caulfield12 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 35 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: I would love to add him but I wouldn’t trade Holliday or Basallo for him. Hes an amazing talent signed to an incredible deal but the best ability is availability and he simply hasn’t been available for most of his career. Thats not something I would be willing to overlook (I don’t think Elias would either) but I think other teams would…Seattle and the Giants immediately jump to mind. SF just signed JungHo Lee to play CF, where his value is surely the highest. And they don't have a great farm to deal with, either. Seattle certainly has a need but putting Julio Rodriguez or Robert on a corner diminishes their value. I guess Julio with the stronger arm would move to RF and that would be slightly less wear and tear on his body, overall. And it's not like the White Sox are going to trade for Gilbert or Kirby...they're going to want near major league-ready guys. To make it work, though, Getz would have to take one of those pitchers back plus the AA/AAA prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 6 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: After all of the chatter last deadline and being two months into the offseason, I'm resigning myself to that too. As much as we've been dreaming on getting ahold of a few of Baltimore's stud prospects, I don't think the O's are willing to meet the asking price. Agreed. I don’t see it happening. Elias doesn’t want to move his top prospects. Not sure how the Orioles hope to seal the deal when his big offseason move was Kimbrel for closer. Yikes… 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 28, 2023 Author Share Posted December 28, 2023 41 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: Teams can absolutely afford him. I doubt any team outside of you guys could. Realistically, I’d need Holliday, Mayo, Kjerstad, & Beavers / Bradfield as the starting point with a couple of lower-tier prospects also thrown into the mix. I know you’ll say that’s way too much, but that’s legit what Robert is worth. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey21 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 6 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Not sure how you can say that struggling in the majors doesn’t impact a player’s value. So if Cowser hit 10 homeruns in his first 77 MLB plate appearances, his value wouldn’t have jumped up more? Of course it would. Just like the inverse is true. Their fanbase wouldn’t be as open to trading him of course. He struggled so let’s give him up instead of Kjerstad who looked more competent or Mayo who is raking in the minors 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Agreed. I don’t see it happening. Elias doesn’t want to move his top prospects. Not sure how the Orioles hope to seal the deal when his big offseason move was Kimbrel for closer. Yikes… Good luck to them with the ghost of Craig Kimbrel closing games against the AL East. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 8 minutes ago, Rey21 said: Their fanbase wouldn’t be as open to trading him of course. He struggled so let’s give him up instead of Kjerstad who looked more competent or Mayo who is raking in the minors You need to stop putting Mayo on the same level as Kjerstad or Cowser. You have no chance at getting Mayo. He should be starting at first base by May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Tnetennba said: Good luck to them with the ghost of Craig Kimbrel closing games against the AL East. That’s not going to be pretty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I doubt any team outside of you guys could. Realistically, I’d need Holliday, Mayo, Kjerstad, & Beavers / Bradfield as the starting point with a couple of lower-tier prospects also thrown into the mix. I know you’ll say that’s way too much, but that’s legit what Robert is worth. That’s more than Juan Soto got, way more, so I don’t think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nardiwashere Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: Zero Os fans have their top 5 guys as untouchable. Cease was a frontline guy one year of his career. You seem to think his value should be that right now and that’s just not true. If you guys were looking to trade for Cease with all his red flags and issues, no one here would be advocating to trade top 25 prospects for him. All of that said, the WS have generally showed more of a willingness to spend money than our POS owner has, so that always factors into things. 1. It seems like the top 5 guys are untouchable based on everything you are saying and I’ve seen other Baltimore fans say. 2. Trust me. If the Sox won 101 games, got swept in first round, had no intention of spending money, and had a farm system like Baltimore with redundant pieces, the fan base would be in an uproar if they refused to pay up for a guy like Cease. 3. The fact that Baltimore ownership doesn’t spend seems even more of a reason to trade prospects from a deep system. Windows can close pretty quickly and unexpectedly. We’ve seen that happen here on both sides of town. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nardiwashere Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, bmags said: That’s more than Juan Soto got, way more, so I don’t think so. One year of Soto vs 4 years of Robert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said: 1. It seems like the top 5 guys are untouchable based on everything you are saying and I’ve seen other Baltimore fans say. 2. Trust me. If the Sox won 101 games, got swept in first round, had no intention of spending money, and had a farm system like Baltimore with redundant pieces, the fan base would be in an uproar if they refused to pay up for a guy like Cease. 3. The fact that Baltimore ownership doesn’t spend seems even more of a reason to trade prospects from a deep system. Windows can close pretty quickly and unexpectedly. We’ve seen that happen here on both sides of town. The difference between you and us is we have actual competent people running things. Our ownership blows, in terms of spending money on the ML roster, but all the other decision makers are arguably the best in the sport right now. The development is elite. And no, it’s the opposite. If you don’t spend, you need as much cheap talent as possible. And again, nothing I have said or anything else being said by fans is that our top 5 are untouchable. Edited December 28, 2023 by Sports Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 4 minutes ago, bmags said: That’s more than Juan Soto got, way more, so I don’t think so. I assume you are referring to the first Soto trade from the Nationals to the Padres? Soto only had 2 years of control at the time. Robert has 4 years of control. Big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sox72 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 34 minutes ago, fathom said: For Robert you wouldn’t trade those guys? Woof Kind of puts the weight with which you should give his posts into perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 28, 2023 Author Share Posted December 28, 2023 23 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: No..Overlooking his durability issues would be foolish for any team. Holliday will be a 6 WAR type guy soon and Basallo has Yordan Alvarez type upside. He is an absolute beast and is doing it at ages that are incredibly young for his league. There is a fairly good chance he ends 2024 as the top prospect in the sport. There is a solid argument that Basallo has a higher ceiling than Holliday. You continue to assume every one of your prospects is going to pan out. Even 70 FV & 65 FV prospects bust and many of them underperform. Assuming a kid will be a 6 WAR player is absolutely wild. Don’t get me wrong, Holliday is stud prospect but the key word there is prospect. There are no guarantees. And sure, Robert hasn’t been a beacon of health, but we just saw a small built Japanese pitcher with quite a bit of mileage on his arm and who hasn’t thrown a single pitch in the majors sign the largest pitcher contract in baseball history. Luis Robert is an absolutely insane athlete coming off a 5 win season in the most broken org in baseball and with little protection. Given he’s due $67.5M at max over the next four years (with two options to boot), he is a top five asset in all of baseball and there really isn’t an argument here like with Cease. You may feel he has durability concerns, but I can assure you most GMs would give up their first born to get their hands on him despite his past track record of health. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey21 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: You need to stop putting Mayo on the same level as Kjerstad or Cowser. You have no chance at getting Mayo. He should be starting at first base by May. So then if you’re Chris Getz, essentially everyone is off the table as a headliner outside of a dude who came up and stunk in his first taste and the wonderful Jim Callis isn’t a fan of, what would you do? If Elias isn’t willing to play ball then again there really isn’t a deal to be had with the O’s 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalChiSox Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 24 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: Zero Os fans have their top 5 guys as untouchable. Cease was a frontline guy one year of his career. You seem to think his value should be that right now and that’s just not true. If you guys were looking to trade for Cease with all his red flags and issues, no one here would be advocating to trade top 25 prospects for him. All of that said, the WS have generally showed more of a willingness to spend money than our POS owner has, so that always factors into things. I would rather have Angelos than Reinsdorf. They are both bottom tier owners but even though your POS owner is more cheap than ours (I can't believe I am saying this) at least yours has the good sense to actually objectively hire strong competent and highly qualified people and make the necessary investments in infrastructure, analytics and eggheads. Evidently, our cheap POS owner doesn't understand that you can have a payroll half our size and still very more successful than we are if you just make some decent infrastructure investments that will be pennies in a bucket in the big picture. Instead, our POS would rather hire incompetent folks who couldn't get a similar job anywhere else just so that he could use that as leverage to force them to do whatever he wants with his stupid meddling ways and dumb philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 Just now, Rey21 said: So then if you’re Chris Getz, essentially everyone is off the table as a headliner outside of a dude who came up and stunk in his first taste and the wonderful Jim Callis isn’t a fan of, what would you do? If Elias isn’t willing to play ball then again there really isn’t a deal to be had with the O’s Cowser or Kjerstad as a headliner is as good as you guys will get. A top 40ish prospect and higher by some. You aren’t doing better than that. You can dream on it and hope but it’s not happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 Just now, SoCalChiSox said: I would rather have Angelos than Reinsdorf. They are both bottom tier owners but even though your POS owner is more cheap than ours (I can't believe I am saying this) at least yours has the good sense to actually objectively hire strong competent and highly qualified people and make the necessary investments in infrastructure, analytics and eggheads. Evidently, our cheap POS owner doesn't understand that you can have a payroll half our size and still very more successful than we are if you just make some decent infrastructure investments that will be pennies in a bucket in the big picture. Instead, our POS would rather hire incompetent folks who couldn't get a similar job anywhere else just so that he could use that as leverage to force them to do whatever he wants with his stupid meddling ways and dumb philosophy. Yea, arguing between the 2 is like pissing in the wind. I feel sorry for you guys have Reinsdorf. I personally can’t stand what role he played in breaking up the Bulls in the 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey21 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 Could we be overvaluaing Dylan Cease, sure 100% but the Sox hold all the cards here, it’s not like he is making $30 mil next year and are trying to dump salary, I guarantee you most if not all teams would happily slot in a dude for the next 2 years, making a measly $10 mil max, has made 30+ starts each of the last 3 seasons, with Cy Young potential for prospects. It’s about finding a deal that makes sense for Chris Getz, if it’s not out there then so be it, last thing he’s gonna do though is settle for a lackluster return (Cowser & Ortiz) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Sports Guy said: Cowser or Kjerstad as a headliner is as good as you guys will get. A top 40ish prospect and higher by some. You aren’t doing better than that. You can dream on it and hope but it’s not happening. I don’t understand these comments. You can say Sox fans are expecting far too much, and that may be true, but you are also making claims as if you are the Orioles GM and know exactly what offer Elias would accept. Neither side truly knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: You continue to assume every one of your prospects is going to pan out. Even 70 FV & 65 FV prospects bust and many of them underperform. Assuming a kid will be a 6 WAR player is absolutely wild. Don’t get me wrong, Holliday is stud prospect but the key word there is prospect. There are no guarantees. And sure, Robert hasn’t been a beacon of health, but we just saw a small built Japanese pitcher with quite a bit of mileage on his arm and who hasn’t thrown a single pitch in the majors sign the largest pitcher contract in baseball history. Luis Robert is an absolutely insane athlete coming off a 5 win season in the most broken org in baseball and with little protection. Given he’s due $67.5M at max over the next four years (with two options to boot), he is a top five asset in all of baseball and there really isn’t an argument here like with Cease. You may feel he has durability concerns, but I can assure you most GMs would give up their first born to get their hands on him despite his past track record of health. I’m assuming the elite guys will pan out. Everything about their profiles says that is the case. And I’m good with teams doing that. Lots of teams do incredibly stupid things all the time. I’m not interested in my team doing moronic things. And btw, you guys assume Cease is going to bounce back and be really good again..that’s a major assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey21 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: Cowser or Kjerstad as a headliner is as good as you guys will get. A top 40ish prospect and higher by some. You aren’t doing better than that. You can dream on it and hope but it’s not happening. Kjerstad it is then, start the write up on your forum and let’s all get everyone on board 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 Here’s a question — what good rotation starter with ace potential can the Orioles sign or trade for right now that they can actually afford with their payroll? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 Just now, WhiteSox2023 said: I don’t understand these comments. You can say Sox fans are expecting far too much, and that may be true, but you are also making claims as if you are the Orioles GM and know exactly what offer Elias would accept. Neither side truly knows. The claims are obvious…do you really think if Getz was getting top 25 prospects thrown at him that he would be sitting around and not moving Cease? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 Just now, WhiteSox2023 said: Here’s a question — what good rotation starter with ace potential can the Orioles sign or trade for right now that they can actually afford with their payroll? Burnes, Cease, Luzardo… to a lesser extent younger unproven, high ceiling guys and Bieber although where he is in a rotation is definitely up for debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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