White Sox sign Martin Maldonado 1 year/4 million, vesting option for 2025

[chitownsportsfan]

15 minutes ago, Quin said:

Probably that he was an full-time, All-Star left-handed catcher who put up good production in 2019 and 2021. He wasn't good in 2020 or 2022, but you'd have the best catching tandem in baseball (Narvaez, McCann) for cheap in 2019-2020, and don't end up spending money on Grandal.

To me the Grandal signing had almost nothing to do with Narvaez, or the catching situation in general.

This is all basically fan casting but to me, as a long time Sox fan, signing Grandal was in response to the prior offseason, where they failed to sign Harper and Manny and simply needed to "make a splash" -- at any position. Grandal just happened to be the guy, position was secondary. They signed him on November 29th of that offseason. Hahn was ITCHING to bring in someone after the prior offseason's failure.

[Quin]

7 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

To me the Grandal signing had almost nothing to do with Narvaez, or the catching situation in general.

This is all basically fan casting but to me, as a long time Sox fan, signing Grandal was in response to the prior offseason, where they failed to sign Harper and Manny and simply needed to "make a splash" -- at any position. Grandal just happened to be the guy, position was secondary. They signed him on November 29th of that offseason. Hahn was ITCHING to bring in someone after the prior offseason's failure.

I mean yeah, that's because Narvaez was traded a solid year before then.

Hahn definitely wanted to make a splash, but if Narvaez/McCann is your catching tandem - well, you're either trading one of them for a lot more than Colome and still signing Grandal or you're upping the offer to Wheeler, or going for a guy like Castellanos.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Quin said:

I mean yeah, that's because Narvaez was traded a solid year before then.

Hahn definitely wanted to make a splash, but if Narvaez/McCann is your catching tandem - well, you're either trading one of them for a lot more than Colome and still signing Grandal or you're upping the offer to Wheeler, or going for a guy like Castellanos.

This sounds like a very good plan to me.

[South Side Hit Men]

18 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Sox used to sign every relief pitcher out there under Hahn...guess Getz is now trying to sign every catcher out there. 

Stealth signing of another one.

In all fairness, the Sox had no viable catchers in their system until the July trades with Anaheim and Houston.

Glad they returned the role of catching coach this season after a one year hiatus after Jerry Narron left when Tony stepped down as manager.

[chitownsportsfan]

I gotta give Getz some credit, he's making moves that I don't think Hahn would, especially at the lower levels.

[kitekrazy]

5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

What I don't get is how much credit people give catchers. I think they are expecting miracles.  If you hated the White Sox catchers in 2023, and think these new old guys will fix pitchers, you would need to explain how Touki pitched just as well or better with the White Sox crap as he did with ATL, CLE, and LAD. And he's one of the guys that needs to be "fixed". The pitchers traded, except for Diekman did the same or worse, and no one would blame Diekmans suckage on catchers. Even Lance Lynn had a FIP a run higher with the Dodgers.  Lynn also had probably the best season on his career in 2021 with the White sox catchers.  I think they are going totally overboard with this. A year from now, there will be new pitchers and new catchers. What will be the gain?

It's the least glamorous position in baseball. 

[WestEddy]

9 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I think they are going totally overboard with this. A year from now, there will be new pitchers and new catchers. What will be the gain?

It's the catcher training system Chris Getz put in place. Great catchers with which pitchers have career years isn't good enough. We need elite catchers who know how to win!

[Timmy U]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Stealth signing of another one.

In all fairness, the Sox had no viable catchers in their system until the July trades with Anaheim and Houston.

Glad they returned the role of catching coach this season after a one year hiatus after Jerry Narron left when Tony stepped down as manager.

If hitting .070 in 70 ab's or hitting .180 over a 2-year period makes you viable, it is hard to say who does or does not clear the very low bar to be a starting catcher in the majors these days.  Seby Zavala had very good defensive metrics and ran into one now and again, the Sox released him.  Hackenberg is never gonna be an impact bat, but the arm is a howitzer.  Is he viable? Turner throws well, is a leader and hits lefty. Could he be a late bloomer?  I think when Stassi and Maldonado are what you're aiming for, it's gets hard to rule anyone out as a possibility.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I gotta give Getz some credit, he's making moves that I don't think Hahn would, especially at the lower levels.

This thread sounds exactly like a Rick Hahn set of moves to me.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

If hitting .070 in 70 ab's or hitting .180 over a 2-year period makes you viable, it is hard to say who does or does not clear the very low bar to be a starting catcher in the majors these days.  Seby Zavala had very good defensive metrics and ran into one now and again, the Sox released him.  Hackenberg is never gonna be an impact bat, but the arm is a howitzer.  Is he viable? Turner throws well, is a leader and hits lefty. Could he be a late bloomer?  I think when Stassi and Maldonado are what you're aiming for, it's gets hard to rule anyone out as a possibility.

I’m fine with Stassi, Lee, Maldonado as a transition 1-2 seasons until the standards can be raised. I’m not fine if this is the threshold / bar until Jerry is dead.

The only way out of this mess is years of quality drafts, intl’ signings, future trades and a vast improvement in how players are developed throughout the roster.

The only way out is for Edgar Quero to develop well over the next two years, and for the Sox to continue to acquire and develop quality catcher internally so we have an internal pipeline and not rely on washed up catchers in their 30s like the Sox have the past three seasons.

Can this happen under Jerry / Getz? I have slim hope, but will give it a chance.

Could this happen under Jerry / Hahn? Zero point zero chance.

That is where I am at as a Sox fan heading into 2024. 

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I’m fine with Stassi, Lee, Maldonado as a transition 1-2 seasons until the standards can be raised. I’m not fine if this is the threshold / bar until Jerry is dead.

The only way out of this mess is years of quality drafts, intl’ signings, future trades and a vast improvement in how players are developed throughout the roster.

The only way out is for Edgar Quero to develop well over the next two years, and for the Sox to continue to acquire and develop quality catcher internally so we have an internal pipeline and not rely on washed up catchers in their 30s like the Sox have the past three seasons.

Can this happen under Jerry / Getz? I have slim hope, but will give it a chance.

Could this happen under Jerry / Hahn? Zero point zero chance.

That is where I am at as a Sox fan heading into 2024. 

IF they're not willing to play Lee, what makes us think they're going to develop and play Quero? The 2026 White Sox will surely have young pitching, how can we trust that to an inexperienced catcher?

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

IF they're not willing to play Lee, what makes us think they're going to develop and play Quero? The 2026 White Sox will surely have young pitching, how can we trust that to an inexperienced catcher?

Are you suggesting Lee & Quero are similar prospects?

[South Side Hit Men]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

IF they're not willing to play Lee, what makes us think they're going to develop and play Quero? The 2026 White Sox will surely have young pitching, how can we trust that to an inexperienced catcher?

It’s possible, but I don’t think Lee will ever be a viable MLB hitter. I liked how Zavala developed defensively the past few years, but he is 30 with a .622 OPS. One could argue you keep him with One of the two guys they acquired for 2024, but obviously Getz wanted him gone as he was one of the first DFAs after he took charge.

Quero will be working with a few pitchers coming up. Butera and the Charlotte coaches need to spend significant time preparing Quero. Also should have a solid smart backup catcher in place for 60 starts a year once Quero is up.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Are you suggesting Lee & Quero are similar prospects?

Lee was a decently thought of prospect a few years ago, prior to 2022 Baseball America had him as #70 on their list - Quero has so far not shown up on the BA list but has shown up on the BP list at 89.

There's obviously differences, but the exact same logic does work here and I don't see a reason why they wouldn't employ it. If they aren't willing to play a catcher now because they need veterans to influence the young pitchers, when are they ever going to be comfortable with a young catcher? When are they going to have this experienced, veteran rotation where they can afford to work in a young catcher, are they going to sign a bunch of early 30s starters any time soon? I'm expecting to hear the same logic in 2026 when they sign the next mid 30s catcher and block Quero, and I have heard it about the White Sox young catchers before.

[Timmy U]

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

It’s possible, but I don’t think Lee will ever be a viable MLB hitter. I liked how Zavala developed defensively the past few years, but he is 30 with a .622 OPS. One could argue you keep him with One of the two guys they acquired for 2024, but obviously Getz wanted him gone as he was one of the first DFAs after he took charge.

Quero will be working with a few pitchers coming up. Butera and the Charlotte coaches need to spend significant time preparing Quero. Also should have a solid smart backup catcher in place for 60 starts a year once Quero is up.

I gotta say, this board sells Quero short on intangibles. He works well with pitchers and extremely savvy. The questions with him are measureables. He's not a big guy and the tools don't really pop other than possibly the hit tool. But he really knows how to play the game.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

It’s possible, but I don’t think Lee will ever be a viable MLB hitter. I liked how Zavala developed defensively the past few years, but he is 30 with a .622 OPS. One could argue you keep him with One of the two guys they acquired for 2024, but obviously Getz wanted him gone as he was one of the first DFAs after he took charge.

Quero will be working with a few pitchers coming up. Butera and the Charlotte coaches need to spend significant time preparing Quero. Also should have a solid smart backup catcher in place for 60 starts a year once Quero is up.

You really can't quote Zavala's offensive statistics in a thread on Martin Maldonado. You just can't.

Career OPS: .631
2023 OPS: .606

They're both bad offensively, but we paid a $3 million premium for this version!

 

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Lee was a decently thought of prospect a few years ago, prior to 2022 Baseball America had him as #70 on their list - Quero has so far not shown up on the BA list but has shown up on the BP list at 89.

There's obviously differences, but the exact same logic does work here and I don't see a reason why they wouldn't employ it. If they aren't willing to play a catcher now because they need veterans to influence the young pitchers, when are they ever going to be comfortable with a young catcher? When are they going to have this experienced, veteran rotation where they can afford to work in a young catcher, are they going to sign a bunch of early 30s starters any time soon? I'm expecting to hear the same logic in 2026 when they sign the next mid 30s catcher and block Quero, and I have heard it about the White Sox young catchers before.

Quero was ranked 70th on Baseball America’s mid-season top 100 list.

And there is a major difference.  You power through a rookie catcher if you feel he has a starter ceiling.  You may not feel that way when it comes to a guy who is likely a backup at best given an incredibly questionable bat.  It’s two totally different situations.

[Bob Sacamano]

If it were me, I would have launched Grandal, who was a free agent shortly after anyway, and held onto Zavala and just sorted out the catching situation later. Maldonado blows.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Quero was ranked 70th on Baseball America’s mid-season top 100 list.

And there is a major difference.  You power through a rookie catcher if you feel he has a starter ceiling.  You may not feel that way when it comes to a guy who is likely a backup at best given an incredibly questionable bat.  It’s two totally different situations.

Weird, Baseball Reference lists the Baseball America listing for Lee and the BP listing for Quero, but not a Baseball America listing for Quero. 

But "Both of them were exactly 70th ranked by Baseball America" sure counts as a bit of a comparison, right?

Problem with your logic, you might also be less likely to try to "power through a rookie catcher" in 2026 when you think your team can win 85 games and be in the playoff hunt than in 2024 when you're signing 0 WAR former Royals for everything. There's going to be way less patience two years from now, and they're showing none right now.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Bob Sacamano said:

If it were me, I would have launched Grandal, who was a free agent shortly after anyway, and held onto Zavala and just sorted out the catching situation later. Maldonado blows.

I think this was quite obviously the right move. Hopefully it only comes back as "Balta you were complaining about nothing, we won the AL and had plenty of money to spare because Quero developed" in a few years. If it does though, that'll be a first. This wasted a couple million dollars and blocks a prospect unnecessarily, and it's too bloody familiar to me.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Weird, Baseball Reference lists the Baseball America listing for Lee and the BP listing for Quero, but not a Baseball America listing for Quero. 

But "Both of them were exactly 70th ranked by Baseball America" sure counts as a bit of a comparison, right?

Problem with your logic, you might also be less likely to try to "power through a rookie catcher" in 2026 when you think your team can win 85 games and be in the playoff hunt than in 2024 when you're signing 0 WAR former Royals for everything. There's going to be way less patience two years from now, and they're showing none right now.

There is a massive difference being the 70th ranked prospect from Jan’22 vs. the 70th prospect in Jul’23.  Lee has seen his prospect status erode to the point he was traded for Kendall Graveman.  Right now, Lee looks like a massive long-shot to even be a big league backup whereas Quero projects to be a potential starter.  There is much more logic to suffer Quero’s growing pains than there is for Lee.  And to be clear, I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t give Lee a shot, just saying the logic is much more justifiable in this case.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

There is a massive difference being the 70th ranked prospect from Jan’22 vs. the 70th prospect in Jul’23.  Lee has seen his prospect status erode to the point he was traded for Kendall Graveman.  Right now, Lee looks like a massive long-shot to even be a big league backup whereas Quero projects to be a potential starter.  There is much more logic to suffer Quero’s growing pains than there is for Lee.  And to be clear, I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t give Lee a shot, just saying the logic is much more justifiable in this case.

It’s kinda remarkable how consistent the White Sox have been in tossing out young catchers who took to be better elsewhere.

Tyler Flowers would never become a good pitch framer, so we discarded him for Avila from Detroit. Flowers gets a bit of coaching and becomes the best framing catcher in baseball. Waste of money and made the team worse.

Josh Phegley couldn’t be trusted to handle the veteran staff in the competitive 2015 white Sox, so we sent him out in the Semien deal. He isn’t anything special but is a competent backup catcher on playoff teams, meanwhile the Sox spend more money on Dioner Navarro And eventually Wellington Castillo. Waste of another $10 million or so.

The Narvaez flap that I’ve covered already. Waste of $60 million or so.

Seby Zavala, Kevan Smith, tolerable backups, a couple million spent replacing them each time. One turns into McCann, but the other turns into $8 million on Maldonado.

So…yeah, the White Sox giving up on catchers for our mighty Vetz has happened 3, 4, 5 times since Pierzynsky? The good news is we probably were OK dumping Collins?

Notice also how it doesn’t matter the kind of team they have, same exact result - gotta get a vet from outside. 2015 - we are gonna win the Central thanks to Hahn’s brilliance so we need a veteran catcher to handle the experienced rotation. 2017, 2019 - we are gonna stink but our rotation is young so we need a veteran to handle them. No situation is ever acceptable for developing a catcher.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

It’s kinda remarkable how consistent the White Sox have been in tossing out young catchers who took to be better elsewhere.

Tyler Flowers would never become a good pitch framer, so we discarded him for Avila from Detroit. Flowers gets a bit of coaching and becomes the best framing catcher in baseball. Waste of money and made the team worse.

Josh Phegley couldn’t be trusted to handle the veteran staff in the competitive 2015 white Sox, so we sent him out in the Semien deal. He isn’t anything special but is a competent backup catcher on playoff teams, meanwhile the Sox spend more money on Dioner Navarro And eventually Wellington Castillo. Waste of another $10 million or so.

The Narvaez flap that I’ve covered already. Waste of $60 million or so.

Seby Zavala, Kevan Smith, tolerable backups, a couple million spent replacing them each time. One turns into McCann, but the other turns into $8 million on Maldonado.

So…yeah, the White Sox giving up on catchers for our mighty Vetz has happened 3, 4, 5 times since Pierzynsky? The good news is we probably were OK dumping Collins?

Yep, it makes zero sense.  Even when everyone knows the Sox are going to be terrible next season regardless of what Jerry and Getz say publicly, instead of giving guys like Sosa and Lee a chance, they acquire bums like Nicky Lopez and Stassi/Maldonado.

[AJ'S Cousin]

Martin Maldonado and Max Stassi will strike the fear into the opposition at the Plate. Order your season tickets now before they are all gone  

[WhiteSox2023]

On 12/27/2023 at 10:49 AM, poppysox said:

Getz is trying to improve the culture.  These former studs are like extra coaches.  Maldonado, Sizemore, DeJong, etc. is an attempt to have our young players surrounded by pros weather players or coaches.  I know it isn't sexy, but I like having guys like Moncada and Eloy being influenced by guys who have been there.

When were Maldonado and DeJong ever stud players?

And if you think guys like Moncada and Eloy, who already got their millions paid out, are going to be influenced by these veterans/coaches, I think you are going to be disappointed.  Even if they did somehow influence Moncada and Eloy, neither guy can stay healthy enough to make an impact in a season.  Both will likely be gone before it even matters, and they probably won’t even remember their coach’s name like Luis Robert couldn’t remember Montoya.