BurlyMan56 Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Cardinals declined 4.5 option on Fernando Vina... What do you guys think? I'm sure Kenny will look into it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I am not surprised they declined it with the way Bo Hart played this year. Anyone know what he is going to be asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I actually hope we don't. In all reality, he's not that much better, if he is better, then Alomar is. I'd prefer to eiither trade for an available 2Bman or sign Castillo....whichever is cheaper in the long term. For example, trading Maggs for Soriano and others(whoever else we'd get) would be a damn good move in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I'd prob say bout 1 year 2.5 mill, with a team or playa option of 3 mill for the next year. He's a heart and hustle guy who plays great D, but he can't hit too well. Dunno if he can play SS to replace Jose though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Vina is toast no go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I actually hope we don't. In all reality, he's not that much better, if he is better, then Alomar is. I'd prefer to eiither trade for an available 2Bman or sign Castillo....whichever is cheaper in the long term. For example, trading Maggs for Soriano and others(whoever else we'd get) would be a damn good move in my mind. I wouldn't mind Todd Walker personally. I think he would help us greatly in the two hole. Castillo is a lefty though, that is huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I actually hope we don't. In all reality, he's not that much better, if he is better, then Alomar is. I'd prefer to eiither trade for an available 2Bman or sign Castillo....whichever is cheaper in the long term. For example, trading Maggs for Soriano and others(whoever else we'd get) would be a damn good move in my mind. I wouldn't mind Todd Walker personally. I think he would help us greatly in the two hole. Castillo is a lefty though, that is huge. I'm not sure how big it really is. I think a LH power hitter to stick in the middle of the lineup is huge, but not necessarily a LH leadoff hitter. It wouldn't bother me how Castillo hit as long as he hit and got on base, plain and simple. The only place where I want to be more left-handed is in the middle of the lineup...and a Maggs + whoever else with the exception of Cotts and Honel for Soriano and Johnson would be a nice move, and then getting anything you can for Konerko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 The only thing Vina is good at is getting plunked. I'm sure he was close to the league lead in HBP's again this season even though he didn't play half of the year. He should be chaeper than 3 MIL though. he could be a viable option. Though not my first choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSOX45 Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I actually hope we don't. In all reality, he's not that much better, if he is better, then Alomar is. I'd prefer to eiither trade for an available 2Bman or sign Castillo....whichever is cheaper in the long term. For example, trading Maggs for Soriano and others(whoever else we'd get) would be a damn good move in my mind. Am I the only one that is not on the "Trade Maggs for Soriano and Johnson band wagon?" Magglio is a proven stud in the majors, the previous season was obviously not his best that he has had considering that he only drove in 99 runs. However he was the only guy that hit considerably over .300 on our entire team. Soriano struck out A TON this year. I don't see him helping us batting in the lead-off spot which is what this team desperately needs. As for Nick Johnson, he's had a couple of decent years. However, I don't think he's much better than Konerko. (That is when Konerko is hitting the way he's capable of.) If we are going to pursue a first baseman let's go after a solid defensive player like Scott Spezio. CWSOX45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Am I the only one that is not on the "Trade Maggs for Soriano and Johnson band wagon?" Magglio is a proven stud in the majors, the previous season was obviously not his best that he has had considering that he only drove in 99 runs. However he was the only guy that hit considerably over .300 on our entire team. Soriano struck out A TON this year. I don't see him helping us batting in the lead-off spot which is what this team desperately needs. As for Nick Johnson, he's had a couple of decent years. However, I don't think he's much better than Konerko. (That is when Konerko is hitting the way he's capable of.) If we are going to pursue a first baseman let's go after a solid defensive player like Scott Spezio. CWSOX45 The big thing is it would save us over $10 million dollars in payroll. A $14 million dollar salary just doesn't fit into a $60 million dollar payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I actually hope we don't. In all reality, he's not that much better, if he is better, then Alomar is. I'd prefer to eiither trade for an available 2Bman or sign Castillo....whichever is cheaper in the long term. For example, trading Maggs for Soriano and others(whoever else we'd get) would be a damn good move in my mind. Am I the only one that is not on the "Trade Maggs for Soriano and Johnson band wagon?" Magglio is a proven stud in the majors, the previous season was obviously not his best that he has had considering that he only drove in 99 runs. However he was the only guy that hit considerably over .300 on our entire team. Soriano struck out A TON this year. I don't see him helping us batting in the lead-off spot which is what this team desperately needs. As for Nick Johnson, he's had a couple of decent years. However, I don't think he's much better than Konerko. (That is when Konerko is hitting the way he's capable of.) If we are going to pursue a first baseman let's go after a solid defensive player like Scott Spezio. CWSOX45 Hate to break it to you, but you are way off here. Johnson is a potential stud, and a solid defensive, on-base type hitter with 20 HR power. Soriano struggles at times and strikes out a lot, but his numbers were still better than Maggs, out of the leadoff spot, no less. The Yankees would scoff at the notion of Maggs for Soriano and Johnson. Add the $$ involved and the Sox may have to give up two solid prospects to get that deal. Add to the fact they have the possibility of Beltran, Guerrero and Sheffield, I doubt this kind of deal would be on the top of the list for Brian Cashman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I actually hope we don't. In all reality, he's not that much better, if he is better, then Alomar is. I'd prefer to eiither trade for an available 2Bman or sign Castillo....whichever is cheaper in the long term. For example, trading Maggs for Soriano and others(whoever else we'd get) would be a damn good move in my mind. Am I the only one that is not on the "Trade Maggs for Soriano and Johnson band wagon?" Magglio is a proven stud in the majors, the previous season was obviously not his best that he has had considering that he only drove in 99 runs. However he was the only guy that hit considerably over .300 on our entire team. Soriano struck out A TON this year. I don't see him helping us batting in the lead-off spot which is what this team desperately needs. As for Nick Johnson, he's had a couple of decent years. However, I don't think he's much better than Konerko. (That is when Konerko is hitting the way he's capable of.) If we are going to pursue a first baseman let's go after a solid defensive player like Scott Spezio. CWSOX45 I see it as more of a cost cutting move then anything else. We can cut payroll by $14 mill and get Soriano(who is a tremendous talent) and Johnson(who will be a damn good 1Bman one of these days). With that $14 mill, we could sign Ponson, and that would still leave us with $7 mill left. Then if we can trade Konerko to LA and only have to take on, say, $2 mill, that leaves us with about $13 more mill to spend on other FA's. Then(and this is a pipe dream and in all likelyhood, will not happen), we spend about $8 mill of that on Kazuo Matsui and use him at SS, and then either sign a CFer or use Harris/Rowand in CF....if Rowand is used, you can then sign a guy like Reggie Sanders in RF as like your #6 or #7 guy in the lineup, and hope he puts up .260 25 75 25 numbers(slightly better then Jose Valentin's numbers) and hope Rowand has like .280 15 60 type numbers. If Harris is used, you use Rowand in RF....and you don't contend, plain and simple. It seems it could be simple to actually cut payroll and put a better team on the field next year then to spend a ton of money and end up with another 85-win team. As many have said on here, Maggs is a great player. But he isn't worth $14 mill. His 2002 numbers are close, but are worth more like $10 or $11 mill. This past year's numbers, for the $9 mill we gave him, are s***. I think that has more to do with Manuel being a douchebag manager and not sitting his players down and explaining to them to do something that will benefit the team and not benefit the individual(*cough*cough* Frank Thomas *cough*cough*). Maggs bats 3rd and Thomas bats 4th....we could have been playing in October. Odds are, we would have won 2-3 more games and would have still lost the division by 4 or 5 games(only difference being that Detroit would have lost 121 or more) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSOX45 Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Okay fine, so I'm the only one. However where has Kenny indicated that he wants to trade Maggs for financial reasons? Am I the only one that thinks it's possible that the Sox sign him to a long term deal? As for saying Soriano's numbers are better, I completely disagree. Soriano: 38 homeruns 91 Rbi's, those are some pretty good power numbers. However only has 38 walks compared to 130 K's. He does however have 35 stolen bases, his average is .290, obp is .338, slg percentage is .525, and ops is .863. Those are not numbers for a lead-off guy, he's probably better off being a clean-up guy. So why trade for him when we already have got that in Maggs? Not only that but Soriano is not a solid defensive second baseman, he committed 19 errors this year at 2B. Maggs: 29 bombs, 99 rbi's. Walked 57 times compared to 73 strikeouts. His average was .317, his obp was .380, slg percentage was .546, and his ops is .892 Maggs has the better numbers, now should we expect more from a guy that is gettng paid 14 million a year? Absolutly. However look at Magglio's career stats, I consider this season a off-season for him. He only had 99 RBI's when in the two previous seasons he drove in over 100 rbi's. (113, 135) Maggs is worth the investment in my opinion. Then there's the argument that Soriano's numbers better because of the amount of money he gets paid, well in the end I think Soriano will end up getting paid A LOT more than Maggs. Even if we trade for Soriano there's no gurantee he'd come back to the Sox when his contract ended. In fact I think the Yankees won't even consider trading him and will lock him up and overpay him. Ordonez has said before that he likes it in Chicago, he's a fan favorite. He is a building block of this team and we need him here. CWSOX45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApplingsRevenge Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Okay fine, so I'm the only one. However where has Kenny indicated that he wants to trade Maggs for financial reasons? Am I the only one that thinks it's possible that the Sox sign him to a long term deal? As for saying Soriano's numbers are better, I completely disagree. Soriano: 38 homeruns 91 Rbi's, those are some pretty good power numbers. However only has 38 walks compared to 130 K's. He does however have 35 stolen bases, his average is .290, obp is .338, slg percentage is .525, and ops is .863. Those are not numbers for a lead-off guy, he's probably better off being a clean-up guy. So why trade for him when we already have got that in Maggs? Not only that but Soriano is not a solid defensive second baseman, he committed 19 errors this year at 2B. Maggs: 29 bombs, 99 rbi's. Walked 57 times compared to 73 strikeouts. His average was .317, his obp was .380, slg percentage was .546, and his ops is .892 Maggs has the better numbers, now should we expect more from a guy that is gettng paid 14 million a year? Absolutly. However look at Magglio's career stats, I consider this season a off-season for him. He only had 99 RBI's when in the two previous seasons he drove in over 100 rbi's. (113, 135) Maggs is worth the investment in my opinion. Then there's the argument that Soriano's numbers better because of the amount of money he gets paid, well in the end I think Soriano will end up getting paid A LOT more than Maggs. Even if we trade for Soriano there's no gurantee he'd come back to the Sox when his contract ended. In fact I think the Yankees won't even consider trading him and will lock him up and overpay him. Ordonez has said before that he likes it in Chicago, he's a fan favorite. He is a building block of this team and we need him here. CWSOX45 CW, I think the ultimate goal of an Ordonez/Soriano trade would be to clear up salary concerns for the short term (2004). However, I hold out little hope of a long term contract for Ordonez unless the FA market hits rock bottom (it seems to be on the way, which is good). Let's hope rock bottom is in the next offseason. ApplingsRevenge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSOX45 Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Okay fine, so I'm the only one. However where has Kenny indicated that he wants to trade Maggs for financial reasons? Am I the only one that thinks it's possible that the Sox sign him to a long term deal? As for saying Soriano's numbers are better, I completely disagree. Soriano: 38 homeruns 91 Rbi's, those are some pretty good power numbers. However only has 38 walks compared to 130 K's. He does however have 35 stolen bases, his average is .290, obp is .338, slg percentage is .525, and ops is .863. Those are not numbers for a lead-off guy, he's probably better off being a clean-up guy. So why trade for him when we already have got that in Maggs? Not only that but Soriano is not a solid defensive second baseman, he committed 19 errors this year at 2B. Maggs: 29 bombs, 99 rbi's. Walked 57 times compared to 73 strikeouts. His average was .317, his obp was .380, slg percentage was .546, and his ops is .892 Maggs has the better numbers, now should we expect more from a guy that is gettng paid 14 million a year? Absolutly. However look at Magglio's career stats, I consider this season a off-season for him. He only had 99 RBI's when in the two previous seasons he drove in over 100 rbi's. (113, 135) Maggs is worth the investment in my opinion. Then there's the argument that Soriano's numbers better because of the amount of money he gets paid, well in the end I think Soriano will end up getting paid A LOT more than Maggs. Even if we trade for Soriano there's no gurantee he'd come back to the Sox when his contract ended. In fact I think the Yankees won't even consider trading him and will lock him up and overpay him. Ordonez has said before that he likes it in Chicago, he's a fan favorite. He is a building block of this team and we need him here. CWSOX45 CW, I think the ultimate goal of an Ordonez/Soriano trade would be to clear up salary concerns for the short term (2004). However, I hold out little hope of a long term contract for Ordonez unless the FA market hits rock bottom (it seems to be on the way, which is good). Let's hope rock bottom is in the next offseason. ApplingsRevenge Right I understand that, however I think people are getting ahead of themselves just assuming that we are going to dump salary. I know that Kenny has said the payroll will be about the same as last year, but that doesn't mean the only solution is trading Maggs. We do know for sure that someone is going to be traded this off-season, however I feel it would be a grave mistake to trade Maggs when we have guys we're wasting money on like Koch and Konerko. CWSOX45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Cardinals declined 4.5 option on Fernando Vina... What do you guys think? I'm sure Kenny will look into it... I think he's the type of guy the Sox will look into as a vet pickup around December/January. He will be around for a while but I do think he's a good alternative. He isn't gonna get much money, maybe a mill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApplingsRevenge Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Okay fine, so I'm the only one. However where has Kenny indicated that he wants to trade Maggs for financial reasons? Am I the only one that thinks it's possible that the Sox sign him to a long term deal? As for saying Soriano's numbers are better, I completely disagree. Soriano: 38 homeruns 91 Rbi's, those are some pretty good power numbers. However only has 38 walks compared to 130 K's. He does however have 35 stolen bases, his average is .290, obp is .338, slg percentage is .525, and ops is .863. Those are not numbers for a lead-off guy, he's probably better off being a clean-up guy. So why trade for him when we already have got that in Maggs? Not only that but Soriano is not a solid defensive second baseman, he committed 19 errors this year at 2B. Maggs: 29 bombs, 99 rbi's. Walked 57 times compared to 73 strikeouts. His average was .317, his obp was .380, slg percentage was .546, and his ops is .892 Maggs has the better numbers, now should we expect more from a guy that is gettng paid 14 million a year? Absolutly. However look at Magglio's career stats, I consider this season a off-season for him. He only had 99 RBI's when in the two previous seasons he drove in over 100 rbi's. (113, 135) Maggs is worth the investment in my opinion. Then there's the argument that Soriano's numbers better because of the amount of money he gets paid, well in the end I think Soriano will end up getting paid A LOT more than Maggs. Even if we trade for Soriano there's no gurantee he'd come back to the Sox when his contract ended. In fact I think the Yankees won't even consider trading him and will lock him up and overpay him. Ordonez has said before that he likes it in Chicago, he's a fan favorite. He is a building block of this team and we need him here. CWSOX45 CW, I think the ultimate goal of an Ordonez/Soriano trade would be to clear up salary concerns for the short term (2004). However, I hold out little hope of a long term contract for Ordonez unless the FA market hits rock bottom (it seems to be on the way, which is good). Let's hope rock bottom is in the next offseason. ApplingsRevenge Right I understand that, however I think people are getting ahead of themselves just assuming that we are going to dump salary. I know that Kenny has said the payroll will be about the same as last year, but that doesn't mean the only solution is trading Maggs. We do know for sure that someone is going to be traded this off-season, however I feel it would be a grave mistake to trade Maggs when we have guys we're wasting money on like Koch and Konerko. CWSOX45 I agree that dumping Koch & Konerko would be the better move, but I think that we might have to pay a percentage of their salaries to get that done, which defeats the purpose of decreasing payroll to pay Ordonez & make moves in the FA market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I would MUCH rather have Johnson instead of Soriano. I have a feeling that pitchers are going to start taking advantage of Soriano's aggressiveness and give him little to hit. He is a good enough hitter to put up respectable numbers despite this, but I do think he will see a decrease in his numbers next year. Johnson on the other hand is a possible stud that could get better. His plate disipline is remarkable(70 BB in only 324 AB's and an impressive .422 OBP), he is a good hitter with 20+ HR power, is a better overall athlete then Konerko, is solid defensively, is only 25, and is very cheap. I would do a Johnson for Maggs trade straight up in a heartbeat. Not only do you get a player that will probably put up similar offensive numbers, but you free up 14M to address other weaknesses. I highly doubt that NY will have much interest in Maggs though. The Sox would also have to find someone to take Konerko off their hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 Get Both and find ways to move Konerko/Maggs in a package deal for them...if Borchard and another prospect are needed to make it happen, then so be it. Then the Sox can turn to finding a home for Koch and will have a ton of money to add pitching, pitching and more pitching as well as get a new middle infield and Carl Everett or a new right fielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I think if we trade Maggs, then our next right fielder is........ Joe Borchard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I think if we trade Maggs, then our next right fielder is........ Joe Borchard. And that is obviously a big time worrying sign as he is obviously not ready, and I don't think he'll ever be. Think Drew Henson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 And that is obviously a big time worrying sign as he is obviously not ready, and I don't think he'll ever be. Think Drew Henson. How come everyone always gives up on these young guys when they've had just a sampling of major league at bats. It takes time to learn how to hit major league pitchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 How come everyone always gives up on these young guys when they've had just a sampling of major league at bats. It takes time to learn how to hit major league pitchers. I still think he could make it at the MLB level, but it isn't promising when he goes backward at AAA. I just hope KW doesn't giv up on him, and he makes it big with some otha team. Guys like Reed r past him in da pecking order now probably as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 I would agree that trading Maggs would be a mistake, on the surface. It always depends what you could get for a guy, but I'm definitely not in favor of trading him. Thing is, he's got a $14 million salary this year, and some who have posted on this site claim that's solely due to KW. I happen to think with a marquee player like Maggs and the magnitude of his contract, Reinsdorf would've been intimately involved, especially since the contract was signed very early in KW's tenure. Anyway ... Soriano could be a future stud but I don't like the idea of a leadoff guy striking out 130 times ... that's the antithesis of small ball. Not necessarily to advocate a guy like Fernando Vina, but that's a guy who gets on base. OK ... I think they'll re-sign both Alomars, come to an agreement with Valentin too. Reason? They can get all three "relatively" inexpensively, while maintaining contender status. For as screwed up as the 2003 team was, they only finished 4 games out. 3B is set with Crede, assuming S. Alomar comes back they're set at catching. Konerko could very well be moved in a swap of bad contracts, although Konerko may have appeal because he's only going on 28. If they trade him, I would definitely advocate a guy like Scott Spezio, he has ties to the area and he's a good clubhouse guy, not to mention a good left handed stick and good glove. I would strongly prefer him over Daubach. I think Daubach, while a good guy and decent player, is totally miscast here. I would definitely NOT count out Jeremy Reed. Yes, he's still green but if his spring is good I'll go out on a limb and say he makes the team with A-Row again being the 4th OF. Where I see lots of moves being made is pitching. Once again, the bullpen is up in the air. If they can move Koch to the Mets, I say do it, even if it's a salary dump and we get little back. An "iffy" closer is not what a rookie manager needs, they are better off signing Gordon and if he gets hurt, turn it over to Marte. Build the bullpen around Marte. The other key to the bullpen is Sullivan. He's solid, but maybe not affordable, and who knows if he likes it here. He loved Cincy and may want to go back. They know they've got to get a big time starter to replace Colon, that is priority #1. Then, the bullpen. A bullpen of Gordon, Marte, Sullivan, Wunsch (even though he's not my favorite), another lefty like Sanders or Munoz, and Wright is not too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Soriano led off for the Yankees........ However, Soriano is not an ideal leadoff hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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