Ohtani Watch: Dodgers sign - 700M over 10yrs

[Balta1701]

Maybe the real Shohei Ohtani was the friends we made along the way.

[Buehrle>Wood]

It's amazing how many don't realize the Cubs and Sox compete for market share. They absolutely are rivals.

[Lip Man 1]

Just now, Buehrle>Wood said:

It's amazing how many don't realize the Cubs and Sox compete for market share. They absolutely are rivals.

Unfortunately both Eddie Einhorn and Jerry Reinsdorf didn't realize that. 

"We're Chicago's American League team..." - Eddie Einhorn April 1981.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

It's amazing how many don't realize the Cubs and Sox compete for market share. They absolutely are rivals.

I honestly can’t think of anything that would more negatively impact the Sox than Ohtani signing with the Cubs.  Basically just kill off any pipeline of future Sox fans for the next 5 to 10 years.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Chicago White Sox

[Y2Jimmy0]

8 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

It's amazing how many don't realize the Cubs and Sox compete for market share. They absolutely are rivals.

I mean, ok. How do the Cubs stop the White Sox from competing against Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland and Kansas City? 

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I honestly can’t think of anything that would more negatively impact the Sox than Ohtani signing with the Cubs.  Basically just kill off any pipeline of future Sox fans for the next 5 to 10 years.

Jerry Reinsdorf living another 10 or so years is the worst thing that can happen. 

[Quin]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I honestly can’t think of anything that would more negatively impact the Sox than Ohtani signing with the Cubs.  Basically just kill off any pipeline of future Sox fans for the next 5 to 10 years.

Well...

1. Jerry Reinsdorf

2-50. Everything we've witnessed the past few years when the Sox were primed to build a fanbase

51. Ohtani on the Cubs

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I mean, ok. How do the Cubs stop the White Sox from competing against Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland and Kansas City? 

Jerry Reinsdorf living another 10 or so years is the worst thing that can happen. 

The problem is that Ohtani will soak up all the attention in the city...it's like Luis Robert won't even exist on the same planet.

Just barely winning the AL Central once or twice a decade isn't enough to excite fans anymore, either.

Not when a championship window was promised/promoted.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

The problem is that Ohtani will soak up all the attention in the city...it's like Luis Robert won't even exist on the same planet.

Just barely winning the AL Central once or twice a decade isn't enough to excite fans anymore, either.

Not when a championship window was promised/promoted.

Meh. If the Sox could consistently win their shitty division of small market teams, theyd get plenty of attention 

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I mean, ok. How do the Cubs stop the White Sox from competing against Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland and Kansas City? 

Jerry Reinsdorf living another 10 or so years is the worst thing that can happen. 

Unfortunately Jerry living another 10 years is probably going to happen.

Ohtani to the Cubs will prevent any kid in Chicago from ever choosing the Sox as their team which will eventually have an impact on attendance / interest and ultimately revenue.  I can say this with certainty as I have a nine year old son who loves Ohtani and would immediately become a Cubs fan if he signed with them.

[2Deep]

I just saw him do a saki bomb with the jatts at mothers on Rush

[Balta1701]

16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I honestly can’t think of anything that would more negatively impact the Sox than Ohtani signing with the Cubs.  Basically just kill off any pipeline of future Sox fans for the next 5 to 10 years.

Now that y’all have suggested this I’m genuinely wondering if the Cubs might be thinking it - clear out the White Sox for Nashville and there’s potential for a 10-20% fanbase growth in a few years. Is that worth $500 million? Maybe.

[Sleepy Harold]

Better late than never to wear the giant L I suppose

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Meh. If the Sox could consistently win their shitty division of small market teams, theyd get plenty of attention 

CLE getting the #1 overall pick doesn't help.

That said, you can look at Rodon's draft year or Druw Jones' struggles to see even top 2 picks aren't even guarantees.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Sleepy Harold said:

Better late than never to wear the giant L I suppose

We never got an apology from Hector Gomez, lol...

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said:

Better late than never to wear the giant L I suppose

Note that they never burn the so-called source that let them down.

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Now that y’all have suggested this I’m genuinely wondering if the Cubs might be thinking it - clear out the White Sox for Nashville and there’s potential for a 10-20% fanbase growth in a few years. Is that worth $500 million? Maybe.

If it's really a 67-33% split in the city...you'd have to think at least half of that minority would fall the Cubs' way.  That they would begin to pretty closely mirror the Bears...and then not having to compete with advertisers/sponsors and alternative RSN programming all season long.

Marquee would seemingly have more value...especially if they could peel the Blackhawks off.

Then everything related to enhanced Japanese revenue streams interest jersey sales...reported at $300 million alone, and likely to grow unless Ohtani's pitching career totally ends.

Edited December 9, 2023 by caulfield12

[nrockway]

9 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

It's amazing how many don't realize the Cubs and Sox compete for market share. They absolutely are rivals.

Cubs ballpark produces more revenue just for the sake of being a historical landmark (an attractive tourist attraction, even for non-baseball fans) and now for being in a gentrified neighborhood with high real estate values and a clientele that will pay $100 to watch a game from behind a pole. The WGN deal has also given them a national audience and there's some logic in assuming that Cubs capture 'the North Shore' as fans, people with far more money than south and west suburb baseball fans. It seems like Reinsdorf wants to emulate this with the Stadium network and all these "documentaries" about how cool the Sox hat is, to capture national revenue in what is ultimately a regional sport. As it stands, it's hard for the Sox to compete with the Cubs financially. I don't expect it will always be that way, the gentrification of the near South Side is in full swing and will continue on until it's hardly distinguishable from Lakeview, a neighborhood which was not so long ago a working class area.

Personally speaking, my dad is a Giants fan from California and what drew me to the Sox over the Cubs is the ethos of the fanbase...fans that actually enjoy baseball and are not going to games to wine and dine corporate clients (but in 9-year-old lingo and a child's intuition). I still prefer a Sox game over a Cubs game because I can actually afford to go to games on a semi-regular basis and fans are actually watching the game and following the team, as drunk and belligerent as they might often be. I much prefer the team's history too over the Cubs, gritty and corrupt just like the city. The Sox are truly Chicago's team, the Cubs are the team of Ohio State graduates and out of towners who settle in the North Side. 

The biggest thing I hate about baseball is how much it's tied to market forces relative to other sports. Basketball owners have a salary cap and floor that they must stay within, it makes for a far more interesting financial environment where teams can't waste money. The Knicks are a garbage team because they have a garbage owner and they can't spend their way out of it. San Antonio can be a top team because of effective management, not because their owner bails them out with blank checks. Revenue is not tied to team success, as it ought to be. 

[caulfield12]

15 minutes ago, nrockway said:

Cubs ballpark produces more revenue just for the sake of being a historical landmark (an attractive tourist attraction, even for non-baseball fans) and now for being in a gentrified neighborhood with high real estate values and a clientele that will pay $100 to watch a game from behind a pole. The WGN deal has also given them a national audience and there's some logic in assuming that Cubs capture 'the North Shore' as fans, people with far more money than south and west suburb baseball fans. It seems like Reinsdorf wants to emulate this with the Stadium network and all these "documentaries" about how cool the Sox hat is, to capture national revenue in what is ultimately a regional sport. As it stands, it's hard for the Sox to compete with the Cubs financially. I don't expect it will always be that way, the gentrification of the near South Side is in full swing and will continue on until it's hardly distinguishable from Lakeview, a neighborhood which was not so long ago a working class area.

Personally speaking, my dad is a Giants fan from California and what drew me to the Sox over the Cubs is the ethos of the fanbase...fans that actually enjoy baseball and are not going to games to wine and dine corporate clients (but in 9-year-old lingo and a child's intuition). I still prefer a Sox game over a Cubs game because I can actually afford to go to games on a semi-regular basis and fans are actually watching the game and following the team, as drunk and belligerent as they might often be. I much prefer the team's history too over the Cubs, gritty and corrupt just like the city. The Sox are truly Chicago's team, the Cubs are the team of Ohio State graduates and out of towners who settle in the North Side. 

The biggest thing I hate about baseball is how much it's tied to market forces relative to other sports. Basketball owners have a salary cap and floor that they must stay within, it makes for a far more interesting financial environment where teams can't waste money. The Knicks are a garbage team because they have a garbage owner and they can't spend their way out of it. San Antonio can be a top team because of effective management, not because their owner bails them out with blank checks. Revenue is not tied to team success, as it ought to be. 

The crazy thing to me is that the Brewers are already demanding nearly $300 million in stadium improvements...

Or Arlington already having three ballparks in my lifetime.  It's bizarre to go from the old stadium to attending an event hosted in stadium (yes the music from The Natural was involved) during the 1994 Winter Meetings at the "new" stadium back then to that airplane hanger monstrosity they have now down there in Texas.

Yet another indicator or reminder of getting old.

Edited December 9, 2023 by caulfield12

[Jerksticks]

34 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said:

Better late than never to wear the giant L I suppose

lol imagine thinking you have to make a post like this.  Like there’s real credibility attached to any of this sports stuff.  Like people are actually let down ?It’s sports, nobody really cares deep down about any of it ?

[nrockway]

19 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The crazy thing to me is that the Brewers are already demanding nearly $300 million in stadium improvements...

Or Arlington already having three ballparks in my lifetime.  It's bizarre to go from the old stadium to attending an event hosted in stadium (yes the music from The Natural was involved) during the 1994 Winter Meetings at the "new" stadium back then to that airplane hanger monstrosity they have now down there in Texas.

Yet another indicator or reminder of getting old.

It's absurd. Ballparks clearly have a much longer life time than 20 years, just as any building does, but as with everything in modern society, it's disposable and there's profit to be gained by getting the public sector to subsidize a new development so that the team can fit in a couple more "amenities"...anything to make a couple extra bucks so people can do anything besides watch a baseball game. I was an infant when the Ballpark in Arlington opened but I always thought it was a beautiful park, much better looking than the new one...airport hangar is exactly right and that area now is quite literally a giant theme park. However, it seems to be a success for the city of Arlington and so it will be the model to follow.

 

  

4 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

lol imagine thinking you have to make a post like this.  Like there’s real credibility attached to any of this sports stuff.  Like people are actually let down ?It’s sports, nobody really cares deep down about any of it ?

Dunno, it's still journalism that reports on an industry that produces $10+ billion in revenue per year... and I care both about sports and integrity in journalism. Definitely a little dramatic though.

Edited December 9, 2023 by nrockway

[South Side Hit Men]

59 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said:

Better late than never to wear the giant L I suppose

Katy' Perry's Booty Holes, both the twitter handle and in real life, are more trustworthy than jon Morosi. 

50 minutes ago, nrockway said:

Cubs ballpark produces more revenue just for the sake of being a historical landmark (an attractive tourist attraction, even for non-baseball fans) and now for being in a gentrified neighborhood with high real estate values and a clientele that will pay $100 to watch a game from behind a pole. The WGN deal has also given them a national audience and there's some logic in assuming that Cubs capture 'the North Shore' as fans, people with far more money than south and west suburb baseball fans. It seems like Reinsdorf wants to emulate this with the Stadium network and all these "documentaries" about how cool the Sox hat is, to capture national revenue in what is ultimately a regional sport. As it stands, it's hard for the Sox to compete with the Cubs financially. I don't expect it will always be that way, the gentrification of the near South Side is in full swing and will continue on until it's hardly distinguishable from Lakeview, a neighborhood which was not so long ago a working class area.

Personally speaking, my dad is a Giants fan from California and what drew me to the Sox over the Cubs is the ethos of the fanbase...fans that actually enjoy baseball and are not going to games to wine and dine corporate clients (but in 9-year-old lingo and a child's intuition). I still prefer a Sox game over a Cubs game because I can actually afford to go to games on a semi-regular basis and fans are actually watching the game and following the team, as drunk and belligerent as they might often be. I much prefer the team's history too over the Cubs, gritty and corrupt just like the city. The Sox are truly Chicago's team, the Cubs are the team of Ohio State graduates and out of towners who settle in the North Side. 

The biggest thing I hate about baseball is how much it's tied to market forces relative to other sports. Basketball owners have a salary cap and floor that they must stay within, it makes for a far more interesting financial environment where teams can't waste money. The Knicks are a garbage team because they have a garbage owner and they can't spend their way out of it. San Antonio can be a top team because of effective management, not because their owner bails them out with blank checks. Revenue is not tied to team success, as it ought to be. 

Agree with the Cubs North Shore fan base (Hahn, Reinsdorf et al) but the area was dicey, feel Bridgeport was and is safer than Wrigleyville. Got cleaned up and Yuppied up 1980s-2010s, but there are more robberies, car jackings and other crime in that neighborhood today than in Bridgeport.

Also, the Yankees earn the 1st or 2nd most revenue in MLB, but haven't made a World Series since George Steinbrenner died in 2010. 16 of 30 teams reached the World Series during this timeframe, whereas teams with high payrolls such as the Yankees and Padres never reached. Between revenue sharing, keeping players under control for six MLB years and other incentives for the 16 teams which receive revenue sharing, there is plenty opportunity to be successful both financially and on the field if you build your organization with smart people.

There are successful small market teams in each league, and a majority of teams from the largest markets which by and large have sucked for decades with one shining moment at best (Jets, Mets, Rangers, Islanders, Clippers, Angels, Bears, White Sox, Bulls, Cubs,). Sure the Yankees and Dodgers have a head start, but they've won one World Series combined since 2010, or the same as the Kansas City Royals juggernaut.

 

Number of different teams which have won a championship since 2010 by sport/league:

1. Eleven
   • National Collegiate Athletic Association Division 1 Baseball (Arizona, California Los Angeles, Coastal Carolina, Florida, Louisiana State, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Oregon State, South Carolina, Vanderbilt, Virginia)
2. Ten 
   • Major League Baseball (Atlanta, Boston, Chicago N. L., Houston, Kansas City, Los Angeles N. L., Saint Louis, San Francisco, Texas, Washington)
   • Major League Soccer (Atlanta, Colorado, Columbus, Kansas City, Los Angeles FC, Los Angeles Galaxy, New York City FC, Portland, Seattle, Toronto)
   • National Football League (Baltimore, Denver, Green Bay, Kansas City, Los Angeles NFC, New England, New York NFC, Philadelphia, Seattle, Tampa Bay)
3. Nine
   • National Basketball Association (Cleveland, Dallas, Denver, Golden State, Los Angeles Lakers, Miami, Milwaukee, San Antonio, Toronto)
   • National Collegiate Athletic Association Men's Division 1 Basketball (Baylor, Connecticut, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisville, North Carolina, Villanova, Virginia)
   • National Hockey League (Boston, Chicago, Colorado, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Saint Louis, Tampa Bay, Washington)
4. Seven 
   • National Collegiate Athletic Association Division 1-A Football (Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Florida State, Georgia, Louisiana State, Ohio State)
   • Union of European Football Associations Men's Champions League (Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Chelsea, Inter Milan, Liverpool, Manchester City, Real Madrid)
5. Five
   • English Premier League (Chelsea, Leicester City, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United)

[nrockway]

58 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Katy' Perry's Booty Holes, both the twitter handle and in real life, are more trustworthy than jon Morosi. 

Agree with the Cubs North Shore fan base (Hahn, Reinsdorf et al) but the area was dicey, feel Bridgeport was and is safer than Wrigleyville. Got cleaned up and Yuppied up 1980s-2010s, but there are more robberies, car jackings and other crime in that neighborhood today than in Bridgeport.

Also, the Yankees earn the 1st or 2nd most revenue in MLB, but haven't made a World Series since George Steinbrenner died in 2010. 16 of 30 teams reached the World Series during this timeframe, whereas teams with high payrolls such as the Yankees and Padres never reached. Between revenue sharing, keeping players under control for six MLB years and other incentives for the 16 teams which receive revenue sharing, there is plenty opportunity to be successful both financially and on the field if you build your organization with smart people.

There are successful small market teams in each league, and a majority of teams from the largest markets which by and large have sucked for decades with one shining moment at best (Jets, Mets, Rangers, Islanders, Clippers, Angels, Bears, White Sox, Bulls, Cubs,). Sure the Yankees and Dodgers have a head start, but they've won one World Series combined since 2010, or the same as the Kansas City Royals juggernaut.

I fully agree with what you say about Lakeview, I think this probably bears out in the statistics and supports my own perspective that Hyde Park (a heavily-policed bubble), Bridgeport, even Auburn-Gresham and Grand Boulevard (places I spend time these days) are probably safer areas than Lakeview. Certainly, if I've ever felt uneasy in Chicago, it's been downtown (a recent innovation) or on the North Side. I think it's fair to assume that petty criminals are logical and they stand to gain a better score in these areas than anywhere on the South Side.

Regarding the baseball component of your post, I think that speaks to my point of a contradiction between good management and an unlimited budget. Good management can produce very good teams on a limited budget, but the richer teams tend to win out. On the Padres, I feel as though they only traded Soto to look more desirable to a new owner (I think you made this point as well). They traded a potential Hall of Famer to a financial powerhouse for scraps for financial reasons, not baseball ones. Baseball would be more interesting if the Yankees and Royals had the same budget to spend on players.

The entire arbitration process seems frankly absurd to me, that removing it would create more parity on a year-to-year basis if every team had the same limitations to work within, like the NBA, so that maybe a team like the Royals could legitimately trade for Juan Soto and expect to re-sign him, being able to offer a higher salary or otherwise retain its talented players via Bird Rights. Or that the Devil Rays would be a consistent powerhouse because they're effectively managed in spite of poor real estate decisions the ownership group made. 

Trading good players on their last year or two of arbitration is fun to discuss, thinking about the prospects that might be gained in return, but it seems better for the sport if every team operated under the same financial conditions. Yes, in the NBA, luxury tax is a concern otherwise the Oklahoma City Thunder wouldn't have traded James Harden for scraps and broken up a team that potentially had 3 homegrown MVP talents in their primes playing together, but otherwise the parity in that league is far better. Which is why a salary floor is good too, so that teams are forced to spend on players or else lose the money by distributing the difference to the rest of the roster. 

[caulfield12]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/shohei-ohtani-free-agency-chaos-reigns-friday-with-flight-trackers-conflicting-reports-232934777.html
 

Might want to take down the new enhanced thread title, lol

 

1:53 p.m.: A veteran Dodgers reporter says it's the Blue Jays

This is when Ohtani-to-Toronto (Sho-eh? Sho-Jay?) passed the point of no return. Random fan speculation is one thing, but J.P. Hoornstra is a veteran reporter who has reported on the Dodgers for more than a decade and a half with the Southern California News Group.

Now writing with Dodgers Nation, Hoornstra reported that Ohtani had chosen the Blue Jays, citing "multiple sources."

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C0nILOROcX7/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=bcc3a09a-5f8b-429e-8a1e-3465832a20c1

Shark Tanker actually the one on that plane to Toronto from CA

Edited December 9, 2023 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/inside-the-blue-jays-elaborate-pitch-to-woo-shohei-ohtani-to-toronto
 

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/mlb/ohtani-fever-grips-social-media-as-blue-jays-rumours-run-rampant

[Texsox]

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

If it's really a 67-33% split in the city...you'd have to think at least half of that minority would fall the Cubs' way.  That they would begin to pretty closely mirror the Bears...and then not having to compete with advertisers/sponsors and alternative RSN programming all season long.

Marquee would seemingly have more value...especially if they could peel the Blackhawks off.

Then everything related to enhanced Japanese revenue streams interest jersey sales...reported at $300 million alone, and likely to grow unless Ohtani's pitching career totally ends.

My hunch has been each team has about the same number of dedicated fans and it's not that greatn of a number. Maybe 20% of the fans that will engage with one of the teams. After that it's, take it or leave it maybe go to a game or do something else, convenience, standings, star player in town, but they would go to either one. It's all fighting for what some would call the band wagon jumpers. 

I did most of my baseball entertaining at Sox games. Dinner and a game without the buyer leaving their office early was easier than a game and dinner in most cases.