WhiteSox2023 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Cease was a 21 year old that hadn’t pitched above A ball yet when they traded for him. He was considered very risky but also had a high ceiling. These are exactly the type of players the Sox should be targeting in this trade. Sure, and maybe Getz is targeting guys like this as third or fourth pieces. But I guess it doesn’t matter what we think. Maybe Getz thinks the team can be competitive in faster than 3-4 years, which is why he may target the more finished 24 year old prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 And to be frank, the Sox have a much better track record of developing young pitchers than they do young position players. Like it’s not even close. Still don’t understand why so many are opposed to a pitching heavy return. If you’re concerned about development then you should be wanting an Adam Eaton type return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Many Sox fans wanted those two guys gone two years ago and it has nothing to do with the extensions. Look, Cease was the “riskiest” and had the longest projection of the top prospects the Sox acquired in their 2017/2018 trades - Giolito, López, Jimenez, Moncada, Kopech being the other “premium” prospects. And he turned out to be the best of the bunch. Why would guys like Jones and Hampton be any riskier than Westburg and Kjerstad? Recent history proves otherwise. What recent history proves otherwise? The reason those 2 are riskier than Westburg and Kjerstad is because you have already seen Westburg and Kjerstad produce at a high level in the upper minors and Westburg showed pretty well in his first stint in the majors. Its not even close which pairing is riskier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: And to be frank, the Sox have a much better track record of developing young pitchers than they do young position players. Like it’s not even close. Still don’t understand why so many are opposed to a pitching heavy return. If you’re concerned about development then you should be wanting an Adam Eaton type return. Wouldn’t this also be an argument for acquiring 24 year old positional prospects from other teams that are ready or near-ready for the majors, since the Sox farm system can’t develop hitters? Ultimately, the Sox will need both pitching and hitting to be competitive again. Edited January 19 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Wouldn’t this also be an argument for acquiring 24 year old positional prospects from other teams that are ready or near-ready for the majors, since the Sox farm system can’t develop hitters? Ultimately, the Sox will need both pitching and hitting to be competitive again. Go back and look at what Moncada and Jimenez did in the minors and compare it to Westburg and Kjerstad. Similar numbers but eloy and Yoan did it at an even younger age. Westburg and Kjerstad haven’t proven anything in mlb. The only way I’d feel good about the Sox not screwing up a position player is if they acquired somebody mlb proven in their mid/late 20s (like Harper, Machado when they were free agents). Even then they’d probably screw them up lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Go back and look at what Moncada and Jimenez did in the minors and compare it to Westburg and Kjerstad. Similar numbers but eloy and Yoan did it at an even younger age. Westburg and Kjerstad haven’t proven anything in mlb. The only way I’d feel good about the Sox not screwing up a position player is if they acquired somebody mlb proven in their mid/late 20s (like Harper, Machado when they were free agents). Even then they’d probably screw them up lol It would be nice if they could do another multi-year tear down but this is Jerry Reinsdorf. This is going to be more of a rushed retool, hoping to be competitive 2025. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Go back and look at what Moncada and Jimenez did in the minors and compare it to Westburg and Kjerstad. Similar numbers but eloy and Yoan did it at an even younger age. Westburg and Kjerstad haven’t proven anything in mlb. The only way I’d feel good about the Sox not screwing up a position player is if they acquired somebody mlb proven in their mid/late 20s (like Harper, Machado when they were free agents). Even then they’d probably screw them up lol Did the Sox screw up Moncada and Eloy? The only way I think they impacted them was by giving them contract extensions immediately, which may have made them not so worried about performing? Otherwise, neither guy could ever stay healthy from the very beginning. They have to be two of the most injury-prone players in baseball. This is what brought upon most of their downfall. You have to actually play to put up good numbers. When he actually does play, Moncada is supposedly always playing with some sort of malady (bad back, shin splints, etc.) and Eloy could probably manage to tear his ACL while walking his dog. Edited January 19 by WhiteSox2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 5 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Did the Sox screw up Moncada and Eloy? The only way I think they impacted them was by giving them contract extensions immediately, which may have made them not so worried about performing? Otherwise, neither guy could ever stay healthy from the very beginning. They have to be two of the most injury-prone players in baseball. This is what brought upon most of their downfall. You have to actually play to put up good numbers. Meh. Eloy had his healthiest season of his career last year and also his worst year so I’m not sure about that. Moncada had one great season and has otherwise been a major disappointment considering his pedigree. Giving early/huge extensions hasn’t affected other top prospects around that same time - Acuna, Tatis, Albies, Robert, etc. Edited January 19 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 6 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: It would be nice if they could do another multi-year tear down but this is Jerry Reinsdorf. This is going to be more of a rushed retool, hoping to be competitive 2025. I’m afraid you’re right and it really sucks because they’ll likely make matters worse and prolong the crappiness of the mlb product. I hope Getz proves us wrong though. This trade will be the real tell imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Meh. Eloy had his healthiest season of his career last year and also his worst year so I’m not sure about that. Moncada had one great season and has otherwise been a major disappointment considering his pedigree. Giving early/huge extensions hasn’t affected other top prospects around that same time - Acuna, Tatis, Albies, Robert, etc. Eloy’s worst year was 2021, but the fact that he has only played in 120 games in 2 out of the 5 total seasons of his career is the biggest issue. I have no idea why Moncada is such a disappointment. He has shown he can play at a high level. Nagging injuries, too much partying, just doesn’t care? No idea what his deal is. Edited January 19 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I’m afraid you’re right and it really sucks because they’ll likely make matters worse and prolong the crappiness of the mlb product. I hope Getz proves us wrong though. This trade will be the real tell imo. Dealing with “prolonged crappiness” is a trait of every true White Sox fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, Sports Guy said: Also, do you trust your player development to develop far away from the majors players? no. But I also don't expect them to develop close to the majors guys either loll. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 minute ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Dealing with “prolonged crappiness” is a trait of every true White Sox fan. Actually, committing to a rebuild after the 2016 season and making the playoffs in 2020 was not prolonged. For a full teardown that was a relatively quick turnaround. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Actually, committing to a rebuild after the 2016 season and making the playoffs in 2020 was not prolonged. For a full teardown that was a relatively quick turnaround. I’ve been a Sox fan since the late 80’s. To me, 6 playoff appearances and 1 World Series in 35 years is more prolonged years of losing than years of success. Regardless, we all know what happened with Hahn’s rebuild. Our owner refused to take the next step and sign the big time free agents needed and then decided to bring back the corpse of his best friend and favorite all time manager. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 5 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: I’ve been a Sox fan since the late 80’s. To me, 6 playoff appearances and 1 World Series in 35 years is more prolonged years of losing than years of success. Regardless, we all know what happened with Hahn’s rebuild. Our owner refused to take the next step and sign the big time free agents needed and then decided to bring back the corpse of his best friend and favorite all time manager. I’ve been a fan just as long and I’m well aware of their history. All I was saying is that a “quick” retool is far likelier to delay the next playoff appearance than a full rebuild like they did after the 2016 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I’ve been a fan just as long and I’m well aware of their history. All I was saying is that a “quick” retool is far likelier to delay the next playoff appearance than a full rebuild like they did after the 2016 season. If we had ownership that knew when to spend money, like the Cubs prior to 2016, I would prefer the long rebuild. But obviously we don’t have that kind of ownership and the draft changes have also hurt that strategy anyways. Either way, quick retool is the way JR and Getz want to do it. We can only watch the likely failure. Edited January 19 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 54 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Go back and look at what Moncada and Jimenez did in the minors and compare it to Westburg and Kjerstad. Similar numbers but eloy and Yoan did it at an even younger age. Westburg and Kjerstad haven’t proven anything in mlb. The only way I’d feel good about the Sox not screwing up a position player is if they acquired somebody mlb proven in their mid/late 20s (like Harper, Machado when they were free agents). Even then they’d probably screw them up lol Great point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Here's a real ugly thought. Sox want Westburg. Orioles say No. Sox offer to throw in Ramos. Orioles say Yes. Westburg struggles with Sox, Ramos stars with Orioles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Projected trade for Santander presents issues for teams who would have to give back major league-ready pitching…and posits the Orioles will use the first half of the season to basically assess where all their young players are going to fit. Of course, that’s going to end up lowering the value of guys like Cowser Westburg Kjerstad Ortiz Norby and Mayo if they underperform or get pushed aside by other advancing players. Moreover, dealing a veteran leader like Santander could also blow up in their faces. Of course Santander makes no sense to the White Sox unless they were going to sign and extend him…which Baltimore isn’t willing to do, or can’t afford to do. Baltimore and numerous other teams are basically stuck with Cease and all his attendant pluses and minuses as one of a dwindling handful of options.. However, lots of recent rumors flying about Cabrera and Jazz Chisholm both being on the market. Baltimore should probably go in that direction. Even though Jazz has just three years remaining and will be getting increasingly expensive. Having Chisholm and Mullins paired together would be exciting and the prospect cost would practically scare SportsGuy to death. https://www.eastvillagetimes.com/trade-with-orioles-for-santander-makes-sense-for-padres/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 7 minutes ago, oldsox said: Here's a real ugly thought. Sox want Westburg. Orioles say No. Sox offer to throw in Ramos. Orioles say Yes. Westburg struggles with Sox, Ramos stars with Orioles. Ramos looks like he could be a solid major leaguer but star is a pretty unlikely outcome…he’d have to remain at third with at least average defense and increase his power numbers into at least the 25-30 homer range. Wouldn’t count on that happening. And of course remain healthy as well. Always a huge question mark with Sox prospects. Plus he’d eventually have to beat out Henderson Mayo Urias Mateo, etc. Edited January 19 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 9 minutes ago, oldsox said: Here's a real ugly thought. Sox want Westburg. Orioles say No. Sox offer to throw in Ramos. Orioles say Yes. Westburg struggles with Sox, Ramos stars with Orioles. Trading a prospect as part of a package where you're trading your #1-2 level ace would be so next level stupid that Getz would need to actually be fired on the spot. I don't care if it's an org top 5 prospect like Ramos or someone that has cratered off the cliff like Cespedes. Fortunately, despite me loathing basically every non-Fedde signing, I have confidence in Getz to not do that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 17 minutes ago, oldsox said: Here's a real ugly thought. Sox want Westburg. Orioles say No. Sox offer to throw in Ramos. Orioles say Yes. Westburg struggles with Sox, Ramos stars with Orioles. I really doubt the Sox will be including any prospect in any sort of Cease trade. Edited January 19 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: So the Orioles put it out there that Getz’s price is too high? The Orioles or maybe it was Boras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Deep Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: The Orioles or maybe it was Boras. Interesting. Just curious as to why Boras would want to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Just now, 2Deep said: Interesting. Just curious as to why Boras would want to do that? To help the frozen Snell and Montgomery markets…move closer to his target prices. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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