ChiSox59 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, ptatc said: Isn't that what fan boards are for though? Wasting time. For sure. I waste plenty of time here. But I am a die hard white sox fan. Its a tad different. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ptatc said: I don't think that different. If he is set on his offer and won't change it, that is exactly saying he knows what Cease is worth, at least in his mind. It's an good quality to stick to your opinion but it could cost you a player. You knows maybe he's right and the players he keeps will help the team more in the long run than Cease. You do understand that more pitchers than Cease are available right? Elias likely knows what he wants to pay. He knows what the most he will pay is. But he also knows what else he is going to pay elsewhere and what he is hearing from other teams. I said it before..if he comes away from this offseason without a legit starter, Elias has failed. A lot of Os fans disagree with that but I think they aren’t being realistic. But Cease doesn’t have to be that pitcher. You guys seem to think he has to be that guy, that he is the only option. That is just not true. Edited January 5 by Sports Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 50 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Or, all 4 teams want Cease and all submit offers for him and Getz gets the pick of the best offer? And may even then try to get the teams to up their offers slightly, using this multiple team competition for his services. You sure seem to think it’s your way or the highway, as if you were a planted bug on Getz’s cell phone. At some point you move to a blind bid process and tell teams to present their best offers. Obviously we’re not there yet, but once that happens one potential buyer will usually go above the rest of the pack because they have no idea what they’re bidding against and don’t want to lose out on the prized asset. The key is to ensure there is enough known interest to keep bids honest. With the remaining options available being less than desirable, it seems we’re rapidly getting closer to that time. Fingers crossed, but so far Getz has managed this process well from what’s been made publicly available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said: For sure. I waste plenty of time here. But I am a die hard white sox fan. Its a tad different. But then there's that flaw in human logic where we start arguing with points that we fundamentally agree with, just because of somebody's conceited tone, or whatnot, and we have to make them wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 minutes ago, ptatc said: Isn't that what fan boards are for though? Wasting time. Info and entertainment. And also yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 minutes ago, WestEddy said: But then there's that flaw in human logic where we start arguing with points that we fundamentally agree with, just because of somebody's conceited tone, or whatnot, and we have to make them wrong. What? No? Here? Never! Hahahahahahaa. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 7 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: For sure. I waste plenty of time here. But I am a die hard white sox fan. Its a tad different. True, there are occasional useful discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 49 minutes ago, fathom said: Why are you so sure they’re not putting Mayo or Basallo in a deal? This is what I’d also like to know. Obviously Holliday isn’t happening, but not sure I buy Mayo or Basallo being completely untouchable. I still think Cowser or Kjerstad is far more likely as the main piece, but I wouldn’t completely rule out a Mayo being made available, especially if it resulted in the rest of the package being reduced some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: You do understand that more pitchers than Cease are available right? Can we all agree that Houston isn't going to trade Framber Valdez to the Orioles for prospects so that they can potentially face him in the ALCS? I wouldn't say Cease is a unicorn, but he is one of the most attractive of a rare opportunity. 8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: Elias likely knows what he wants to pay. He knows what the most he will pay is. That's the whole point, then, isn't it? While some are drooling over Baltimore's prospects, it doesn't have to be their prospects that get a deal done. At this point, I don't even care, I just want it to end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: You do understand that more pitchers than Cease are available right? Elias likely knows what he wants to pay. He knows what the most he will pay is. But he also knows what else he is going to pay elsewhere and what he is hearing from other teams. I said it before..if he comes away from this offseason without a legit starter, Elias has failed. A lot of Os fans disagree with that but I think they aren’t being realistic. But Cease doesn’t have to be that pitcher. You guys seem to think he has to be that guy, that he is the only option. That is just not true. Of course there are. It goes back to his valuation of Cease. Now you throw in the variable of his valuation of Cease compared to other pitchers available. If he has other valued higher he may need to bid more on them, if there is more competition for them. If he values Cease higher but the price for the others is lower, he would look at the difference between the two and decide which offer is best for his team. That's why they get paid and also why they get fired if they make the wrong decision to often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: This is what I’d also like to know. Obviously Holliday isn’t happening, but not sure I buy Mayo or Basallo being completely untouchable. I still think Cowser or Kjerstad is far more likely as the main piece, but I wouldn’t completely rule out a Mayo being made available, especially if it resulted in the rest of the package being reduced some. They aren’t being Moved for Cease. I think they could be available in some deal but I doubt Cease is that guy. He’s not good enough, cheap enough or under control enough to get either of those guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 8 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: Info and entertainment. And also yes. True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: This is what I’d also like to know. Obviously Holliday isn’t happening, but not sure I buy Mayo or Basallo being completely untouchable. I still think Cowser or Kjerstad is far more likely as the main piece, but I wouldn’t completely rule out a Mayo being made available, especially if it resulted in the rest of the package being reduced some. Sports Guy knows for sure cuz of his pillow talk with Elias. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 46 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: There is a very good argument that Basallo’s ceiling is higher than anyone in the organization outside of maybe Gunnar Henderson. It would not be surprising at all if he’s the #1 prospect in baseball this time next year. (Assuming his prospect status is still eligible which is likely) Mayo also has an incredibly high ceiling. The Os put a huge emphasis on what these guys do at the plate in terms of walks, power, EV numbers, etc…at very young ages, these guys have produced at a very high level and they can and do play premium positions. These are not the type of guys Elias will or should trade, at least not for what is available. They aren’t untouchable but the guys you would trade them for just aren’t available. Elias said this offseason, in so many words, that he has multiple untouchable prospects. We know Holliday is one. Hell, we have heard they won’t even trade Cowser or Kjerstad. This is called posturing. And I’m probably Mayo’s biggest fan on this board, but to say he plays a premium position is a pretty big leap. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, WestEddy said: Can we all agree that Houston isn't going to trade Framber Valdez to the Orioles for prospects so that they can potentially face him in the ALCS? I wouldn't say Cease is a unicorn, but he is one of the most attractive of a rare opportunity. That's the whole point, then, isn't it? While some are drooling over Baltimore's prospects, it doesn't have to be their prospects that get a deal done. At this point, I don't even care, I just want it to end. 1) I don’t really buy any of the Valdez stuff and I’m actually not excited about him but I have varying degrees of interest in Luzardo, Bieber, Burnes and other young unproven starters. 2) I agree..as I said, if the top 5 guys are off the table, the other teams can hang with the Os. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, Sports Guy said: They aren’t being Moved for Cease. I think they could be available in some deal but I doubt Cease is that guy. He’s not good enough, cheap enough or under control enough to get either of those guys. We'll see where the market takes it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, Chicago White Sox said: This is called posturing. And I’m probably Mayo’s biggest fan on this board, but to say he plays a premium position is a pretty big leap. Third base is a premium position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: That's the problem - if you throw out his 2022, it dramatically hurts his value, he doesn't look like a Cy Young contender if he's putting up this high walk rate, a high hard-hit rate, and a slowly declining fastball and K-Rate. If teams are paying the prices people here want, they are paying it because they think they can get something closer to 2022 out of him. I don't think they will pay those prices this offseason because I think people will go this deep into his performance and be skeptical about getting 2022 out of him again until he shows that he can. It is also totally believable how he did that well in 2022, he had a dominant performance particularly with his slider. Stands out incredibly in his statistics no one could hit it, and it kept everyone off his fastball. If he can get back to that in the first half of this season, then he would absolutely justify the prices people want for him right now. His fastball velocity dropped a bit in 2023 which is concerning, but the big difference was actually in the slider itself. His slider dropped from 78 mph in 2022 to 74.8 mph in 2023 - that suggests it was a fundamentally different pitch, something about the grip or the mechanics was different and that's what hurt him. Can he get that fixed? If he can, then boom, you'll see a dominant first half from Cease again. Im going to be honest with you Balta, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. After going through all of your stuff on this, it sounds like you are saying "Cease isn't as good as he was in 2022, but he may still be as good as he was in 2022" Which means as an asset, hes a really good SP who has a chance to be a dominant Cy Young contender. He is also young and controllable. Why would you or anyone not think the return on that would be a big one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 If this were the Machado thread and we still had fun with the titles, the current title would be: Cease Rumor Thread: Mets Enter Talks, Hold the Mayo, Enter for Real Estate Advice 2 1 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Can we all agree that Houston isn't going to trade Framber Valdez to the Orioles for prospects so that they can potentially face him in the ALCS? If Jeff Luhnow were still the Astros' GM, I bet they'd be pushing this type of deal right now. Pulling off 2 top prospects who slot into their big league lineup and a little bit more minor league depth makes their run a whole lot more sustainable than it looks today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, ptatc said: We'll see where the market takes it. It doesn’t matter..if the market goes to the point where a top 20ish prospect has to be in the deal, the Os won’t be in the market unless they want to deal Cowser and you consider him a top 20 guy (I don’t but currently MLB does). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: If Jeff Luhnow were still the Astros' GM, I bet they'd be pushing this type of deal right now. Pulling off 2 top prospects who slot into their big league lineup and a little bit more minor league depth makes their run a whole lot more sustainable than it looks today. I don’t like what some of his numbers say…I would deal him too but it depends on what else you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, T R U said: Im going to be honest with you Balta, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. After going through all of your stuff on this, it sounds like you are saying "Cease isn't as good as he was in 2022, but he may still be as good as he was in 2022" Which means as an asset, hes a really good SP who has a chance to be a dominant Cy Young contender. He is also young and controllable. Why would you or anyone not think the return on that would be a big one? If I were an opposing GM, I would judge that emptying the system for him right now, after his 2023, is too high of a risk. I don't know that my pitching coaches could get him back to his 2022 form. If I'm the Orioles and I give you 2 top flight prospects, and Cease gives me an xERA around 4, I've done serious damage to my contention window, I've paid a top of a rotation price for a mid-rotation guy who eats innings. However, it is entirely possible that Cease's problems last year can be solved. Maybe something physical, maybe something mechanical, not sure - things were clearly different. If I'm the Orioles in particular, I want to see Cease on the mound in April and May. If he comes out like his 2022 form, with that super effective slider, then I'll pay an even higher price then. This is possible, but very difficult to figure out what the odds of it are. Could be already fixed, he had a couple good starts in September. Could be that 2022 was a true unicorn career season and he can't get back to that. I don't know. If I were Elias, with the budget constraints it sounds like he has, I wouldn't pay up for Cease right now. I would want to see him on the mound this year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: It doesn’t matter..if the market goes to the point where a top 20ish prospect has to be in the deal, the Os won’t be in the market unless they want to deal Cowser and you consider him a top 20 guy (I don’t but currently MLB does). That's their choice. It's good to know that you are that closely tied to the team and their inner circle. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Thought this may interest you guys: https://x.com/upper_beck/status/1743281324796829801?s=46&t=G3On-_LleGmZce-r3ClVZA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.