WhiteSox2023 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ptatc said: Because there weren't any real good options to add. They already had a player on the roster with closing experience. Once again, Chapman. Obviously it doesn’t matter now. Just more of the same bad owner that never went the extra mile to win. Edited January 11 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 9 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Just more of the same bad owner that never went the extra mile to win. There are so many other more convincing arguments to support this statement than the one you're making. The Sox had 4 proven, veteran relievers on staff, one of whom has closing experience. They also has a small bunch of arms with MLB experience on the 40 man, and freshly signed to minor league contracts where it wasn't crazy for them to look at the market, and decide they were good. The problem wasn't that they weren't prepared to throw money at a violent abuser to prove they "wanted to win", the problem was that Kelly and Bummer sucked @ss, and Graveman didn't pitch to his ceiling. I remember Lopez being a pleasant surprise, mostly when it didn't matter. The fact that they went into the season with Andrus at 2B and Colas/Sheets in RF is the argument that JR will pound away at a square peg before buying one of the cheap round ones laying at his feet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 28 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Once again, Chapman. And after strong 2021 and 2022 seasons, they decided to make Lopez their closer in April. With Graveman still on the staff. Aroldis Chapman was coming off of two incredibly sub-meh seasons with the Yankees. It certainly seems reasonable for the sox to think they had the position of "closer" covered in house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrockway Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 37 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: I gave you an example in Chapman but I guess he wasn’t good enough. He was such a clubhouse cancer that he blew the World Series for the Cubs. Also, Santos was a complete unknown at the time. The Sox had no idea he would have a good season out of no where. Still, the point is that in a season the Sox were supposed to compete for the division, the Sox lost their Allstar closer in January and didn’t even attempt to replace him. Chapman had a fine season last year after a disastrous 2022 where he clearly was a clubhouse cancer. there's good reason he was still available in January and signed with the Royals. I agreed with you that he was clearly the best free agent option, but there were several guys already on the team that were better options to replace Liam, namely Graveman who had a pretty much equivalent season to Chapman. the fact that Santos impressed just goes to show that it's pointless to spend actual money on relief pitchers. something tells me this team wouldn't have been better off if they paid one more relief pitcher. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Mods, please change the thread title to “Crochet Preparing For Arm to Fall Off” 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 4 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Once again, Chapman. Obviously it doesn’t matter now. Just more of the same bad owner that never went the extra mile to win. Chapman would not have been much of an upgrade if at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rounding_Third Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 This plan to covert Crotchet to SP from draft day has been asinine from the start. He was barely a starter at TN in 2 years (+ 1 2020 3.1 inn start) He had 12 starts in 35 appearances over 2018 &19. Only 1 went as long as 8 innings; 4 were 6+, 2 were 5+. All others were 4 or less innings and he mostly got creamed until they removed him from their rotation. He was a fairly successful reliever but wore down quickly as a starter both years. Its just astonishing that no one in this org ever scouted that he cant start and still believes he can. White Sox FO stupidity is their only success; its consistent trough regimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Heavens to betsy they want a pitcher to pitch. Goodness gracious whats next. They're gonna want hitters to hit. Fielders to field. Oh the humanity when is the madness going to stop! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: Heavens to betsy they want a pitcher to pitch. Goodness gracious whats next. They're gonna want hitters to hit. Fielders to field. Oh the humanity when is the madness going to stop! We all know that due to advanced metrics the only thing most people are pushing is velocity for avoiding g contact. That is the best way to get outs, shred pitchers arms and decrease the length of any outing. I hope the Sox are attempting to change that trend. Hitters don't hit they swing for the fences as that's been shown to produce more runs and decrease the fun of the game. Edited January 12 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, ptatc said: Chapman would not have been much of an upgrade if at all. The stats definitely disagree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 6 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: I gave you an example in Chapman but I guess he wasn’t good enough. He was such a clubhouse cancer that he blew the World Series for the Cubs. Also, Santos was a complete unknown at the time. The Sox had no idea he would have a good season out of no where. Still, the point is that in a season the Sox were supposed to compete for the division, the Sox lost their Allstar closer in January and didn’t even attempt to replace him. This was eight seasons ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Rounding_Third said: This plan to covert Crotchet to SP from draft day has been asinine from the start. He was barely a starter at TN in 2 years (+ 1 2020 3.1 inn start) He had 12 starts in 35 appearances over 2018 &19. Only 1 went as long as 8 innings; 4 were 6+, 2 were 5+. All others were 4 or less innings and he mostly got creamed until they removed him from their rotation. He was a fairly successful reliever but wore down quickly as a starter both years. Its just astonishing that no one in this org ever scouted that he cant start and still believes he can. White Sox FO stupidity is their only success; its consistent trough regimes. We will see with Joyce, right? If his results coming out of Tenn are any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said: The stats definitely disagree with you. Don't think so. He wasn't much better than graveman. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 21 minutes ago, ptatc said: Don't think so. He wasn't much better than graveman. Obviously last year was a lost season regardless and it wouldn’t have mattered in the grand scheme of things, but how would having two relievers with similarly good stats not have been better than just one, with Hendriks on the injured list? Chapman wouldn’t have been an improvement on Jimmy Lambert’s 5.26 ERA in 37.2 innings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Obviously last year was a lost season regardless and it wouldn’t have mattered in the grand scheme of things, but how would having two relievers with similarly good stats not have been better than just one, with Hendriks on the injured list? Chapman wouldn’t have been an improvement on Jimmy Lambert’s 5.26 ERA in 37.2 innings? Because he wasn't going to sign to not be the at least the one of the primary closers. So you need to compare him to graveman not the weakest link in the bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 25 minutes ago, ptatc said: Because he wasn't going to sign to not be the at least the one of the primary closers. So you need to compare him to graveman not the weakest link in the bullpen. The White Sox odds of identifying Cole Ragans as the prospect coming back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, ptatc said: Because he wasn't going to sign to not be the at least the one of the primary closers. So you need to compare him to graveman not the weakest link in the bullpen. Scott Barlow was the Royals’ closer to start the season, not Chapman, and Barlow ended up with 13 saves out of 16 opportunities. Chapman had 2 saves out of 4 opportunities for the Royals before he was traded to the Rangers. Graveman had 8 saves out of 12 opportunities for the White Sox before he was traded to the Astros. Hendriks came back early and finished the season with 1 save out of his 1 opportunity before needing TJ surgery. Also, Jimmy Lambert had 1 save out of 1 opportunity and pitched more innings (37.2) than he likely should have with a 5+ ERA due to the fact that the Sox didn’t have a better high leverage reliever like Chapman on the roster. So you are saying that Chapman signed with the Royals on January 27, 2023 knowing he would only be the “backup” closer to Barlow, but he definitely wouldn’t have signed with the Sox while knowing that Hendriks was diagnosed with cancer on January 8th and that he would start the season as the “backup” closer to Graveman, the same situation as backing up Barlow with the Royals? Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 38 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: The White Sox odds of identifying Cole Ragans as the prospect coming back? Thanks. I forgot to even mention the steal of a starting pitcher the Royals got back from the Rangers for 29.1 innings of Chapman, while only paying for about half of his $3.75 million salary. Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 hours ago, caulfield12 said: The White Sox odds of identifying Cole Ragans as the prospect coming back? Ragans reminded me that I still got it. Loved ragans, loved the deal for the royals, and personally had been holding him on all year myself! Hire me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Scott Barlow was the Royals’ closer to start the season, not Chapman, and Barlow ended up with 13 saves out of 16 opportunities. Chapman had 2 saves out of 4 opportunities for the Royals before he was traded to the Rangers. Graveman had 8 saves out of 12 opportunities for the White Sox before he was traded to the Astros. Hendriks came back early and finished the season with 1 save out of his 1 opportunity before needing TJ surgery. Also, Jimmy Lambert had 1 save out of 1 opportunity and pitched more innings (37.2) than he likely should have with a 5+ ERA due to the fact that the Sox didn’t have a better high leverage reliever like Chapman on the roster. So you are saying that Chapman signed with the Royals on January 27, 2023 knowing he would only be the “backup” closer to Barlow, but he definitely wouldn’t have signed with the Sox while knowing that Hendriks was diagnosed with cancer on January 8th and that he would start the season as the “backup” closer to Graveman, the same situation as backing up Barlow with the Royals? He had a better opportunity to close there than with graveman here. As far as Lambert getting a save, other pitchers beside the primary closer will always have a few opportunities. They can't pitch everyday. Between the Sox near the luxury tax, the players on the roster and who was available signing another player just wasn't really an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 15 minutes ago, ptatc said: He had a better opportunity to close there than with graveman here. As far as Lambert getting a save, other pitchers beside the primary closer will always have a few opportunities. They can't pitch everyday. Between the Sox near the luxury tax, the players on the roster and who was available signing another player just wasn't really an option. The Sox weren’t near the luxury tax last year. Eight teams were and had to pay up. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/tax/2023/#:~:text=MLB Team Luxury Tax Tracker&text=The 2023 CBT Threshold is %24233%2C000%2C000. Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 17 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: The Sox weren’t near the luxury tax last year. Eight teams were and had to pay up. https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/tax/2023/#:~:text=MLB Team Luxury Tax Tracker&text=The 2023 CBT Threshold is %24233%2C000%2C000. Yes they were when you consider they aren't going to go over and at the beginning of the season the plan was to compete last year. If they go right up to it because before the season they have no flexibility to acquire anyone. Acquiring a marginally better if at all pitcher prior to the season starting just wasn't worth it. Where does Chapman fit if Hendriks returns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 13 minutes ago, ptatc said: Yes they were when you consider they aren't going to go over and at the beginning of the season the plan was to compete last year. If they go right up to it because before the season they have no flexibility to acquire anyone. Acquiring a marginally better if at all pitcher prior to the season starting just wasn't worth it. Where does Chapman fit if Hendriks returns? $32.4 million wasn’t enough flexibility? Same place he ended up pitching for both the Royals and Rangers — high leverage / setup. Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: $32.5 million wasn’t enough flexibility? Same place he ended up pitching for both the Royals and Rangers — high leverage / setup. Your number are from the end of 2023 after they traded some of the high salaried pitchers.Thats when they determined the tax. They didn't have that much before the season. A better look is probably the end of 2022 when it was about 14 million. Although even that isn't probably quite accurate. He drops below graveman with the Sox. His better opportunity was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, ptatc said: Your number are from the end of 2023 after they traded some of the high salaried pitchers.Thats when they determined the tax. They didn't have that much before the season. A better look is probably the end of 2022 when it was about 14 million. Although even that isn't probably quite accurate. He drops below graveman with the Sox. His better opportunity was there. The Sox had a $181 million dollar payroll to start the 2023 season, while the initial luxury tax threshold was $233 million for the 2023 season. It was $230 million for the prior 2022 season as well. I’m not seeing how the Sox were ever close to the luxury tax during the entire 2023 season, or the previous 2022 season in which their payroll was even higher. Sources: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/11/white-sox-not-expected-to-match-franchise-record-payroll.html#google_vignette Quote According to Cot’s Baseball Contracts, the ChiSox opened 2023 with roughly $181MM on the books. That’s around $12MM shy of their ’22 figure, the highest in franchise history. https://www.truebluela.com/platform/amp/2023/12/23/23985042/dodgers-payroll-2023-competitive-balance-tax Quote Per the collective bargaining agreement, the initial luxury tax threshold in 2023 was $233 million Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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