White Sox, Getz have more work to do before spring training opens

[Quin]

3 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Yes he was. 2017-2020. Cease, Giolito, Moncada, Lopez, Kopech, Eloy, Luis Robert - they all came through the minors while Getz was director. 

Lopez went from starter to reliever.

Gio needed to go outside the org to fix himself.

Kopech has massive talent and it's gone nowhere.

Eloy had a great rookie season and nothing since.

Moncada is basically the same player that he was when he came over from Boston, after debuting in Boston.

Cease and Robert he can get credit for.

But let's get some others:

- Crochet is being mismanaged (you can blame KW/Hahn for this)

- Vaughn was rushed

- Burger had to go to a collegiate league to develop himself before getting added to the 2020 alternate site

- Sheets trained himself to be an OF

- Alec Hansen, Luis Basabe, Luis Gonzalez, Blake Rutherford, and Ian Clarkin all had various degrees of squandered talent.

- Madrigal lmao.

It's been said that Sox prospects enter the system with their strengths and weaknesses — and they pretty much keep those exact same strengths and weaknesses. It's hard to see proof that argues against that.

If Getz's track record on producing players relies on trades for Top 50 prospects and $25M signing bonus LatAm players - and even THOSE aren't all hits - that's not a good track record at all.

Now, he's in charge, so let's see if it changes with him running the whole thing, but his track record doesn't scream success.

[ron883]

4 hours ago, WestEddy said:

It's funny when it's inconceivable to somebody that another person can choose to notice any positives about another person's career. 

Good luck in finding a job, Kenny Williams. 

You can't spend a dollar if you only have fifty cents, b****!

@Tnetennba

Edited December 25, 2023 by ron883

[caulfield12]

16 minutes ago, Quin said:

Lopez went from starter to reliever.

Gio needed to go outside the org to fix himself.

Kopech has massive talent and it's gone nowhere.

Eloy had a great rookie season and nothing since.

Moncada is basically the same player that he was when he came over from Boston, after debuting in Boston.

Cease and Robert he can get credit for.

But let's get some others:

- Crochet is being mismanaged (you can blame KW/Hahn for this)

- Vaughn was rushed

- Burger had to go to a collegiate league to develop himself before getting added to the 2020 alternate site

- Sheets trained himself to be an OF

- Alec Hansen, Luis Basabe, Luis Gonzalez, Blake Rutherford, and Ian Clarkin all had various degrees of squandered talent.

- Madrigal lmao.

It's been said that Sox prospects enter the system with their strengths and weaknesses — and they pretty much keep those exact same strengths and weaknesses. It's hard to see proof that argues against that.

If Getz's track record on producing players relies on trades for Top 50 prospects and $25M signing bonus LatAm players - and even THOSE aren't all hits - that's not a good track record at all.

Now, he's in charge, so let's see if it changes with him running the whole thing, but his track record doesn't scream success.

Not to mention Steele Walker and Adolfo.

We couldn't even develop a single 1+ fWAR outfielder.

Well, Alex Call was close at one point last year...but Sox take zero credit there.

 

 

We simply have more Bassitts and Semiens that got away than the other way around.

[WestEddy]

51 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The best we can say is we had some influence on Cease and Dunning...but once again those were all high picks originally.

Why do "high picks" not count as positives if they were developed and graduated to the majors? Those aren't negative points. Dane Dunning came back from TJS, graduated to the parent club, and looked good enough for Texas to pursue him in trade. That's a win. 

 

56 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The White Sox haven't even gotten much out of any of their second round and supplemental picks.

No, historically, they haven't. 

 

59 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

We just drafted another first rounder in June that nobody can seem to figure out how to fix his swing/approach/lack of pop with a wooden bat.

Another example. Burger and his wife arguably had more to do with his success than the White Sox...who believed in him so much they let him play in a collegiate summer league without supervising him.

Did Getz draft Gonzalez? Did Getz make the picks for the shuttle site players in 2020? 

1) I am not arguing that the White Sox are a great drafting and developmental organization, overall. However, Getz seems to have done his job better than previous directors, if you only looking at number of players graduated or total WAR, or whatnot. 

2) Developing and graduating talented players doesn't reflect negatively on a player development director. Just the opposite, actually.

3) The Director of Player Development doesn't draft players, and doesn't sign international free agents. They work with the player pool they're given. 

4) I would also guess that the continuation of player development at the major league level is handled more by the major league coaching staff. 

5) Yes, players go outside the organization to hone their skills. This happens all over the sport. This doesn't mean that every single team sucks at player development. 

6) Getz was director for 3 years. The White Sox have gotten better at developing players in that time. Hitting and catcher framing are two areas that stand out. 

7) With the chaotic nature of the KW/Hahn regime, I could certainly see different decision makers punting on each other's players, or everyone getting mixed messages. Having one decision maker seems like a winner, here. 

[WestEddy]

41 minutes ago, Quin said:

Cease and Robert he can get credit for.

But let's get some others:

You seem to have assembled a long list of things that have little to nothing to do with Getz' time as Director of player development. 

There's a bunch of guys like Nick Delmonico, Leury, Zach Remillard, Seby Zavala, Danny Mendick, Yermin Mercedes that came up through our system, and were actually useful. No, we're not talking about All-Stars, but I do think that during Getz' tenure, they did better with what they were given than previously. 

And you're talking about 3 seasons until he was promoted out of that role. Did he make changes that stuck? Anecdotally, it seems a bunch of hitting prospects lurched forward this season, and not #1's. Terrell Tatum and about 5 guys from the middle rounds of the 2022 draft all took huge leaps forward. No, they weren't All-Stars on the big club. 
 

54 minutes ago, Quin said:

Now, he's in charge, so let's see if it changes with him running the whole thing, but his track record doesn't scream success.

While his track record might not scream success, it also doesn't scream failure. There's a lot of noise to pick through, while dealing with 2 of the top 3 decision makers of the org. at odds with each other, trading players the other wanted to keep. 

I think he's taken a few very positive first steps. 

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You seem to have assembled a long list of things that have little to nothing to do with Getz' time as Director of player development. 

There's a bunch of guys like Nick Delmonico, Leury, Zach Remillard, Seby Zavala, Danny Mendick, Yermin Mercedes that came up through our system, and were actually useful. No, we're not talking about All-Stars, but I do think that during Getz' tenure, they did better with what they were given than previously. 

And you're talking about 3 seasons until he was promoted out of that role. Did he make changes that stuck? Anecdotally, it seems a bunch of hitting prospects lurched forward this season, and not #1's. Terrell Tatum and about 5 guys from the middle rounds of the 2022 draft all took huge leaps forward. No, they weren't All-Stars on the big club. 
 

While his track record might not scream success, it also doesn't scream failure. There's a lot of noise to pick through, while dealing with 2 of the top 3 decision makers of the org. at odds with each other, trading players the other wanted to keep. 

I think he's taken a few very positive first steps. 

We really should credit the leap in Yermin with his independent league play in Texas.

The goal of any system is 2+ fWAR players being produced.

None of those guys mentioned could consistently play at that level or we would have gotten something worthwhile back for them.

McCann and Narvaez did quite well...but they gave up on Omar because of his defense.

We saw that with Semien Burger Narvaez and numerous others.  Or simply forcing guys into positions where they didn't belong, like Vaughn and Shields in the OF.

Well we did try to play Avi Garcia in CF.  Guess even he will counted as a success by some.

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Well we did try to play Avi Garcia in CF.  Guess even he will counted as a success by some.

Nobody's arguing that KW/Hahn should get outfield statues for the way they ran the team. And before Getz, there were too many situations where they were plugging in J.B. Shuck for a 3rd of the year in CF. Lenyn Sosa put up post-TDL numbers that looked like an actual baseball player. A guy like Remillard, I believe, is a huge success. Just a fundamentals, toolsy guy who was able to step in for a month and not look way overmatched. I think that's the difference in BG and AG (before and after Getz). 

All I'm arguing is that he's not the biggest failure on the planet, and yet another clown to come tumbling out of the back of the clown car. I'm pretty psyched. 

Have a good Christmas. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by WestEddy

[ron883]

40 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You seem to have assembled a long list of things that have little to nothing to do with Getz' time as Director of player development. 

There's a bunch of guys like Nick Delmonico, Leury, Zach Remillard, Seby Zavala, Danny Mendick, Yermin Mercedes that came up through our system, and were actually useful. No, we're not talking about All-Stars, but I do think that during Getz' tenure, they did better with what they were given than previously. 

And you're talking about 3 seasons until he was promoted out of that role. Did he make changes that stuck? Anecdotally, it seems a bunch of hitting prospects lurched forward this season, and not #1's. Terrell Tatum and about 5 guys from the middle rounds of the 2022 draft all took huge leaps forward. No, they weren't All-Stars on the big club. 
 

While his track record might not scream success, it also doesn't scream failure. There's a lot of noise to pick through, while dealing with 2 of the top 3 decision makers of the org. at odds with each other, trading players the other wanted to keep. 

I think he's taken a few very positive first steps. 

We're giving him credit for guys that couldn't even stay in the league or are fringe backups? Really?

Edited December 25, 2023 by ron883

[Quin]

11 minutes ago, ron883 said:

We're giving him credit for guys that couldn't even stay in the league or are fringe backups? Really?

Leury was held and shoulders the best player that WestEddy named.

Chris Getz was an active player when Leury joined the White Sox.

[Balta1701]

42 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

There's a bunch of guys like Nick Delmonico, Leury, Zach Remillard, Seby Zavala, Danny Mendick, Yermin Mercedes that came up through our system, and were actually useful. 
 

I wouldn’t describe any of those guys using those words. Hell, Leury came over in a trade from Texas, Yermin was 25 and had been in Baltimore and Washington’s systems before here. The only one with more than a rounding error to 0 WAR in their careers is Leury.

[Tnetennba]

Is it possible that Chris Getz has continually failed upwards and would be unqualified for any of the jobs he’s had in any other org, while also already doing organisational things KW/RH didn’t or were very bad at? Again, we aren't talking about a high bar here. 

Getz has, at best, a rather questionable track record of success as a baseball executive. What is or isn’t on him is as murky as who was responsible for what in the asymbiotic KW/Hahn quagmire, while also being involved in and or complicit in those failures.

I’m all for giving him a fair shot, even with all of those red flags surrounding him, red flags that really aren’t debatable in my opinion. A fair amount of skepticism that anything will be better is quite warranted after what we just went through as fans. Ultimately we know who is pulling his strings, so my expectations certainly are not high that Getz will bring lasting change or can bring this club back from the laughingstock that it is.  

 

[South Side Hit Men]

I tend to be optimistic in my nature regarding Sox players and giving new blood a chance. I reached the end of my rope with Jerry Reinsdorf into the second decade (nuking Comiskey, nuking Himes, and nuking 1994 which was my final straw), and Rick Hahn in 2015, so I’m happy for this change.

All I’m saying at this stage is in a few years hopefully we will see an improvement, perhaps substantial, in how the White Sox manage the baseball portion of their operations.

We can all agree the hiring process was flawed, and there were likely external candidates better suited. That said, in terms of realistic candidates Jerry would hire who would actually accept under this salary, organization and budget, I’d say that field was likely limited.

I do like Getz is bringing in external experienced personnel to fill key positions. The new FO appears to have a grasp on evaluating baseball talent and is cognizant of the need to create a cohesive roster and organizational philosophy. Hahn could not deliver for either of these tasks.

Getz reportedly implemented defined written job requirements, written measurable goals and a common organizational shared purpose. This is a bare minimum for modern organizations, but a quantum leap in terms of how White Sox Baseball Operations has conducted business under Jerry.

 

[WhiteSox2023]

On 12/24/2023 at 5:17 PM, WestEddy said:

It's funny when it's inconceivable to somebody that another person can choose to notice any positives about another person's career. 

Good luck in finding a job, Kenny Williams. 

One could argue that Kenny was ready for retirement so he may not currently be looking for a job.  But how do you explain Hahn being jobless currently?  Usually top front office talent gets nabbed up quickly.  Perhaps the rest of baseball doesn’t view Hahn as you do?

And let’s be honest, there wasn’t one other team in baseball that was going to hire Chris Getz as their GM.

Edited December 26, 2023 by WhiteSox2023

[WhiteSox2023]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:22 PM, ron883 said:

We're giving him credit for guys that couldn't even stay in the league or are fringe backups? Really?

That’s sure is one massive pile of crap to describe as “useful”.

[WestEddy]

48 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Perhaps the rest of baseball doesn’t view Hahn as you do?

And how do I view Hahn? I think he probably started out with good organizational ideas. We'll never know if he was some wonderkid or not, because he wound up in a situation where he and the VP clashed, and cancelled each other out. It certainly looks like after a certain point, he gave up, and did the bare minimum, either as a pouty b****, or just wanting to be let go so he could go find an accounting firm to work at. I'd consider him damaged goods at this point, outed as a quitter, so maybe the rest of baseball sees Hahn exactly as I do. 

Let me know what the baseball people you know think. 

[WhiteSox2023]

Just now, WestEddy said:

And how do I view Hahn? I think he probably started out with good organizational ideas. We'll never know if he was some wonderkid or not, because he wound up in a situation where he and the VP clashed, and cancelled each other out. It certainly looks like after a certain point, he gave up, and did the bare minimum, either as a pouty b****, or just wanting to be let go so he could go find an accounting firm to work at. I'd consider him damaged goods at this point, outed as a quitter, so maybe the rest of baseball sees Hahn exactly as I do. 

Let me know what the baseball people you know think. 

I’m sure they think that the list of utter bums you provided earlier as being “useful” is laughable at best.

[WestEddy]

50 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

That’s sure is one massive pile of crap to describe as “useful”.

Please start a list of sure-fire, perennial All-Stars that Getz ruined between 2017 and 2020. Otherwise, he was graduating one-dimensional players at a better rate than previous. And when you compile this list of failure, remember that Getz didn't do drafting, signings, make decisions on whether to promote players who were unready to fill roles that should have been filled with a major league player. 

My argument is that he graduated the guys he should have, increased the rate of what I'm calling useful spare pieces to the bigs, and probably put a program in place that is moving more multi-dimensional guys at a better clip than the previous people. 

[Dick Allen]

54 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

One could argue that Kenny was ready for retirement so he may not currently be looking for a job.  But how do you explain Hahn being jobless currently?  Usually top front office talent gets nabbed up quickly.  Perhaps the rest of baseball doesn’t view Hahn as you do?

And let’s be honest, there wasn’t one other team in baseball that was going to hire Chris Getz as their GM.

Bob said he had his eyes on the Angels job, but that didn't open up. KW is a fossil in today's baseball world, and except for one brilliant season, talked a better game than he played. I can't see any team hiring him for a meaningful role. Maybe a special assistant or consultant, but I doubt his ego would let him sign up for anything where he wasn't the guy.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Bob said he had his eyes on the Angels job, but that didn't open up. KW is a fossil in today's baseball world, and except for one brilliant season, talked a better game than he played. I can't see any team hiring him for a meaningful role. Maybe a special assistant or consultant, but I doubt his ego would let him sign up for anything where he wasn't the guy.

Both KW and RH have milked enough money out of the Sox organization to last a lifetime.  The only person who thought they were good at their jobs was Jerry.  Even when he had to fire them, he still said he thought they could be the guys to turn the team around.  Insane.  I wouldn’t be surprised if neither of them have another meaningful job in baseball again.  As far as Getz goes, I guess we have to hope that the same owner who thought KW and RH were proficient at their jobs just landed himself a savant GM.

[WestEddy]

9 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I’m sure they think that the list of utter bums you provided earlier as being “useful” is laughable at best.

So laughable that 4 of the 5 I mentioned were snapped up by other teams when we released them? Leury's the fifth, and he just got signed this off-season. I'm not sure what you're arguing. You're not disproving anything I've said, or anything you're pretending I've said, for that matter. 

[Dick Allen]

Just now, WestEddy said:

So laughable that 4 of the 5 I mentioned were snapped up by other teams when we released them? Leury's the fifth, and he just got signed this off-season. I'm not sure what you're arguing. You're not disproving anything I've said, or anything you're pretending I've said, for that matter. 

Leury signed a minor league deal after sitting out a season, and he pre dated Getz anyway. Crap gets signed all the time. The crap you mentioned doesn’t play a role on teams that win consistently.

[WhiteSox2023]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

So laughable that 4 of the 5 I mentioned were snapped up by other teams when we released them? Leury's the fifth, and he just got signed this off-season. I'm not sure what you're arguing. You're not disproving anything I've said, or anything you're pretending I've said, for that matter. 

A minor league deal with the Braves?  Leury went an entire season without being signed by a team last year after clearing waivers in Spring Training when the Sox cut him and had to pay out his entire awful contract gifted to him by Rick Hahn.  Are you really considering this a win for your argument?

If only the Sox had realized they had a useful player like Victor Reyes in the minors all last year!  Guys like this are a dime a dozen for every team in baseball.  I’m not even sure what you are arguing at this point?  That having AAAA players lying around in the minors should be a metric to judge the performance of a GM?

Edited December 26, 2023 by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Crap gets signed all the time. The crap you mentioned doesn’t play a role on teams that win consistently.

Let me know where I've argued that. Nicky Delmonico put out a pretty useful 1.4 bWAR in 43 games in 2017. The league adjusted to him, and he never really recovered. Also, please tell me how that's worse than J.B. Shuck's -( that's minus)1.8 bWAR put up in 80 games as an OF replacement in 2016. 

I'm not sure what anybody's arguing, here. It's like y'all encounter a guy who isn't making the same jokes over and over, and suddenly, I'm in love with Rick Hahn. 

I'm saying that the Sox seem to be putting out more useful pieces during and after Getz' tenure than they were before. I don't care if somebody doesn't think that a dude coming up and putting 1 WAR in 40-50 games as a replacement isn't "useful". It is, and all of MLB is probably reading this string and laughing at the tortured arguments

[WestEddy]

17 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Are you really considering this a win for your argument?

No, and that's not even the argument I'm making. I'm not even sure what you're doing at this point. Maybe you should read up-string, and argue the actual points I've made, instead of assigning me blame for what the voices in your head are saying. 

Let me catch you up: My argument is that while director of player development, he graduated the players he should have, and increased the rate of players who could sub in for 50 games and provide value. I don't really care that you hate Rick Hahn, or Jerry Reinsdorf, or pretend that all front offices spend their days sitting around and laughing at baseball players. 

[Rounding_Third]

I'm hoping for Getz to live up to his reputation and the Sox have an historically bad season.  Since they'll lose 100+ games anyway, why not cement JR's place in eternal infamy where he belongs.  38 wins would be % pts under but round out to the same as the 1916 Philly A's, the modern era record holder, @ .235%.  37 wins would be standalone worse @ .228%.  Go 37! Sorry die-hard fans!  I used to be one too but JR squeezed me dry.