Cease To Padres per Passan

[WhiteSox2023]

16 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You're not disagreeing. You're denying that any of these three pitchers have any business being on a baseball field. Oh, a guy pitched in Korea. That means he will fail miserably. That's childish. I get it. The negativity gets likes. I already see a therapist, I don't need your dime store palm-reading. 

If you need everybody you encounter to prove to you why they like "things", maybe you should be talking to a professional, too. Not everybody watches a baseball team because they need world championships to buck up their own self-image. 

Take your own advice. Why do you need to chase down and tackle people who want to be positive about this team? Do you think you're saving them from something? Do you think grown adults don't know that when watching a sports team, their own life's success isn't dictated by a bunch of dudes in tights throwing a ball around?

 

I never said this about the rotation guys.  I just don’t expect them all to have bounceback seasons like you do.  However, I probably did say that guys like DeJong, Maldonado, Pillar, Moustakas, and Sheets don’t deserve to be in the majors…  because they don’t.  ?

[TaylorStSox]

The one thing that I really hate about this trade is that Soroka, Flexen and Fedde are RH's that don't throw hard and feature plus changes. That's not how you set up a pitcher like Thorpe up for success. You'd like a LH or a hard throwing FB/SL/CU starter to separate their profiles. 

[hi8is]

4 hours ago, SoxFest23 said:

Not happened.

They didn’t… they got a mid top 100 and two guys who are borderline bottom 100… and more.

Pretty equal value.

This trade isn’t a slam dunk and it isn’t a dud. If even Zavala turns it on into some of his tools as he ages though, it could be.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

The one thing that I really hate about this trade is that Soroka, Flexen and Fedde are RH's that don't throw hard and feature plus changes. That's not how you set up a pitcher like Thorpe up for success. You'd like a LH or a hard throwing FB/SL/CU starter to separate their profiles. 

Has this ever been proven statistically?  I have heard this same argument on why you don’t want to stack a bunch of lefty starters in a row, etc. but is it backed by data?  Some people disagree and say that each new ball game is a completely clean slate.

[TaylorStSox]

2 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Has this ever been proven statistically?  I have heard this same argument on why you don’t want to stack a bunch of lefty starters in a row, etc. but is it backed by data?  Some people disagree and say that each new ball game is a completely clean slate.

I'm not sure if there's evidence that it matters, but all of them have 1/8th slots and don't throw hard. Thorpe's change up is the best pitch all of them feature. Soroka throws the hardest and pitches more diagonally. I just think if you want to set up Thorpe for the very most success, you want to sandwich him between pitchers who look nothing like him. It makes his ch look even more devastating. After watching several innings of him pitch, that ch is really, really fuckin special. 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 minute ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Has this ever been proven statistically?  I have heard this same argument on why you don’t want to stack a bunch of lefty starters in a row, etc. but is it backed by data?  Some people disagree and say that each new ball game is a completely clean slate.

Fedde is the only one signed here in 2025,. The rotation below would provide the discussed contrast in styles and handedness within each series.

1. Crochet (L)
2. Fedde (R)
3. Eder (L)
4. Nastrini (R)
5. Thorpe (R)

[SoxAce]

22 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

The one thing that I really hate about this trade is that Soroka, Flexen and Fedde are RH's that don't throw hard and feature plus changes. That's not how you set up a pitcher like Thorpe up for success. You'd like a LH or a hard throwing FB/SL/CU starter to separate their profiles. 

Or it can help Thorpe that he has veteran help at ST who can maybe teach him a different pitch grip on a pitch and give him advice (i.e. Shields with Giolito).

[WestEddy]

34 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I never said this about the rotation guys.  I just don’t expect them all to have bounceback seasons like you do.  However, I probably did say that guys like DeJong, Maldonado, Pillar, Moustakas, and Sheets don’t deserve to be in the majors…  because they don’t.  ?

Oh, okay, so we're walking that back. Good. Getz is throwing out 3 bounce back guys. Maybe one will take. Soroka threw 120 innings last year. Maybe he throws 150 better innings this year. I don't expect Fedde to be an ace. He already has issues with lefties, so he might just eat high-cost innings. There's Kuhl and Woodford before they cycle through the AAAA guys (Burke, Stiever) then maybe Nastrini hits the bigs. 

You know all of this. We don't need to announce that everyone will be historically bad for cred. Nobody cares. Do I need to repost the Melania pic? If you're hung up on a line of JR's press conference, then I'm sad for you. I don't listen to that sh*t. I just watch what they do. 

[hi8is]

14 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Fedde is the only one signed here in 2025,. The rotation below would provide the discussed contrast in styles and handedness within each series.

1. Crochet (L)
2. Fedde (R)
3. Eder (L)
4. Nastrini (R)
5. Thorpe (R)

That certainly is the “if everything goes right” scenario… and as we well know ________________.

[TaylorStSox]

4 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Or it can help Thorpe that he has veteran help at ST who can maybe teach him a different pitch grip on a pitch and give him advice (i.e. Shields with Giolito).

From what I can tell, he has a few different grips on the change. It drops against RH hitters, almost like a 12/6. Against LH hitters it tails when he throws away and drops when he throws it in. His slider also looks serviceable against RH hitters. It has good movement, but he doesn't throw it with authority. He throws his 4 seamer with purpose. His ch is so good that it looks like he feels like he's throwing 98. He's super interesting to watch - guy with change up that's so special he can throw 92 and lead all of the minors in k's and k/9. 

[baseball_gal_aly]

To answer another poster, I absolutely will be the female Ron on Thorpe. 

If he's actually good I will post threads bashing him as schtick because I just loathe soft tossing RHP on principle

I think Hendricks sucks even though he's solid. 

[TaylorStSox]

The question with Thorpe is whether major league hitters will just sit fb and completely ignore his change. I'm not sure if he's deceptive enough to fool truly elite hitters. He makes AA hitters look terrible. 

[baseball_gal_aly]

1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said:

The question with Thorpe is whether major league hitters will just sit fb and completely ignore his change. I'm not sure if he's deceptive enough to fool truly elite hitters. He makes AA hitters look terrible. 

Well if he's as deceptive with it as peak Giolito was that will be next to impossible. 

and hopefully they can work with him to gain a bit of velo. 

I was relieved to hear that the Padres gun was broken. 

[TaylorStSox]

I'll post this again. This change is so good, it would make Keith Foulke blush.

 

 

[TaylorStSox]

2 minutes ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

Well if he's as deceptive with it as peak Giolito was that will be next to impossible. 

and hopefully they can work with him to gain a bit of velo. 

I was relieved to hear that the Padres gun was broken. 

When Gio was at his best, his slider was the pitch that really made the difference. I think Thorpe's change is better than any pitch Gio ever threw. Is it good enough for him to be a 2 pitch starter? Maddux was able to throw 4 variations of his change along with a serviceable curve and a 4 seamer with movement.  The ch was the pitch that made him truly elite though. 

[WhiteSox2023]

12 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Oh, okay, so we're walking that back. Good. Getz is throwing out 3 bounce back guys. Maybe one will take. Soroka threw 120 innings last year. Maybe he throws 150 better innings this year. I don't expect Fedde to be an ace. He already has issues with lefties, so he might just eat high-cost innings. There's Kuhl and Woodford before they cycle through the AAAA guys (Burke, Stiever) then maybe Nastrini hits the bigs. 

You know all of this. We don't need to announce that everyone will be historically bad for cred. Nobody cares. Do I need to repost the Melania pic? If you're hung up on a line of JR's press conference, then I'm sad for you. I don't listen to that sh*t. I just watch what they do. 

I’ll be more interested when the retreads get replaced by the true talent.

Also, I prefer Ivanka.

[TaylorStSox]

The other thing to watch with Thorpe is that his 92-94 looks super easy. It's really, really deceptive. 

[WestEddy]

Just now, WhiteSox2023 said:

I’ll be more interested when the retreads get replaced by the true talent.

Also, I prefer Ivanka.

Okay, I wouldn't kick Ivanka out of bed for invading the Sudetenland. 

Yeah, that's the whole point. I think Soroka has "main guy" potential. Fedde and Flexen could certainly eat innings. I think we have more depth than we have before. Kuhl and Woodford can be the Touki and Ureña of '24 until Nastrini and others graduate. 

[Balta1701]

20 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Or it can help Thorpe that he has veteran help at ST who can maybe teach him a different pitch grip on a pitch and give him advice (i.e. Shields with Giolito).

Lucas Giolito did not benefit from anything prior to the 2019 season, where a non-MLB pitching instructor named Ethan Katz instructed him in the benefits of using Spidertack to enhance the grip and spin of his pitches. This commentary on Giolito's success from 2019 through June 14 2021 needs to seriously stop, it's ignoring what we know happened. Thorpe is not going to follow Giolito's lead and have success using sticky stuff. That magical changeup disappeared in one day and never returned and that day was June 15, 2021, the day the sticky stuff ban started. Giolito tried to work around its loss with inconsistent success, with more focus on his fastball and slider than on striking people out using the change. 

You are making me remind people that Josh Donaldson was right, Giolito's pitches were more hittable when less sticky.

[baseball_gal_aly]

7 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

When Gio was at his best, his slider was the pitch that really made the difference. I think Thorpe's change is better than any pitch Gio ever threw. Is it good enough for him to be a 2 pitch starter? Maddux was able to throw 4 variations of his change along with a serviceable curve and a 4 seamer with movement.  The ch was the pitch that made him truly elite though. 

Keith Law said that Giolito had a 70 change in 2019-20

[Balta1701]

Just now, baseball_gal_aly said:

Keith Law said that Giolito had a 70 change in 2019-20

 

Please stop. 

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

The other thing to watch with Thorpe is that his 92-94 looks super easy. It's really, really deceptive. 

Also, if Kopech had anywhere close to Thorpe’s command, he would be our best pitcher instead of headed to the bullpen.

[TaylorStSox]

5 minutes ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

Keith Law said that Giolito had a 70 change in 2019-20

I think it had the movement of a 70 change, but he struggled so much with his arm slot and extension that it went from a plus change to a mediocre curve. I don't think his velocity was the thing that broke him, it was his delivery. He was always in his own head and always struggled with repeating.

[TaylorStSox]

7 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Also, if Kopech had anywhere close to Thorpe’s command, he would be our best pitcher instead of headed to the bullpen.

Kopech has one of those Nolan Ryan type of arms, where everything he throws is nasty as hell and hard as hell. Nobody will ever figure out what in the hell is wrong with him. 

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

I think it had the movement of a 70 change, but he struggled so much with his arm slot and extension that it went from a plus change to a mediocre curve. I don't think his velocity was the thing that broke him, it was his delivery. He was always in his own head and always struggled with repeating.

Naw, he could just make that change work repeatably when his hand was coated with spidertack. His spin rates and career progression are super clear. He started working with Katz, Katz's big thing was sticky stuff. Giolito immediately developed a super aggressive changeup that destroyed people for 2 years, including a no-hitter. He lost that Change on June 15, 2021. He tried to come up with other arm slots, different pitch rotations to overcome it, it was acceptable, but not nearly as dominant as he was with the sticky stuff change. Ethan Katz parlayed this into a major league pitching coach job and got either 60% or 80% of his starting pitchers using the same sticky stuff, and all of that changed when MLB instituted hand checks, leading to 1-week spin rate drops for 3 of his starters all at the same time and a 4th who threw mostly a 2-seamer and whose career suddenly self destructed.