machado market would collapse and hold…that there wouldn’t be one other team out of 30 willing to outbid them when push came to shove. He’s a waste of any amount of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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