What are the Sox trying to do here, really?

[Chick Mercedes]

Cut payroll, dump players, to what end? After the draft, even the benefit of tanking is out.

The fanbase is up in arms over years (now decades) of poor managment, and bad publicity. The response is to make the team even worse? They want to sign a bunch of seat fillers instead of longer term solutions. If there was any time to try and mend fences with fans, and spend a little assets for the on-field product, this is it. Jerry Reinsdorf thinks it is time to go to Nashville. I don't understand what is happening at the height of fan discontent. Typically teams cut payroll before they are sold. Not while languishing in desperate need for lifelines. It's just bad business.

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Cut payroll, dump players, to what end? After the draft, even the benefit of tanking is out.

The fanbase is up in arms over years (now decades) of poor managment, and bad publicity. The response is to make the team even worse? They want to sign a bunch of seat fillers instead of longer term solutions. If there was any time to try and mend fences with fans, and spend a little assets for the on-field product, this is it. Jerry Reinsdorf thinks it is time to go to Nashville. I don't understand what is happening at the height of fan discontent. Typically teams cut payroll before they are sold. Not while languishing in desperate need for lifelines. It's just bad business.

Exist in this weird purgatory until Jerry sells the team or dies.

[bmags]

I'm much happier they are signing some seat fillers and readjusting than trying to sign like...an andrew benintendi type player and saying our 100 loss team was closer to competing this year. 

It's a rebuild, clearly. But we have so much work to do. There is a group of talent near arrival, but we could easily look like the royals (bobby witt, and nothing else) if we don't seriously jump start our talent acquisition and development. 

Like not throwing away our international slot on a slap hitting 22 year old second baseman who sucked in cuba.

[Balta1701]

This offseason they had literally two options:

1. Admit their predicament, recognize that they were a complete mess and this wasn't turning around easily, and start looking towards the future. Put together a roster, but stop doing long-term damage - pick up guys who are cheap and who have a chance to be movable for something at the deadline, clear out contracts where they can be cleared out, pinch every penny and take some gambles to see if you can find any value.

2. Declare that their 101 loss team was 1 or 2 great leaders away and was competitive right now. Add a couple of $10 million players, trade for Perez, declare that this year will be breakouts for everyone and that, gosh I dunno this was Romy Gonzalez's year to be an all star and that surely this year all 5 staters would stay healthy. This is pretty much the 2023 plan just even more blatant.

There's no easy way out, but at least so far they haven't acted like they're in denial about their situation. The nightmare version of Rick Hahn that poisons my sleep is still out there declaring that he's one player away and this is the time to go all in.

[sin city sox fan]

I don't care who takes the field as long as Grifol is manager.   We will never win with him as the leader so I'm just waiting for the day he is fired so I can be enthusiastic about the Sox once again.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

I think the reality is this team is so messed up from Hahn and Kenny it's impossible to fix in one offseason.

[Dam8610]

2 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Cut payroll, dump players, to what end? After the draft, even the benefit of tanking is out.

The fanbase is up in arms over years (now decades) of poor managment, and bad publicity. The response is to make the team even worse? They want to sign a bunch of seat fillers instead of longer term solutions. If there was any time to try and mend fences with fans, and spend a little assets for the on-field product, this is it. Jerry Reinsdorf thinks it is time to go to Nashville. I don't understand what is happening at the height of fan discontent. Typically teams cut payroll before they are sold. Not while languishing in desperate need for lifelines. It's just bad business.

There's no good way out of the current state of the franchise that doesn't involve either spending like Steve Cohen (and being right on all those investments, unlike Steve Cohen) or being bad for a few years. The talent on the ML roster and in the minor league pipeline is insufficient to compete for anything without significant upgrades. Those upgrades will have to come from somewhere. If you're not paying hefty sums of money for them on the free agent market, where are they coming from?

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

There's no good way out of the current state of the franchise that doesn't involve either spending like Steve Cohen (and being right on all those investments, unlike Steve Cohen) or being bad for a few years. The talent on the ML roster and in the minor league pipeline is insufficient to compete for anything without significant upgrades. Those upgrades will have to come from somewhere. If you're not paying hefty sums of money for them on the free agent market, where are they coming from?

And Rodon's $3 million take it or leave it season was all they created out of those high picks, basically.

So now drafting #5 and likely #11-12-13.

No quick fix solutions...although the #5 will be expected to provide it as a collegiate player, it's almost written in stone now.

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

There's no good way out of the current state of the franchise that doesn't involve either spending like Steve Cohen (and being right on all those investments, unlike Steve Cohen) or being bad for a few years. The talent on the ML roster and in the minor league pipeline is insufficient to compete for anything without significant upgrades. Those upgrades will have to come from somewhere. If you're not paying hefty sums of money for them on the free agent market, where are they coming from?

And if we're being totally honest...how did spending like Steve Cohen work out for Steve Cohen last year? They wound up selling off their most expensive pieces and footing a large portion of the bill to bring in prospects.

[SCCWS]

2 hours ago, sin city sox fan said:

I don't care who takes the field as long as Grifol is manager.   We will never win with him as the leader so I'm just waiting for the day he is fired so I can be enthusiastic about the Sox once again.

The manager is one piece but not a big one. There are a bunch of holes and Grifol is not the person filling the holes.  Many of us hopes Grifol leaves but the manager is not going to turn us from a loser to a winner.  Maybe Grifol affects the team by 5-7 wins in either direction. 

[caulfield12]

35 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And if we're being totally honest...how did spending like Steve Cohen work out for Steve Cohen last year? They wound up selling off their most expensive pieces and footing a large portion of the bill to bring in prospects.

Yankees Mets Red Sox Padres Dodgers (postseason) Blue Jays....Cubs and Cards to a lesser extent.

Numerous disasters (other than the Texas exception) around the majors.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

This offseason they had literally two options:

1. Admit their predicament, recognize that they were a complete mess and this wasn't turning around easily, and start looking towards the future. Put together a roster, but stop doing long-term damage - pick up guys who are cheap and who have a chance to be movable for something at the deadline, clear out contracts where they can be cleared out, pinch every penny and take some gambles to see if you can find any value.

2. Declare that their 101 loss team was 1 or 2 great leaders away and was competitive right now. Add a couple of $10 million players, trade for Perez, declare that this year will be breakouts for everyone and that, gosh I dunno this was Romy Gonzalez's year to be an all star and that surely this year all 5 staters would stay healthy. This is pretty much the 2023 plan just even more blatant.

There's no easy way out, but at least so far they haven't acted like they're in denial about their situation. The nightmare version of Rick Hahn that poisons my sleep is still out there declaring that he's one player away and this is the time to go all in.

I think they have done  your #1. Have they admitted their predicament? I guess you can say they haven't if you listen to Reinsdorf's lies and that Getz just prefers to label it a retool rather than a rebuild. But his actions have done what you suggest picking up cheap guys who they might be able to traded later and trusting the guys he's hired to make good evaluations and do things that are highly unlikely to happen by turning garbage into value.

Of course we have the old fears that they do a lot of the stuff in #2 as evidenced by the boards reaction to any Talking Head with a pulse bringing up Whit Merrifield.

The rest of Getz 1st off season and the coming season will provide pretty good clues how as to how he will differ from his predecessors.

[Texsox]

A change in ownership isn't going to guarantee success. The next owner will have a ton of debt from the purchase to deal with. Historically this is a really normal period. Make the playoffs once a decade. Win a WS once every century. That's what we signed up for as baseball fans in Chicago. It doesn't really matter which team. 

 

[Tony]

4 minutes ago, Texsox said:

A change in ownership isn't going to guarantee success. The next owner will have a ton of debt from the purchase to deal with. Historically this is a really normal period. Make the playoffs once a decade. Win a WS once every century. That's what we signed up for as baseball fans in Chicago. It doesn't really matter which team. 

 

No we didn’t. The Ricketts dispelled your theory about a decade ago as well

[Dam8610]

Let's put it this way: show me a White Sox roster that conceivably could compete for the AL Central while adhering to the following limitations:

1) No single contract with AAV higher than $35.625 million

2) No single contract worth more than $285 million

3) Total net spending increase for 2024 cannot exceed $59 million, which matches the 2022 White Sox for the highest payroll the team has ever had.

I chose these limitations because the Machado contract is the highest ever rumored offer the White Sox made at 8/$285 and the payroll has never exceeded $193 million. If someone can show me a competitive roster given these limitations, I'll gladly adjust my full on pessimism.

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

No we didn’t. The Ricketts dispelled your theory about a decade ago as well

With their one WS win in a century? Tied with us. 

We've had back to back playoff appearances how many times?

Make a criteria that this isn't a bottom ten franchise? @Balta1701 had a great summary, I wish I could find it. Wins, playoffs, you name it, we're just not a successful franchise. 

[Dam8610]

5 minutes ago, Texsox said:

With their one WS win in a century? Tied with us. 

We've had back to back playoff appearances how many times?

Make a criteria that this isn't a bottom ten franchise? @Balta1701 had a great summary, I wish I could find it. Wins, playoffs, you name it, we're just not a successful franchise. 

But could be with a different owner. Look at what Eddie DeBartolo did with the 49ers. He may not have had that level of success with the White Sox, but I think he would've been more successful than Jerry Reinsdorf. Get an owner that cares about winning at the head of this franchise, and you'll probably see much different results.

[caulfield12]

15 minutes ago, Texsox said:

A change in ownership isn't going to guarantee success. The next owner will have a ton of debt from the purchase to deal with. Historically this is a really normal period. Make the playoffs once a decade. Win a WS once every century. That's what we signed up for as baseball fans in Chicago. It doesn't really matter which team. 

 

Well, you're assuming now...Hobson/Lucas already have 40%.

They can easily afford the additional $1.2 billion or whatever it's going to take...at one point the franchise was listed at around $2.0-2.1 billion, but you'd have to think after the last two years and with the unsettled ballpark future, it would be closer to $1.8-1.85 for an asking price.

Obviously those optimists about MLB are going to expect $2.3-2.5 million, at the very least.

 

 

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

But could be with a different owner. Look at what Eddie DeBartolo did with the 49ers. He may not have had that level of success with the White Sox, but I think he would've been more successful than Jerry Reinsdorf. Get an owner that cares about winning at the head of this franchise, and you'll probably see much different results.

Unless "success" is defined as finishing behind the Yankees in the AL from 1950-1967.

Or the 1917-1919 teams.

[Lightly Folded]

4 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Exist in this weird purgatory until Jerry sells the team or dies.

Jerry wants to pummel us and grind us into the dirt before he eventually moves the team to Nashville or at least in his mind that’s what he thinks he’s doing. He hates us because we hate him. Jerry “Nero” Reinsdorf is pissed and he’s taking everyone down with him.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think they have done  your #1. Have they admitted their predicament? I guess you can say they haven't if you listen to Reinsdorf's lies and that Getz just prefers to label it a retool rather than a rebuild. But his actions have done what you suggest picking up cheap guys who they might be able to traded later and trusting the guys he's hired to make good evaluations and do things that are highly unlikely to happen by turning garbage into value.

Of course we have the old fears that they do a lot of the stuff in #2 as evidenced by the boards reaction to any Talking Head with a pulse bringing up Whit Merrifield.

The rest of Getz 1st off season and the coming season will provide pretty good clues how as to how he will differ from his predecessors.

Actions speak louder than words.

They haven’t signed any long term win now contracts. That was one of my complaints last year, if Benintendi didn’t put them over the top (with what I thought was a bad team), his contract would sting for years.

They haven’t signed anyone to a market value “compete now” deal. They tried to fill their pitching staff with gambles, hoping that a couple guys will have some value, and they now have a decent number of plausible arms.

They haven’t signed a single fair market value free agent reliever. The version of Rick Hahn locked in my nightmares has signed 3.

They haven’t traded away anything of value to them. No prospects sent out for a mid level 35 year old veteran.

They’ve probably added about $15 million and saved that much on Anderson and Bummer’s deals. In 2019 Hahn added something like $50 million to a 63 win team, had another $20 million in commitments for 2020, and gave up a couple catchers in the process. He turned all that into 0 players who lasted on the roster past 2020 and a big need for a catcher that eventually turned into a $70 million bill.

This is acceptance of their situation even if they’re not broadcasting it. They are rolling a roster with the bare minimum of costs and finding guys who might benefit from playing time, but who won’t hamstring them if they stink. They are taking a year at least to develop and clear out the awful money mess from the former guy.

The offseason did not have to go like this, they could have traded Quero for Perez, kept Anderson, signed Whit, kept Bummer, and signed Severino and someone else like that. Add $50 or $60 million, lose a top prospect, and set up for 90+ losses in any reasonable projection.

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, Dam8610 said:

But could be with a different owner. Look at what Eddie DeBartolo did with the 49ers. He may not have had that level of success with the White Sox, but I think he would've been more successful than Jerry Reinsdorf. Get an owner that cares about winning at the head of this franchise, and you'll probably see much different results.

I would hope that's true, but I'm pessimistic based on the franchise history. I've learned to not get my hopes up.

[ChiSoxJon]

T o answer your question: Say they're competing, while evidently putting together a bottom tier team

Definitely the low point of my fandom

[Vote4Pedro]

The management team is just giving Jerry and Tony what they want…a bunch of slap hitting David Eckstein and Chris Getz type of players

Edited December 7, 2023 by Vote4Pedro

[wrathofhahn]

I hope this team picks a direction rather than wasting money on non-impact players and pretending they are competing.

But it really boils down the fact this team is a mess. We have barely any talent at the ML level and lost 100 games. And yet our farm system is in the bottom half in the majors even after the trades. It's bad folks and fans are severely underestimating how long this rebuild will take.

It's why I would like to see them get more aggressive acquiring buy low assets. Hard throwing relievers, failed prospects who have fallen out of favor with teams, starters looking for shorterm pillow contracts. We need some assets we can move for more longterm pieces. I don't want to go through a long rebuild and the easiest way to do that is by acquiring assets that can later be moved.

We should have moved Santos at last years deadline and definitely should assuming he pitches well move him at this year. We can't afford to waste opportunities.