White Sox, Getz have more work to do before spring training opens

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Getz being more organized and installing a new org philosophy sounds great, but it isn't a high bar compared to the previous regime.

But it's a bar, nonetheless. My belief is that KW/Hahn had competing philosophies that caused chaos. Hahn may have had some good organizational ideas or instincts, but KW hated his guys, and Hahn eventually gave up (my take). I don't think Nick Hostetler was an idiot. Their drafts were never panned by the experts. They took first rounders in the first round, and picked up guys who were consensus first rounders in subsequent rounds. I can't imagine they regularly drafted guys who were untalented, and then taught them how to suck worse. 

That's on development. If they just drafted tools and fundamentals guys, they should have had a system spitting out Zach Remillards and Jimmy Lamberts. But they didn't. Nobody can pin point whether amateur scouting sucks, international scouting sucks, or player development sucks. Maybe that's a result of nobody having defined responsibilities for implementing an actual program. Some people would say "it all sucks, fire everybody". I guess that's why a guy putting order to an organization doesn't register as a positive with them. 

I have no idea if Chris Getz is a Kellogg Business school darling who is going to set the organization straight. But any order is a step in the right direction. Maybe JR shuffles off in a couple, the team sells, and there's at least a semblance of order for the new guy to work with. 
 

14 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

The best GM in the game could only do so much while appeasing and being handcuffed by ownership.

In which case, I don't get the complaints about Getz being inexperienced. It either matters that he's run a couple of front offices previous to this one, or it doesn't. I've worked for guys who embrace the chaos, then when somebody comes along who can alphabetize the files, they get bored and mess it all up, again by switching jobs on everyone. Maybe that's what Reinsdorf is, and it works for him in certain ways. But that's why Getz deserves the benefit of the doubt. One voice vs. two. Bringing in outside voices rather than guys from within. He's already doing things everybody was screaming for. 

 

[WestEddy]

34 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

He was the Director of Player Development.  What were his duties?

In the time he was Director of player development, (2017-2020), Luis Robert, Moncada, Eloy, Kopech, Giolito, Lopez and Cease came through their system. The Sox also became somewhat adept at developing catching prospects. Seby Zavala went from a rough defensive liability to a legitimate backup. 

Is your point that since we're not fielding a team of 26 All-Star caliber players we developed, he sucks at everything and shouldn't be working in baseball? 

[WestEddy]

14 minutes ago, nrockway said:

I don't know how anyone on this forum could say with any certainty if he was actually good at this job or not.

He was director from 2017 to 2020. Looking at the 2018 draft, 9 players from our draft played in the majors. Compare that to seasons before Getz, where you might have the first rounder, and a reliever from the 13th round actually throw a pitch in the bigs. 

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, nrockway said:

realistically, I don't know how anyone on this forum could say with any certainty if he was actually good at this job or not. is minor league records the only indicator? he wasn't signing the players. do you give him credit for Montgomery or Schultz becoming great prospects? or for Cespedes or Kath falling down in the system?

the GM job is more visible, we can see what moves he's making and who he's hiring, and I'm not sure what he would've done differently to look better to fans. he seems to be doing a fine job thus far, what would David Stearns have done differently?

still, the first big test IMO is what he's able to get from Cease; nonetheless, the organizational structure already seems better than it has in years. it genuinely wouldn't surprise me if the Sox compete in the central, the team actually looks better than last season, the wildcard being the pitching staff. still, I prefer to see Fedde and Soroka than I do Flaherty or Wacha. 

Have you actually looked at Wacha's numbers last year or watched him?

 

[caulfield12]

27 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

He was director from 2017 to 2020. Looking at the 2018 draft, 9 players from our draft played in the majors. Compare that to seasons before Getz, where you might have the first rounder, and a reliever from the 13th round actually throw a pitch in the bigs. 

How many of those players were actually ready for the big leagues and were actually legit prospects?

Not a heckuva lot.

Some would say it was the least talented if roster after the TDL moves of any team in modern Sox history.

[nrockway]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Have you actually looked at Wacha's numbers last year or watched him?

 

the point is that I wouldn't pay 32 million dollars to a 30something journeyman pitcher on a rebuilding team and expect anything good to happen. Would much rather see young guys and bounceback candidates. royals spent $77mil on two good but not great 30something starting pitchers, I'd rather see what the 20somethings can do on arbitration/pre-arbitration deals or slightly richer guys like Fedde or Yariel Rodriguez. spending actual money on those pitchers would've been as pointless as signing Benintendi over Bellinger, at least with Bellinger we could've gotten back one more prospect last trade deadline.

it really would not surprise me if Fedde has a better year than Wacha at half the price. 

[WestEddy]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

How many of those players were actually ready for the big leagues and were actually legit prospects?

Who cares? The argument somebody made was that they're tired of guys who look like they just learned the game of baseball. Everybody's whining about Getz' inexperience. 

Cease, Giolito, Lopez and Kopech all had issues that needed to be ironed out before they became what they were. Are we playing the game of "all their positives were instilled by their previous organizations, and all the negatives were learned here"?

Getz ran minor league development, and players came out of that system to be major leaguers in that span of time. 

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Some would say it was the least talented if roster after the TDL moves of any team in modern Sox history.

Least talented infield roster? 

Moncada can't stay healthy, Anderson preceded Getz, and Vaughn was rushed to the bigs. Lenyn Sosa actually looked like a major leaguer after the TDL. Zach Remillard just making the bigs and holding his own for a while is a huge development victory. Other organizations seem to just churn out guys like that who can slot in for a season, play reasonable defense and hit you .250/.300/.375

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

But it's a bar, nonetheless. My belief is that KW/Hahn had competing philosophies that caused chaos. Hahn may have had some good organizational ideas or instincts, but KW hated his guys, and Hahn eventually gave up (my take). I don't think Nick Hostetler was an idiot. Their drafts were never panned by the experts. They took first rounders in the first round, and picked up guys who were consensus first rounders in subsequent rounds. I can't imagine they regularly drafted guys who were untalented, and then taught them how to suck worse. 

That's on development. If they just drafted tools and fundamentals guys, they should have had a system spitting out Zach Remillards and Jimmy Lamberts. But they didn't. Nobody can pin point whether amateur scouting sucks, international scouting sucks, or player development sucks. Maybe that's a result of nobody having defined responsibilities for implementing an actual program. Some people would say "it all sucks, fire everybody". I guess that's why a guy putting order to an organization doesn't register as a positive with them. 

I have no idea if Chris Getz is a Kellogg Business school darling who is going to set the organization straight. But any order is a step in the right direction. Maybe JR shuffles off in a couple, the team sells, and there's at least a semblance of order for the new guy to work with. 
 

In which case, I don't get the complaints about Getz being inexperienced. It either matters that he's run a couple of front offices previous to this one, or it doesn't. I've worked for guys who embrace the chaos, then when somebody comes along who can alphabetize the files, they get bored and mess it all up, again by switching jobs on everyone. Maybe that's what Reinsdorf is, and it works for him in certain ways. But that's why Getz deserves the benefit of the doubt. One voice vs. two. Bringing in outside voices rather than guys from within. He's already doing things everybody was screaming for. 

 

Why are we to believe KW was the problem and Hahn was just the poor victim?  Last I checked, KW’s record as GM blows Hahn’s out of the water.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

In the time he was Director of player development, (2017-2020), Luis Robert, Moncada, Eloy, Kopech, Giolito, Lopez and Cease came through their system. The Sox also became somewhat adept at developing catching prospects. Seby Zavala went from a rough defensive liability to a legitimate backup. 

Is your point that since we're not fielding a team of 26 All-Star caliber players we developed, he sucks at everything and shouldn't be working in baseball? 

You’re giving Getz credit for partially developing a bunch of elite prospects?

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Who cares? The argument somebody made was that they're tired of guys who look like they just learned the game of baseball. Everybody's whining about Getz' inexperience. 

Cease, Giolito, Lopez and Kopech all had issues that needed to be ironed out before they became what they were. Are we playing the game of "all their positives were instilled by their previous organizations, and all the negatives were learned here"?

Getz ran minor league development, and players came out of that system to be major leaguers in that span of time. 

Cease struggled for a couple years when he first came up and still needed a lot of work.  Giolito was terrible and had to go outside the org for help.  Kopech has been a massive disappointment despite having an insane about of talent.  Lopez was also a huge disappointment before Katz helped turn him into a solid reliever.  If these are your examples of Getz being successful at his job, then I think it proves he wasn’t very good at it.

[ron883]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

He was director from 2017 to 2020. Looking at the 2018 draft, 9 players from our draft played in the majors. Compare that to seasons before Getz, where you might have the first rounder, and a reliever from the 13th round actually throw a pitch in the bigs. 

It's nice to meet you Chris. I wish you luck next season. 

[WestEddy]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You’re giving Getz credit for partially developing a bunch of elite prospects?

Yes. Why wouldn't I? His job was Director of Player Development. Minor Leaguers were developed. Dylan Cease spent 2 full years in our minor leagues. Can you tell us what part of Cease's abilities they didn't hone?

 

12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why are we to believe KW was the problem and Hahn was just the poor victim?  Last I checked, KW’s record as GM blows Hahn’s out of the water.

I don't see where I say that KW was the problem. I do think that the executive VP and the GM were not on the same page. Hahn tried to quit on at least one occasion, and was told he would be forced to honor his contract. So Hahn was working in a job he tried to leave. I also don't see what team records have to do with their relationship. 

[WestEddy]

6 minutes ago, ron883 said:

It's nice to meet you Chris. I wish you luck next season. 

It's funny when it's inconceivable to somebody that another person can choose to notice any positives about another person's career. 

Good luck in finding a job, Kenny Williams. 

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, nrockway said:

the point is that I wouldn't pay 32 million dollars to a 30something journeyman pitcher on a rebuilding team and expect anything good to happen. Would much rather see young guys and bounceback candidates. royals spent $77mil on two good but not great 30something starting pitchers, I'd rather see what the 20somethings can do on arbitration/pre-arbitration deals or slightly richer guys like Fedde or Yariel Rodriguez. spending actual money on those pitchers would've been as pointless as signing Benintendi over Bellinger, at least with Bellinger we could've gotten back one more prospect last trade deadline.

it really would not surprise me if Fedde has a better year than Wacha at half the price. 

Some expect Rodriguez to end up in in the $40-45 million range.

Way too expensive for the Sox, especially if they're not sure he can even be a starter in the majors.

 

The Sox have done well with Rodon Cueto Scholtens Santos...but nothing sustainable long term.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Yes. Why wouldn't I? His job was Director of Player Development. Minor Leaguers were developed. Dylan Cease spent 2 full years in our minor leagues. Can you tell us what part of Cease's abilities they didn't hone?

 

I don't see where I say that KW was the problem. I do think that the executive VP and the GM were not on the same page. Hahn tried to quit on at least one occasion, and was told he would be forced to honor his contract. So Hahn was working in a job he tried to leave. I also don't see what team records have to do with their relationship. 

Except Getz wasn't in charge of the Sox minors then...

[WestEddy]

17 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

If these are your examples of Getz being successful at his job, then I think it proves he wasn’t very good at it.

You seem to be having an argument with somebody inside your head, because you're not quoting me. 

However, he was the director of player development while the recent core all came through the system. So he's not "inexperienced". Does the director of player development generally deliver prospects to the majors who never need any fine tuning, never regress, and always succeed henceforth? Or does the big league club have coaches who work with them going forward? 

If you want to be angry they didn't go out and get a big name as GM, good for you. Nobody's stopping you. But I'm not going to pretend that dude's an outright failure because you believe that everything good about a player happened elsewhere, and everything bad happened here.

I suppose Getz made Kopech into a head case, or broke all of Moncada's conditioning equipment so he couldn't last a full season without injury. 

And yes, players do go outside their organizations to pitching or hitting labs to fine-tune their game. Mookie Betts and Clayton Kershaw have worked with Driveline on their own. I guess that means that the Dodgers are a massive failure in developing players. Everyone in their organization should be fired. 

[WestEddy]

13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Except Getz wasn't in charge of the Sox minors then...

Yes he was. 2017-2020. Cease, Giolito, Moncada, Lopez, Kopech, Eloy, Luis Robert - they all came through the minors while Getz was director. 

[Chicago White Sox]

28 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

You seem to be having an argument with somebody inside your head, because you're not quoting me. 

However, he was the director of player development while the recent core all came through the system. So he's not "inexperienced". Does the director of player development generally deliver prospects to the majors who never need any fine tuning, never regress, and always succeed henceforth? Or does the big league club have coaches who work with them going forward? 

If you want to be angry they didn't go out and get a big name as GM, good for you. Nobody's stopping you. But I'm not going to pretend that dude's an outright failure because you believe that everything good about a player happened elsewhere, and everything bad happened here.

I suppose Getz made Kopech into a head case, or broke all of Moncada's conditioning equipment so he couldn't last a full season without injury. 

And yes, players do go outside their organizations to pitching or hitting labs to fine-tune their game. Mookie Betts and Clayton Kershaw have worked with Driveline on their own. I guess that means that the Dodgers are a massive failure in developing players. Everyone in their organization should be fired. 

My point is Getz’s record as Farm Director is poor at best while you’re giving him credit because Hahn acquired a bunch of elite prospects who came up with significant development required.  I guess I’m confused on what you’re actually arguing here.

[SCCWS]

8 hours ago, spiderman said:

What is sounding good on paper for what the White Sox have done to this point or are expected to be doing?

I think the direction of the organization is well known at this point.

"Getz definitely is organized.  For the first time the WhiteSox have an organization philosophy.  He also got all the department heads together and outlined their job description, responsibilities,  goals and how best to reach them.  I was told people were "blown away." No one had ever done anything like that before.  It's not going to happen overnight but Getz is turning this organization around. "

 

Sounds like you got lost. You are posting on my response to Harold. I said it sounds good on paper but Getz has not accomplished anything  for real. Until Getz turns his plans into actions and we see results, his plans don't mean anything. 

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

My point is Getz’s record as Farm Director is poor at best while you’re giving him credit because Hahn acquired a bunch of elite prospects who came up with significant development required.  I guess I’m confused on what you’re actually arguing here.

My argument is that Getz is not "inexperienced". He's not green. He was player development director for 3 years, then asst. GM for 3 years. I get tired of the "they promoted a guy with no experience" comments. That's simply not true. 

As director, he graduated more players to mlb roles than previous seasons before his directorship. That's a win. The 7 major pieces they traded for in 2016 all made it to the majors. I'm not sure how that proves he was poor, at best, at his job. Is that all on him? Who knows? But that did happen during his tenure. 

What is his record as farm director? Here's how Orioles' Brian Graham described his same job:
 

Quote

I oversee the development process of all the minor league players and I also manage all interactions that happen between the big league club and the minor league system. Everything from player instruction, to the teaching process of coaches, managers, and coordinators. Along with that, I also oversee the strength and conditioning program, the medical care of players and staff, and their health and nutrition.
Pretty much all of the development work and planning that goes into each and every player in the Orioles Minor League system, I am responsible for.

I'm guessing this mostly deals with staffing, facilitating communication systems, probably researching and implementing instruction systems for coaches, while passing on the organization's goals and procedures for training, conditioning and monitoring of players. While they do work with the actual players, they're not teaching curve-balls and running sliding exercises. It's a management roll, and he's implementing the vision of the higher-ups, while probably streamlining, finding bottlenecks, staying state-of-the-art, etc. 

I also surmise he had a pretty frank assessment of the Sox' development system as run under KW/Hahn. Sure, Getz probably has input. But at best, he's probably proposing system changes, and they're either approved or not. 

So I don't really think you can call his performance "poor". He put KW/Hahn's vision into practice while also reviewing what worked and what didn't. 

 

[Vote4Pedro]

10 hours ago, fathom said:

One thing that came out after he was hired, I believe it was from Levine, was Getz fundamentally disagreed with a lot of Hahn’s personnel decisions.

Easy to say that now after the fact when the majority of his personnel decisions flamed out and he is the one guy within the s%*# show organization to not only stay but get a promotion. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

4 minutes ago, Vote4Pedro said:

Easy to say that now after the fact when the majority of his personnel decisions flamed out and he is the one guy within the s%*# show organization to not only stay but get a promotion. 

My immediate thoughts too

[Vote4Pedro]

We’re fortunate to play in the AL Central…what a crock of s%*# and a loser mentality. So damn tired of hearing this quote from this organization over and over again. Yet, they will still find themselves at the very bottom of the worst division in baseball.

[caulfield12]

57 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

My argument is that Getz is not "inexperienced". He's not green. He was player development director for 3 years, then asst. GM for 3 years. I get tired of the "they promoted a guy with no experience" comments. That's simply not true. 

As director, he graduated more players to mlb roles than previous seasons before his directorship. That's a win. The 7 major pieces they traded for in 2016 all made it to the majors. I'm not sure how that proves he was poor, at best, at his job. Is that all on him? Who knows? But that did happen during his tenure. 

What is his record as farm director? Here's how Orioles' Brian Graham described his same job:
 

I'm guessing this mostly deals with staffing, facilitating communication systems, probably researching and implementing instruction systems for coaches, while passing on the organization's goals and procedures for training, conditioning and monitoring of players. While they do work with the actual players, they're not teaching curve-balls and running sliding exercises. It's a management roll, and he's implementing the vision of the higher-ups, while probably streamlining, finding bottlenecks, staying state-of-the-art, etc. 

I also surmise he had a pretty frank assessment of the Sox' development system as run under KW/Hahn. Sure, Getz probably has input. But at best, he's probably proposing system changes, and they're either approved or not. 

So I don't really think you can call his performance "poor". He put KW/Hahn's vision into practice while also reviewing what worked and what didn't. 

 

The way most look at is who became significant contributors at the major League level that were not expected to on the day they were drafted or acquired via trade...?

All of those guys who graduated to the bigs from 2017-19 were really elite prospects...enough to get the system ranked at the top of the sport.

The best we can say is we had some influence on Cease and Dunning...but once again those were all high picks originally.

Where the Guardians have destroyed the Sox is picks after the first round.

The White Sox haven't even gotten much out of any of their second round and supplemental picks.

 

Think of it like Iowa football turning multiple 2-3 star recruits into NFL stars.  You almost never see it in the NBA...but the White Sox have just been abysmal at even getting the majority of first rounders to stick as permanent fixtures.  Partly on JR, but partly on development too.

We don't have a single player other than Montgomery you would confidently predict would be a $100+ million contract someday...well, Robert as well, but nobody has ever credited Chris Getz with developing Luis...it's more about not getting in the way of his raw talent and trying to change him.

We just drafted another first rounder in June that nobody can seem to figure out how to fix his swing/approach/lack of pop with a wooden bat.

Another example. Burger and his wife arguably had more to do with his success than the White Sox...who believed in him so much they let him play in a collegiate summer league without supervising him.

Edited December 25, 2023 by caulfield12