Pony up!

[Dam8610]

On 11/13/2023 at 6:11 PM, SoxFest23 said:

How much money do you normally spend on White Sox baseball in a typical year?

How much you plan on spending in 2024?

Jerry wants your hard earned dollars, pony up!

I will not buy any more White Sox merch or pay to go to a game until Jerry Reinsdorf dies or sells the team.

[nrockway]

12 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Rangers and Padres also have these "all in one" destination site plans in place...Arlington already had at last park.  Braves come to mind here as well.

KC currently targeting such a plan with three different downtown spots under consideration.

This is my point. Every team will do this from here on out because real estate development is more profitable than owning a baseball team is. I'd like to do more research into this, but I'm sure the Las Vegas A's are planning the same thing. Off hand, the area surrounding their planned suburban site in Paradise, NV looks primed for redevelopment. I wish city and state governments were less lazy and developed the sites themselves 

If the Sox stay in town, I suspect they will do the same thing to 35th/Shields, Soldier Field, the US Steel South Works site, around the United Center. That will be the reason the Sox stay in town and not move to any other city, that they will be given carte blanche to develop an area because, logically, this is the only way cities can sustain themselves nowadays; property taxes from businesses that serve exclusively yuppies. I personally think it's a poor example of urban planning and I've met some of the bozos who make decisions at DPD and they're definitely on the side of the billionaires and not the constituents that the mayor vests power in them to serve. Not related to this topic, but maybe the city could incentivize high-skilled manufacturing jobs like Germany and Japan do. It's a different mode of tax revenue that actually creates something. I think I could also make the point that this sort of development correlates with increased crime as well. New York was able to effectively neoliberalize the 5 boroughs and push criminal activity to the fringes, to Yonkers, to Newark. Thanks, Rudy.

I think there could be a great balance struck between the city and the Sox to develop a site beyond "incentivizing" private interests to do whatever they want just so they can produce tax revenue. I really think a city like Chicago could strongarm these losers to stay in an incredible city, we'll see what the environment looks like in 20 years or whenever Jerry dies and we "need" a new ballpark. I actually am optimistic that the development environment will change by then, insofar as politicians and un-elected administrators might get over the Ronald Reagan brainwashing.

 

  

10 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The Wrigley Field area was gentrified in the 1980s, when college graduates began moving here for jobs in financial, insurance and other industries replacing our manufacturing base. This and the garbage AirBNB type sites today were/are far more impactful than anything over the past few years, though like you I don’t like the process of how they acquired the buildings directly across on Sheffield and Waveland, including blocking their views into the park a decade ago.

In terms of the Sox, there was a contemporary fight to keep the neighborhood to the south in tact. Local businesses were also fighting for survival, including McCuddy’s, which the Governor pledged would be relocated across the street where that garbage corporate bar Jerry controls is now located.

https://chicagoreader.com/news-politics/the-mccuddys-mess-big-jim-opens-big-mouth-tavern-owners-get-big-shaft/

 

 

I wrote a similarly long response to your post but accidentally closed out of the tab and PHPBBB restored the post I was writing to caulfield and not to you. I want to go to bed so will rewrite it tomorrow; but the gist was more of my perspective on the Ricketts and Lakeview (and how that family didn't kick off the gentrification project but probably should not be allowed to own a historic landmark and develop the neighborhood).  and Tom Tunney and zoning laws and how I should probably do a bit more specific research on Bridgeport or "Bronzeville"'s  relation to the park. bummer. 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, nrockway said:

This is my point. Every team will do this from here on out because real estate development is more profitable than owning a baseball team is. I'd like to do more research into this, but I'm sure the Las Vegas A's are planning the same thing. Off hand, the area surrounding their planned suburban site in Paradise, NV looks primed for redevelopment. I wish city and state governments were less lazy and developed the sites themselves 

I wrote a similarly long response to your post but accidentally closed out of the tab and PHPBBB restored the post I was writing to caulfield and not to you. I want to go to bed so will rewrite it tomorrow; but the gist was more of my perspective on the Ricketts and Lakeview (and how that family didn't kick off the gentrification project but probably should not be allowed to own a historic landmark and develop the neighborhood).  and Tom Tunney and zoning laws and how I should probably do a bit more specific research on Bridgeport or "Bronzeville"'s  relation to the park. bummer. 

I agree with you on some of your points, and likely dislike the "Yuppies" you bring up as much as Bill  "Die Yuppie Scum" Gleason from the Daily Southtown Economist on the Sports Writers on TV back in the day.

In terms of the White Sox, their fan base are by and large historically working / middle class fans with families from the South, West and Near West Sides. Cubs gathered a lot of transplants, a good portion being college grads moving here after perhaps watching Harry and the Cubs for decades. Harry left the Sox because he wanted to reach all Chicagoans including those who couldn't afford Sportsvision/PPV/On-TV. We didn't even get a color TV until I believe a hand me down one in the late 70s or early 80s.

In terms of Vegas, Paradise isn't a suburb, but more similar to unincorporated Cook County. Casinos built the Strip (south of Sahara) to avoid taxes paid to downtown Vegas, but the city and Clark County provide all government services (schools, police, water, etc.). Their original parcel was on the site of the trucker prostitute hotel/casino, Station Casinos owned Wild Wild West, which offered enough land to engage in these real estate developments you not in your post. I believe Days Inn managed the hotels before they ended up shutting down the site.

However, the Stadium bill was not going to pass with the Culinary Union blocking it (the WWW site is owned by non-union Stations Casinos, whereas unions have deals with the Tropicana Hotel and most other Vegas casinos. So the legislature passed the revised bill, and the A's total land purchase shrunk from the WWW 49 acres (with an additional option to purchase more adjacent land) to the current 35 acres on The Strip. 

So there is still room for some development, but not to the extent the A's could have gotten at the Wild Wild West Site, and a small fraction of what they would have gotten with more capital up front at the Howard Terminal Proposal (stadium + 3,000 residential units plus 1.5 million square feet of commercial space + an indoor performance theater, a hotel with 400 rooms and 18 acres of open space.

The A's bitched about the funding for the infrastructure and the portion of affordable housing subsidies for Howard Terminal, but got everything else they wanted, and ended up walking away from the much larger real estate play than what they ended up with in Las Vegas, all for the portion of the $352M of infrastructure the A's.

So bottom line, their real estate footprint beyond the stadium is much smaller in Vegas, their television revenue will be smaller than their previous years, and while they will likely be able to charge a higher ticket cost per seat and get substantial skybox suite support from casinos, they will have trouble drawing over 2M after perhaps the first year or two between the location and small capacity, whereas they would have made a lot more overall revenue and capital appreciation at the Howard Terminal. I believe Fischer thought they would be able to get everything they wanted in Nevada, but after the Raiders experience, they didn't get nearly as much as they thought they would.

I feel bad for Vegas getting Fischer after already being stuck with Mark Davis and his roster of seemingly weekly DUI players. I hope Oakland (or Montreal) gets one or both MLB expansion teams. I'm still not sold on the long term prospects in Nashville between the weather, culture, size of market and other factors, but I believe in the end it will be Nashville and Oakland approved, as Manfred is like Bettman in terms of hating Canada because they don't build stadiums for billionaires with taxpayer funds (well unless they get a hand-me-down Olympic Stadium). I have to laugh at Salt Lake City, Portland and Orlando being listed.

https://www.si.com/mlb/athletics/news/oakland-reportedly-a-top-two-expansion-site-if-as-leave-for-las-vegas

 

[SoxFest23]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:05 PM, tray said:

I usually don't spend money on baseball in November. Relax.

That's why the question was about 2024?‍♂️

[nrockway]

On 11/17/2023 at 4:42 AM, South Side Hit Men said:

I agree with you on some of your points, and likely dislike the "Yuppies" you bring up as much as Bill  "Die Yuppie Scum" Gleason from the Daily Southtown Economist on the Sports Writers on TV back in the day.

In terms of the White Sox, their fan base are by and large historically working / middle class fans with families from the South, West and Near West Sides. Cubs gathered a lot of transplants, a good portion being college grads moving here after perhaps watching Harry and the Cubs for decades. Harry left the Sox because he wanted to reach all Chicagoans including those who couldn't afford Sportsvision/PPV/On-TV. We didn't even get a color TV until I believe a hand me down one in the late 70s or early 80s.

In terms of Vegas, Paradise isn't a suburb, but more similar to unincorporated Cook County. Casinos built the Strip (south of Sahara) to avoid taxes paid to downtown Vegas, but the city and Clark County provide all government services (schools, police, water, etc.). Their original parcel was on the site of the trucker prostitute hotel/casino, Station Casinos owned Wild Wild West, which offered enough land to engage in these real estate developments you not in your post. I believe Days Inn managed the hotels before they ended up shutting down the site.

However, the Stadium bill was not going to pass with the Culinary Union blocking it (the WWW site is owned by non-union Stations Casinos, whereas unions have deals with the Tropicana Hotel and most other Vegas casinos. So the legislature passed the revised bill, and the A's total land purchase shrunk from the WWW 49 acres (with an additional option to purchase more adjacent land) to the current 35 acres on The Strip. 

So there is still room for some development, but not to the extent the A's could have gotten at the Wild Wild West Site, and a small fraction of what they would have gotten with more capital up front at the Howard Terminal Proposal (stadium + 3,000 residential units plus 1.5 million square feet of commercial space + an indoor performance theater, a hotel with 400 rooms and 18 acres of open space.

The A's bitched about the funding for the infrastructure and the portion of affordable housing subsidies for Howard Terminal, but got everything else they wanted, and ended up walking away from the much larger real estate play than what they ended up with in Las Vegas, all for the portion of the $352M of infrastructure the A's.

So bottom line, their real estate footprint beyond the stadium is much smaller in Vegas, their television revenue will be smaller than their previous years, and while they will likely be able to charge a higher ticket cost per seat and get substantial skybox suite support from casinos, they will have trouble drawing over 2M after perhaps the first year or two between the location and small capacity, whereas they would have made a lot more overall revenue and capital appreciation at the Howard Terminal. I believe Fischer thought they would be able to get everything they wanted in Nevada, but after the Raiders experience, they didn't get nearly as much as they thought they would.

I feel bad for Vegas getting Fischer after already being stuck with Mark Davis and his roster of seemingly weekly DUI players. I hope Oakland (or Montreal) gets one or both MLB expansion teams. I'm still not sold on the long term prospects in Nashville between the weather, culture, size of market and other factors, but I believe in the end it will be Nashville and Oakland approved, as Manfred is like Bettman in terms of hating Canada because they don't build stadiums for billionaires with taxpayer funds (well unless they get a hand-me-down Olympic Stadium). I have to laugh at Salt Lake City, Portland and Orlando being listed.

https://www.si.com/mlb/athletics/news/oakland-reportedly-a-top-two-expansion-site-if-as-leave-for-las-vegas

 

Sorry for the delay, I am traveling and sort of forgot about this post. Very much appreciate your knowledge and specific insight into this issue. I lived in Berkeley for a bit and thought the Howard Terminal site was a perfect place for a ballpark and fit perfectly within the comprehensive redevelopment of that area; and despite some of those concessions you mention, I thought Oakland was getting fucked over just "giving away" the land to the A's. I hope they can find a better use for it, but my (biased) opinion is that a ballpark fit perfectly there. I was under the impression that the A's were too cheap to pay for environmental remediation or otherwise deal with California's regulatory environment (which, in some ways, is absurd and unwarranted and only the biggest corporations can comply with it...such as the A's). It doesn't surprise me that a California corporation would want to move its operations to Nevada. 

I assume Fisher is a logical person and stands to make more money from the move than if he stayed in Oakland. The East Bay is a giant market but the team did very little to ingratiate itself to its residents. My dad is from the East Bay and is a Giants fan because he was a teenager when the A's arrived, but his loyalty didn't change and I don't think the team did anything to actually foster a fanbase beyond having "Oakland" in their name. They could have and they still could, why not market the team like "hard hat and lunch pail", it's a similar ethos to Chicago and I think the two cities are very comparable, especially when you compare 'south side/north side' to 'Oakland/San Francisco'. There are two giant demographics in Chicago that live predominantly on the south (and west) side that the team could actually try to appeal to. Winning in the 70s is one thing, but a baseball team is a civic institution that should fill a larger role in the community. There's a lot that a baseball team could do for a city like Oakland to, not only ingratiate itself and develop a fanbase, but actually do something good in the city and region.

I worry about the Sox for a similar reason. Although we have a longer history, the Sox do nothing on the south side and never addressed the demographic shift and so there's a giant market of potential baseball fans if they tried to do something about it. The diamond near my house was built by the Cubs and have their logos all over it. Why didn't the Sox do that? The street has numbers in the name. It seems like the perfect storm to move from Illinois to Tennessee if the city doesn't give them a sweetheart deal to redevelop that entire swathe of land around 35th/Shields or take over Soldier Field and develop Northerly Island or the former US steel site (a great location for a ballpark IMO).

[caulfield12]

Pony up JR…

 

“– The Minnesota Twins, who are without a TV contract, have begun implementing budget cuts, costing prized pro scout Billy Milos his job. Milos, 55, who has been with the Twins for 29 years, is widely considered perhaps the best scout to find unheralded talent, particularly among the independent leagues.

The Twins used nine independent ball players this past season. Milos was the one who recommended the Twins select future Cy Young award winner Johan Santana in the Rule 5 Draft. He also signed All-Star pitcher Pat Neshek, and signed Nick Anderson, Randy Dobnak and Buddy Boshers from the independent leagues.

Teams should be scurrying to find a spot for him in their scouting ranks.”

 

yahoo sports  Nightengale’s Notebook

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Pony up JR…

 

“– The Minnesota Twins, who are without a TV contract, have begun implementing budget cuts, costing prized pro scout Billy Milos his job. Milos, 55, who has been with the Twins for 29 years, is widely considered perhaps the best scout to find unheralded talent, particularly among the independent leagues.

The Twins used nine independent ball players this past season. Milos was the one who recommended the Twins select future Cy Young award winner Johan Santana in the Rule 5 Draft. He also signed All-Star pitcher Pat Neshek, and signed Nick Anderson, Randy Dobnak and Buddy Boshers from the independent leagues.

Teams should be scurrying to find a spot for him in their scouting ranks.”

yahoo sports  Nightengale’s Notebook

Jerry dumped the scouts three years ago, including their own 29 year veteran scout after Jerry lost trillions during his owner led 2020 lockout.

Quote

“There’s nothing cheap at all about Jerry Reinsdorf,” Yoakum told Rosenthal. “He’s losing a lot of money. I was fortunate to be over there 29 years.”

- Dave Yoakum White Sox 1991-2020

Sadly Dave died in May.

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/orlandosentinel/name/dave-yoakum-obituary?id=52267819

Jerry only has money for Brooks Boyer’s enormous ticket selling operation. 

People are done with his cheap ass Bulls operation as well.

https://pippenainteasy.com/2023/11/21/bulls-poor-attendance-numbers-dramatic-changes/

Hope nobody buys another Sox or Bulls ticket until a Reinsdorf is no longer involved.

[caulfield12]

11 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Jerry dumped the scouts three years ago, including their own 29 year veteran scout after Jerry lost trillions during his owner led 2020 lockout.

Sadly Dave died in May.

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/orlandosentinel/name/dave-yoakum-obituary?id=52267819

Jerry only has money for Brooks Boyer’s enormous ticket selling operation. 

People are done with his cheap ass Bulls operation as well.

https://pippenainteasy.com/2023/11/21/bulls-poor-attendance-numbers-dramatic-changes/

Hope nobody buys another Sox or Bulls ticket until a Reinsdorf is no longer involved.

https://twinsdaily.com/news-rumors/minnesota-twins/did-twins-lose-money-2022-revenues-losses/

Looks like the Twins are going after former Sox Frankie Montas...not exactly sure how that replaces Sonny Gray.

[greg775]

13 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Pony up JR…

 

“– The Minnesota Twins, who are without a TV contract, have begun implementing budget cuts, costing prized pro scout Billy Milos his job. Milos, 55, who has been with the Twins for 29 years, is widely considered perhaps the best scout to find unheralded talent, particularly among the independent leagues.

The Twins used nine independent ball players this past season. Milos was the one who recommended the Twins select future Cy Young award winner Johan Santana in the Rule 5 Draft. He also signed All-Star pitcher Pat Neshek, and signed Nick Anderson, Randy Dobnak and Buddy Boshers from the independent leagues.

Teams should be scurrying to find a spot for him in their scouting ranks.”

 

yahoo sports  Nightengale’s Notebook

it's amazing how teams are stuck getting rid of the nickle and dime employees while the only reason they are in this boat is what happened with salary escalation year after year of ballplayers. It never slowed down. Even now they are paid so much money when they are more brittle than ever. It's almost impossible for a pitcher to avoid serious arm surgery and players are on the DL all the time as we know too well. But keep cutting scouts and secretaries rather than ever face the real problem (ballplayer salaries are too late to fix; baseball will go broke before those salaries ever stop going up).

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, greg775 said:

it's amazing how teams are stuck getting rid of the nickle and dime employees while the only reason they are in this boat is what happened with salary escalation year after year of ballplayers. It never slowed down. Even now they are paid so much money when they are more brittle than ever. It's almost impossible for a pitcher to avoid serious arm surgery and players are on the DL all the time as we know too well. But keep cutting scouts and secretaries rather than ever face the real problem (ballplayer salaries are too late to fix; baseball will go broke before those salaries ever stop going up).

Think of how much money they would have saved with Royce Lewis at SS and no Carlos Correa deal?

They'd actually now be able to afford Sonny Gray on a 2 year year deal, and to fix their bullpen, instead of taking the very typical AL Central "scrap heap" approach to filling out a rotation...I guess they did give Maeda a pretty decent deal as well at one point.

 

[caulfield12]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:36 AM, greg775 said:

it's amazing how teams are stuck getting rid of the nickle and dime employees while the only reason they are in this boat is what happened with salary escalation year after year of ballplayers. It never slowed down. Even now they are paid so much money when they are more brittle than ever. It's almost impossible for a pitcher to avoid serious arm surgery and players are on the DL all the time as we know too well. But keep cutting scouts and secretaries rather than ever face the real problem (ballplayer salaries are too late to fix; baseball will go broke before those salaries ever stop going up).

I've said it many times before and I will say it again. The Pohlads need to sell the team to someone who is actually interested in owning a winning baseball team.

Carl Pohlad bought the Twins for $32 million dollars in 1984. According to Forbes, the team is now worth $1.4 billion dollars. The Twins could 'lose' $50 million dollars a year for 20 straight years and the Pohlads would still make a nearly half-billion dollar profit from the sale of the team. Instead, we get penny-pinching and budget cuts to make sure they can finish every season with a healthy profit.

Read More: Minnesota Twins Fire Scout After 29 Years To Save A Few Bucks [OPINION INCOMING] | https://1390granitecitysports.com/minnesota-twins-fire-scout-after-29-years-to-save-a-few-bucks-opinion-incoming/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

[caulfield12]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/oakland-unprecedented-triple-exodus-unique-104617997.html

 

[Highland]

I am not in the mood to "pony up." The political and economic conditions that affect major league creates a situation where winning or losing doesn't matter and public opinion matters less.

Fans are constantly lectured about being loyal and are told to attend games no matter how bad a team is. But, for a long time, the average fan has mattered less and less. Funding comes from different sources and so who cares about the fan who goes to three to five games a year?

I am not looking forward to the 2024 season. The White Sox have done next to nothing since winning the World Series. And they have shown they don't have to. 

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, Highland said:

I am not in the mood to "pony up." The political and economic conditions that affect major league creates a situation where winning or losing doesn't matter and public opinion matters less.

Fans are constantly lectured about being loyal and are told to attend games no matter how bad a team is. But, for a long time, the average fan has mattered less and less. Funding comes from different sources and so who cares about the fan who goes to three to five games a year?

I am not looking forward to the 2024 season. The White Sox have done next to nothing since winning the World Series. And they have shown they don't have to. 

With all the domestic and international revenue streams for a 10 billion dollar a year business it's really hard to say with a straight face you are losing money. You can bet the Sox will be selectively putting out the word to some that they have been and are forced to cut payroll. 

[SoxFest23]

Jerry's gonna go all in for us, he's dusting of the old check book right now ready to spend the big bucks. He's go gonna...... Nevermind, he feel asleep while taking to TLR about the good old days of David Eckstein.

Maybe next year he goes all in. Head to Milwaukee?

 

[SoxFest23]

Jerry wants to bring baseball to Nashville, how much you sending him with? What a prick for this charade!