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British co-worker asked why no relegation system in MLB like the EPL?

caulfield12

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caulfield12 Grand Master

caulfield12

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If there's not going to be a salary floor/ceiling (especially the FLOOR part)...what's the point for the majority of the bottom half of the major leagues?

Citing the Orioles, DBacks, Rays, Guardians, Twins, Brewers as reason for SOME tepid optimism?

 

With MLB considering expansion....why not have those Bottom 5-7 teams in baseball be in danger of relegation like in English soccer/football?

Play-in/play-out tournaments for survival?   All of the AAA/AA markets fighting for an opportunity to get that shot at a major league shot based on running their franchises exceptionally well and having at least 25-30,000 seat stadiums.

 

White Sox, Royals, Rockies, A's, Marlins, Pirates, Nationals, Brewers (if they do a total rebuild and don't get the $300 million from WI, for now they get the benefit of the doubt) and Angels would be in this bottom 9 as of right now.

Then you can argue about the middle-tier grouping of the Tigers, Reds, Twins, Cubs, Guardians, Red Sox, DBacks, Mets, Padres, Cardinals, Mariners...could easily move down the Guardians for 10/10/10=30 balance

 

TRUE TITLE and/or FINANCIAL COMPETITORS:  TOR NYY Baltimore (for now), TB Rays, Houston Astros (for now), Texas Rangers, Dodgers, SF Giants, Phillies, Atlanta Braves (just 10 teams)

 

Since they're unlike to push it all the way down to just 20 teams like the EPL (numerous reasons for this), they should do something to pressure the Bottom 10 teams in baseball to either spend or emulate the Rays/Orioles and innovate their way into the Top 10 at least.

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caulfield12 Grand Master

caulfield12

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31 minutes ago, ChiSoxJon said:

I used to be so against this, but how are LAD and NYY in the same league with OAK and PIT?

Other than a salary floor...there's absolutely no way to force those bottom 10-15 teams to compete at this point.

And running "ghost" teams that will never even consider $100+ million deals isn't exactly good for the product on the field.   So make those teams at least compete with the Top and Middle of the majors as well as the best of the AA/AAA franchises.

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caulfield12 Grand Master

caulfield12

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2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

?

Obviously it HASN'T happened YET...but NOBODY in baseball would be surprised one bit.

Maybe Yamamoto not going to the Yankees OR Mets, but can the Yankees really afford Yamamoto, Soto, Stanton, Cole and Judge on one roster?

 

Obviously they were the ones who started the whole Japanese starting pitching trend in the AL....with Masahiro Tanaka, along with the Mariners.

Dodgers get credit for controlling Korean/Japanese market right now on the NL side.

 

Or you can simply substitute Imanata at $75-100 million for Yamamoto in Los Angeles...

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caulfield12 Grand Master

caulfield12

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7 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Because relegation is stupid. Relegation leads to LESS parity, not more.

But isn't the EPL basically at its peak right now, despite the traditional powerhouse MAN U being in a state of relative disaster?

Obviously the professional football world is doing something right over the last decade.

It's the most profitable, most viewed/watched/attended sport in the world right now.

 

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-there-so-little-parity-in-the-Premier-League

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Chicago White Sox Grand Master

Chicago White Sox

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29 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Obviously it HASN'T happened YET...but NOBODY in baseball would be surprised one bit.

Maybe Yamamoto not going to the Yankees OR Mets, but can the Yankees really afford Yamamoto, Soto, Stanton, Cole and Judge on one roster?

 

Obviously they were the ones who started the whole Japanese starting pitching trend in the AL....with Masahiro Tanaka, along with the Mariners.

Dodgers get credit for controlling Korean/Japanese market right now on the NL side.

 

Or you can simply substitute Imanata at $75-100 million for Yamamoto in Los Angeles...

I still don’t get what your list represents.

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caulfield12 Grand Master

caulfield12

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5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I still don’t get what your list represents.

The three tiers in MLB today...with the bottom 10 all theoretically looking at relegation in an MLB existence based upon the EPL system.

SSHM has his own list.

Basically, there's only ten teams that can realistically win (and certainly compete financially) out of 30 possibilities entering the 2024 season.

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Chimpton Mentor

Chimpton

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35 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Because relegation is stupid. Relegation leads to LESS parity, not more.

Speaking as a Brit, relegation isn't stupid. It ensures all teams try all the season and gives teams in the lower leagues the chance to move up if they get an aspiring owner who will invest.

However, whether relegation would work in US sport like baseball is problematic. How would the draft system work? Would MiLB teams have access to those players? If not then they would struggle to be competitve. Also as the MiLB teams are basically feeder teams for MLB franchises it would open up conflict of interest issues if they then played against eachother if the MiLB team was promoted. Also with the divisional structure of baseball, if a team was relegated, would it only be replaced by a team in that region? 

Any introduction of relegation and promotion would require the whole structure of baseball to be rebuilt.

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South Side Hit Men Grand Master

South Side Hit Men

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71 World Series Wins Pre Free Agency (1903-1974)

  • 21 All other teams 30%
  • 20 Yankees (23, 27, 28, 32, 36, 37, 38, 39, 41, 43, 47, 49, 50, 51. 52, 53, 56, 58, 61, 62)
  • 8 Cardinals (26, 31, 34, 42, 44, 46, 64, 67)
  • 8 Athletics (10, 11, 13, 29, 30, 72, 73, 74)
  • 5 Red Sox (03, 12, 15, 16, 18)
  • 5 Giants (05, 21, 22, 33, 54)
  • 4 Dodgers (55, 59, 63, 65)

48 World Series Wins Post Free Agency (1975-2023)

  • 27 All Other Teams 56%
  • 7 Yankees (77, 78, 96, 98, 99, 00, 09)
  • 3 Cardinals (82, 06, 11)
  • 1 Athletics (89)
  • 4 Red Sox (04, 07, 13, 18)
  • 3 Giants (10, 12, 14)
  • 3 Dodgers (81, 88, 20)
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caulfield12 Grand Master

caulfield12

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17 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

Speaking as a Brit, relegation isn't stupid. It ensures all teams try all the season and gives teams in the lower leagues the chance to move up if they get an aspiring owner who will invest.

However, whether relegation would work in US sport like baseball is problematic. How would the draft system work? Would MiLB teams have access to those players? If not then they would struggle to be competitve. Also as the MiLB teams are basically feeder teams for MLB franchises it would open up conflict of interest issues if they then played against eachother if the MiLB team was promoted. Also with the divisional structure of baseball, if a team was relegated, would it only be replaced by a team in that region? 

Any introduction of relegation and promotion would require the whole structure of baseball to be rebuilt.

Right, you have mostly independent management/administration of AA/AAA franchises...yet the players are tied to their major league teams due to affiliate agreements.

In theory, you'd have the Charlotte White Sox competing (now wouldn't that be something?) with the Chicago White Sox.   No way to avoid conflicts of interest.

 

What you would essentially have to do is separate the minor league front offices from being tied to specific organizations on a yearly/annual basis.

Let's say the Chicago White Sox were relegated to AAA.  A minor league AA/AAA team would scramble to compete for those White Sox players...you might even have a draft/lottery system, etc.???

Let's say Nashville and Charlotte won out among the AAA franchises....so then what?   What teams would be going to those two cities?   Even more illogical would be changing the front office/ownership groups...for example, Nashville/Charlotte execs going to Chicago along with occupying another major league city and running the team there.

So it would be nearly impossible to keep the rosters, front offices/ownership groups and stadiums/cities all together.

You'd almost have to change out the entire organization every time there was a relegation...like an expansion draft, with a whole new team coming into existence in let's say Nashville and Charlotte, replacing the existing one that essentially "succeeded" in pushing up to the majors???

The downside of failure seems more obvious....those front offices would lose their jobs and/or rosters would be put together into draft pools along with unprotected players from all the remaining MLB teams, like when the Rockies Rays DBacks Marlins etc., joined MLB in the 90's.

 

 

A total logistical nightmare, then.

So the salary floors in exchange for some type of concession the owners are angling for is the only way to go.

 

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caulfield12 Grand Master

caulfield12

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11 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

71 World Series Wins Pre Free Agency (1903-1974)

  • 21 All other teams 30%
  • 20 Yankees (23, 27, 28, 32, 36, 37, 38, 39, 41, 43, 47, 49, 50, 51. 52, 53, 56, 58, 61, 62)
  • 8 Cardinals (26, 31, 34, 42, 44, 46, 64, 67)
  • 8 Athletics (10, 11, 13, 29, 30, 72, 73, 74)
  • 5 Red Sox (03, 12, 15, 16, 18)
  • 5 Giants (05, 21, 22, 33, 54)
  • 4 Dodgers (55, 59, 63, 65)

48 World Series Wins Post Free Agency (1975-2023)

  • 27 All Other Teams 56%
  • 7 Yankees (77, 78, 96, 98, 99, 00, 09)
  • 3 Cardinals (82, 06, 11)
  • 1 Athletics (89)
  • 4 Red Sox (04, 07, 13, 18)
  • 3 Giants (10, 12, 14)
  • 3 Dodgers (81, 88, 20)

So there's much more parity today...it just doesn't feel like it.

The problem is that you have been advocating a return to the 1950's 60's hey-day of massive TV and radio broadcast rankings day baseball....which revolved mostly around the Yankees, Dodgers, Cardinals, etc.

 

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South Side Hit Men Grand Master

South Side Hit Men

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18 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

Speaking as a Brit, relegation isn't stupid. It ensures all teams try all the season and gives teams in the lower leagues the chance to move up if they get an aspiring owner who will invest.

However, whether relegation would work in US sport like baseball is problematic. How would the draft system work? Would MiLB teams have access to those players? If not then they would struggle to be competitve. Also as the MiLB teams are basically feeder teams for MLB franchises it would open up conflict of interest issues if they then played against eachother if the MiLB team was promoted. Also with the divisional structure of baseball, if a team was relegated, would it only be replaced by a team in that region? 

Any introduction of relegation and promotion would require the whole structure of baseball to be rebuilt.

The way it would work is to end the anti-trust exemption and phase out direct team ownership of minor league teams. All teams would be independent. No more bullshit like John Henry owning the rights the Red Sox and Pittsburgh broadcast networks, or Angelos owning the Orioles and National broadcasts.

Any group or individual can purchase or create a team. Financial benchmarks similar to The Football Association. There would be a East / West breakout similar to the English North / South divisions for lower tier leagues. All players are free agents. Teams can have a "youth squad" just like FA teams.

  • Baseball Premier League (MLB) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents).
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).
    • Relegation Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball Championship League (AAA) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13) - Winner picks which of the two Premier Leagues they want to be promoted to.
    • Promotion / Relegation Top / Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball League One (AA) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).  Winner picks which of the two Championship Leagues they want to be promoted.
    • Promotion / Relegation  Top / Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball League Two (A) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).  Winner picks which of the two Championship Leagues they want to be promoted.
    • Promotion / Relegation  Top / Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball National League (New) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).  Winner picks which of the two Championship Leagues they want to be promoted.
    • Promotion / Relegation  Top / Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball Semi-Professional League (New) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).  Winner picks which of the two Championship Leagues they want to be promoted.
    • Promotion Top two teams in each league.
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South Side Hit Men Grand Master

South Side Hit Men

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4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

So there's much more parity today...it just doesn't feel like it.

The problem is that you have been advocating a return to the 1950's 60's hey-day of massive TV and radio broadcast rankings day baseball....which revolved mostly around the Yankees, Dodgers, Cardinals, etc.

No, what I have advocated for decades is a removal of anti-trust, truly independent leagues as I laid out above, and the horseshit owners like Reinsdorf and a dozen others forced to sell, compete or be relegated. 

All television should be split similar to the NFL. Gate should be split 50/50 for the two participating teams. A portion of revenue for both would be set aside as transfer payments to the AAA, AA, A and Semi-Pro Leagues.

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Chimpton Mentor

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54 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The way it would work is to end the anti-trust exemption and phase out direct team ownership of minor league teams. All teams would be independent. No more bullshit like John Henry owning the rights the Red Sox and Pittsburgh broadcast networks, or Angelos owning the Orioles and National broadcasts.

Any group or individual can purchase or create a team. Financial benchmarks similar to The Football Association. There would be a East / West breakout similar to the English North / South divisions for lower tier leagues. All players are free agents. Teams can have a "youth squad" just like FA teams.

  • Baseball Premier League (MLB) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents).
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).
    • Relegation Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball Championship League (AAA) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13) - Winner picks which of the two Premier Leagues they want to be promoted to.
    • Promotion / Relegation Top / Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball League One (AA) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).  Winner picks which of the two Championship Leagues they want to be promoted.
    • Promotion / Relegation  Top / Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball League Two (A) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).  Winner picks which of the two Championship Leagues they want to be promoted.
    • Promotion / Relegation  Top / Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball National League (New) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).  Winner picks which of the two Championship Leagues they want to be promoted.
    • Promotion / Relegation  Top / Bottom two teams in each league.
  • Baseball Semi-Professional League (New) (28 Teams - Two 14 Teams Tables / Leagues). Season = 156 Game Season (Round Robin 12 Games vs. 13 League Opponents)
    • World Series Best of Nine (October 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13).  Winner picks which of the two Championship Leagues they want to be promoted.
    • Promotion Top two teams in each league.

How would the draft work? The AAA teams would surely want access to the better players. Also the system of putting players with MiLB teams and then just calling them up andsending them down again would need to be looked at.

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South Side Hit Men Grand Master

South Side Hit Men

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12 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

How would the draft work? The AAA teams would surely want access to the better players. Also the system of putting players with MiLB teams and then just calling them up andsending them down again would need to be looked at.

All players are free agents from Go. Domestic and international players will be recruited in the same manner. Age of consent would be the one issue, so would go with 18 as the earliest a player can sign with any team.

In addition to pulling the anti-trust exemption, also need to pull tax free stadium bond interest for any new stadiums. Let all teams pay for their capital costs like all other businesses.

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caulfield12 Grand Master

caulfield12

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"The big idea, or maybe the big hope, that the Glazers have -- and this was driven by Ed Woodward -- is the emergence of Augmented Reality," a source familiar with the Glazers' business model told ESPN. "The technology is already out there whereby a player could have an AR wearable on his body and a supporter anywhere in the world could pay a small fee to experience a game through the eyes of his favorite player.

"Just imagine how much United could generate from their huge global fanbase if supporters were able to pay to be Marcus Rashford or Bruno Fernandes for 90 minutes?"

Woodward confirmed to ESPN that AR was seen as a "huge opportunity."

 

https://www.si.com/fannation/name-image-likeness/news/foxs-caitlin-cam-sure-to-boost-iowa-stars-nil-footprint-matt9

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Bananarchy Grand Master

Bananarchy

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EPL is not an example for any league. Relegation just destroys the profitability of certain teams. The only way to get parity is to create it via a salary cap or at least more restrictions than they have now. 

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Chimpton Mentor

Chimpton

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On 12/15/2023 at 4:32 AM, Buehrle>Wood said:

Because relegation is stupid. Relegation leads to LESS parity, not more.

Maybe I am biased being a Brit, but relegation isn't stupid. It forces the lower clubs to actually try all season because otherwise they get relegated and lose money by being in a lower league. Yes it doesn't suddenly make the lower teams equal to the big teams, but nothing ever will, salary caps etc won't equalise the teams as the big teams will always find a way round it and the lower teams will still not spend up to the cap. And there are many examples of small teams who get promoted to the top league who go on to become good competitive teams, equally some former big teams who have been living on past achievements have been given a kick up the backside by relegation.

Relegation also makes the season more interesting for fans as there is the jeopardy of relegation. In football here in England 3 teams are relegated each season and 2 get automatic promotion from the lower league and the third place goes to the winner of a play of between the teams who finish 3-6 in the 2nd division., this makes the season longer and more interesting as well.

I know promotion and relegation is alien to US sports but it does work in other sports around the world. It would be far too radical a change to ever happen in baseball but in my opinion it would spice up the season and prevent clubs perennially tanking.

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