Balta1701 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Huh? Stassi didn’t play last season. And Grandal caught 92 games (started 79) so I disagree. Zero chance Maldonado is a worse defender than Grandal. In 2023 Maldonado was a worse defender than Grandal. Advanced stats and eye test. Maldonado actually threw out fewer baserunners than Grandal, Maldonado led the league in passed balls, almost 2x as many errors for Maldonado. Maybe this doesn't carry over, but that's literally coasting on his reputation. The definition of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: In 2023 Maldonado was a worse defender than Grandal. Advanced stats and eye test. Maldonado actually threw out fewer baserunners than Grandal, Maldonado led the league in passed balls. Maybe this doesn't carry over, but that's literally coasting on his reputation. The definition of it. How much did you actually see Maldonado catch last season and if he was as terrible as you say why was he catching for them in the playoffs??? Surely, the Astros are smarter than that… Fangraphs inflated Cease’s value in 2023 but it didn’t inflate Grandal’s defensive value over his entire career? Not sure how anyone that watched Grandal catch for the white sox over the past four seasons could argue he’s anything but a terrible defensive catcher, especially the last couple seasons. Even before the Sox signed him I said his defense was way overrated but everyone would always reference fangraphs and his great “framing.” That’s great and all but the guy can’t block, he can’t throw, and he made some huge mental mistakes. I won’t even get into the pitch calling. He was terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I just looked it up. Maldonado caught 87 out of 99 innings played last postseason for the Astros. If he was so terrible defensively, why did he catch basically every inning pitched except when they subbed him late in games for a pinch hitter?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I just looked it up. Maldonado caught 87 out of 99 innings played last postseason for the Astros. If he was so terrible defensively, why did he catch basically every inning pitched except when they subbed him late in games for a pinch hitter?? Because Dusty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: How much did you actually see Maldonado catch last season and if he was as terrible as you say why was he catching for them in the playoffs??? Surely, the Astros are smarter than that… Fangraphs inflated Cease’s value in 2023 but it didn’t inflate Grandal’s defensive value over his entire career? Not sure how anyone that watched Grandal catch for the white sox over the past four seasons could argue he’s anything but a terrible defensive catcher, especially the last couple seasons. Even before the Sox signed him I said his defense was way overrated but everyone would always reference fangraphs and his great “framing.” That’s great and all but the guy can’t block, he can’t throw, and he made some huge mental mistakes. I won’t even get into the pitch calling. He was terrible. No, Dusty Baker was flat out dumb about this. He had a better catcher but played favorites. Maldonado should have been a backup by the end of the year, they had a vastly better young catcher, but Dusty had to play favorites. It's the kind of stuff that veteran managers do that clearly hurts their team, it avoids building confidence or experience in young guys and tells them they're not good enough, meanwhile it loses games on the field when a guy is simply awful. And yes, I live in the Houston area, how many Astros games did you watch? Maldonado last year couldn't block, couldn't throw, and was as bad or worse than Grandal in everything you note. He was tolerable a few years ago, but last year was awful. Last year he was worse than Grandal on defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I’ve said it for a long time but the one position I think fangraphs is terrible at assessing defensive value is catching. Grandal was a “premier” defender before the Sox signed him and yet the Dodgers would bench him in the playoffs. Yanier Diaz rated as a “better” defensive catcher than Maldonado last season and yet the Astros started Maldonado every playoff game even though Diaz is the far superior hitter. Maybe the Dodgers and Astros are dumb and fangraphs knows better? Or maybe fangraphs has no clue when it comes to rating catchers’ defensive value. Which is more likely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: No, Dusty Baker was flat out dumb about this. He had a better catcher but played favorites. Maldonado should have been a backup by the end of the year, they had a vastly better young catcher, but Dusty had to play favorites. It's the kind of stuff that veteran managers do that clearly hurts their team, it avoids building confidence or experience in young guys and tells them they're not good enough, meanwhile it loses games on the field when a guy is simply awful. And yes, I live in the Houston area, how many Astros games did you watch? Maldonado last year couldn't block, couldn't throw, and was as bad or worse than Grandal in everything you note. He was tolerable a few years ago, but last year was awful. Last year he was worse than Grandal on defense. Or maybe a hall of fame manager trusted Maldonado more than Diaz on the biggest stage? But you probably know more than Dusty and his coaching staff, who am I kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Or maybe a hall of fame manager trusted Maldonado more than Diaz on the biggest stage? But you probably know more than Dusty and his coaching staff, who am I kidding. I hate that this is the quality of post we're going to get for a full year after a game where Maldonado has 1 hit, 3 strikeouts, 0/2 throwing runners out, a passed ball, and the starting pitcher gives up 7 runs. Got it the whole year for the Astros, the starter has a good game and it's Maldonado's credit, he has a bad game and Maldonado makes mistakes and its on the pitcher for not pitching over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I hate that this is the quality of post we're going to get for a full year after a game where Maldonado has 1 hit, 3 strikeouts, 0/2 throwing runners out, a passed ball, and the starting pitcher gives up 7 runs. Got it the whole year for the Astros, the starter has a good game and it's Maldonado's credit, he has a bad game and Maldonado makes mistakes and its on the pitcher for not pitching over it. Again, anything is an upgrade over Grandal despite Grandal’s “terrific” framing. Do you think Seby was a better defender than Stassi too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I hate that this is the quality of post we're going to get for a full year after a game where Maldonado has 1 hit, 3 strikeouts, 0/2 throwing runners out, a passed ball, and the starting pitcher gives up 7 runs. Got it the whole year for the Astros, the starter has a good game and it's Maldonado's credit, he has a bad game and Maldonado makes mistakes and its on the pitcher for not pitching over it. Grandal threw out 15% of baserunners last year. Maldonado threw out 14%. I think some are expecting a lot more than they will be getting. 37 year old catchers generally don't get better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Grandal threw out 15% of baserunners last year. Maldonado threw out 14%. I think some are expecting a lot more than they will be getting. 37 year old catchers generally don't get better. I said the combo of Maldonado/Stassi should be average defensively and should also be a defensive upgrade from what the Sox put out there last season at catcher. I’m not expecting 30 year old Maldonado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Again, anything is an upgrade over Grandal despite Grandal’s “terrific” framing. Do you think Seby was a better defender than Stassi too? I don't know about Seby but I do know that Stassi didn't play last year so I don't know what to count on him as. I do know that Martin Maldonado was the worst defensive catcher in baseball, and I've already heard Dusty spend an entire year making excuses for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 33 minutes ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said: MLB.com intern must be reading my tweets. ? I will forever laugh at the name: Dick Fitts 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zisk Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 hours ago, Balta1701 said: FWIW, last year Benintendi was quite bad in the OF. This was unusual for him, over his career he's been average, but he was poor in the OF at best. Maldonado, last year, was defensively ugh. According to BP he was literally the worst catcher in baseball without counting his offense. Calling him an average defender because he was one a couple years ago and not evaluating him now is probably why Getz signed him, don't do that, it's just wrong. I don't agree. He was about average over the course of the entire season. A bit of a poor start, but solid and steady the rest of the way. Just because you keep saying something, doesn't make it true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: I don't know about Seby but I do know that Stassi didn't play last year so I don't know what to count on him as. I do know that Martin Maldonado was the worst defensive catcher in baseball, and I've already heard Dusty spend an entire year making excuses for him. Where do you think the Sox will rate as a team defensively in 2024? I say they’ll be in the # 10-15 range in MLB depending on what they do with RF and injuries. They were dead last in 2023 by pretty much any measure. You don’t think that’ll help Cease across the board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Where do you think the Sox will rate as a team defensively in 2024? I say they’ll be in the # 10-15 range in MLB depending on what they do with RF and injuries. They were dead last in 2023 by pretty much any measure. You don’t think that’ll help Cease across the board? I have no idea. Most of the guys they brought in are so bad offensively that they will be difficult to keep playing. Many of the guys they brought in have trouble staying healthy or are particularly old so you wouldn't be surprised if they kept getting worse. People told me last year that they had definitely upgraded on their 2022 defense because of Benintendi replacing Vaughn, Robert playing a full season, getting Eloy out of the OF, and they were actually worse! Colas was supposed to be their backup CF, people told me he'd played CF in the minors, and he was really quite bad in RF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, zisk said: I don't agree. He was about average over the course of the entire season. A bit of a poor start, but solid and steady the rest of the way. Just because you keep saying something, doesn't make it true. He only goes by fangraphs unless it hurts his narrative like it does with Cease then fangraphs doesn’t count. I don’t think Benintendi is a great defender but I think he’s average. There are a lot of really poor defensive LFers in mlb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: I have no idea. Most of the guys they brought in are so bad offensively that they will be difficult to keep playing. Many of the guys they brought in have trouble staying healthy or are particularly old so you wouldn't be surprised if they kept getting worse. People told me last year that they had definitely upgraded on their 2022 defense because of Benintendi replacing Vaughn, Robert playing a full season, getting Eloy out of the OF, and they were actually worse! Just take a guess. I’m sure you have an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Just take a guess. I’m sure you have an opinion. Fine, statistically it's hard for them to be worse since they were basically worst in baseball last year, but I'm guessing still well below average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Just now, Harold's Leg Lift said: Mmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: Fine, statistically it's hard for them to be worse since they were basically worst in baseball last year, but I'm guessing still well below average. Ok so like #25 in mlb. I think they’ll be better than that. Either way, it helps Cease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: Sweet. Gilbert + Jett + Vasil + Houck and we have a deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Sweet. Gilbert + Jett + Vasil + Houck and we have a deal! First 3 in a deal sounds good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I did not know Jett Williams is only 5’6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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