Look at Ray Ray Run Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: If this was several years ago when Wrigley was going through its reno and Ricketts determined Wrigley Field was not salvageable, and came up with the same plan. I’m guessing most of the people who think this a good idea for the state, and several of them don’t live in the state so couldn’t crare less how IL spends its tax dollars, would be up in arms. i am a White Sox fan. I think the site is better than the one they are at now. I go to games and this would be closer. I work in the loop, above Union Station and this would be very convenient during the week. Everything about it is great except who pays. It would be shameful to give JR this money with all the things that need fixing in Chicago alone, and while he already has a viable home that he helped design. If the Cubs came up with a plan that wouldn't increase my taxes or add any new taxes, but would siphon money from something that is already being siphoned for a very similar purpose, my guess I wouldn't actually care beyond my standard hating on everything Cubs. This isn't about building a ballpark, it's about developing the land and adding more life to the South Loop and building up the area. Jerry is just benefiting from that, but that's just how this BS works now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I think your view how major projects get done in this country is very lacking. There is literally nothing new or groundbreaking here. Save the outrage for someone else Amazon negotiates massive tax breaks to build humongous, ugly, warehouse distribution centers. They don't pay dollars in taxes for decades while generating massive amounts of revenue. Their workforce that populates these facilities also aren't paid enough to survive so the government subsidizes them with forms of welfare. Every major corporation and developer in the country practices these same tactics. Difference for me? At least this is developing an area for multi-purpose, residential and developing the south loop area in a way that truly is beneficial for people and businesses in the area. Most of these other corporations gets these tax breaks to drive out small business and destroy communities. The outrage over a very standard proposal is amazing to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 16 minutes ago, soxfan18 said: What do the Bulls have to do with this? JR is the head of an entirely separate ownership group for them. The Sox aren't leaving, but in a world where they did, the Bulls wouldn't go with. They're tied to the Hawks through the UC Joint Venture. The loss of the White Sox would significantly reduce the value of Jerry’s RSN. Any new location would generate significantly lower TV revenue, including Nashville, Vegas or Portland. They would likely become a MLB revenue sharing welfare recipient, which would likely please Jerry. Also, what would be left of the remaining RSN owned by the Bulls and Hawks (and CSN if they renew the current pact) would have trouble retaining already declining carriage fees and advertising leverage with a six month Summer hole in their programming. Think the Cubs make enough alone which is why they broke off, and wouldn’t be interested splitting equal shares like the previous arrangement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Amazon negotiates massive tax breaks to build humongous, ugly, warehouse distribution centers. They don't pay dollars in taxes for decades while generating massive amounts of revenue. Their workforce that populates these facilities also aren't paid enough to survive so the government subsidizes them with forms of welfare. Every major corporation and developer in the country practices these same tactics. Difference for me? At least this is developing an area for multi-purpose, residential and developing the south loop area in a way that truly is beneficial for people and businesses in the area. Most of these other corporations gets these tax breaks to drive out small business and destroy communities. The outrage over a very standard proposal is amazing to me. I mean look, is it fair to not like these kinds of deals. It isn't a great system, but it IS the system. We have entire sections of the tax code dedicated to these exact kinds of deals. Literally every major municipality in the country uses these incentives to attract and MAINTAIN business activities in their city. If one random Midwestern City, say one with a population of near 3 million people decided that they would no longer offer these kinds of deals, Literally anywhere else of substance would be lining up to offer these exact deals to them, and this hypothetical random city would quickly bleed out its major businesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 19 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I mean look, is it fair to not like these kinds of deals. It isn't a great system, but it IS the system. We have entire sections of the tax code dedicated to these exact kinds of deals. Literally every major municipality in the country uses these incentives to attract and MAINTAIN business activities in their city. If one random Midwestern City, say one with a population of near 3 million people decided that they would no longer offer these kinds of deals, Literally anywhere else of substance would be lining up to offer these exact deals to them, and this hypothetical random city would quickly bleed out its major businesses. Correct. System is complete garbage but it is what it is, and I'm not going to throw myself in front of the bulldozer because of the city making this type of deal again... especially since for once, I actually like the result! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 40 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I think your view how major projects get done in this country is very lacking. There is literally nothing new or groundbreaking here. Save the outrage for someone else The cities and various teams of SF and LA, are vastly more successful then the Sox. Their respective governments support local business efforts, without obligating taxpayers to fund the capital expenses of private enterprises. Not to mention the Cubs which exist in the same political environment as the Sox, were purchased for less money than the Sox, and are far more successful in every aspect of their business, now worth twice as much. They also fund their own capital projects. That is how successful major projects are done in this country. This is why the Cubs are worth twice as much forty three years later, in the same city. A win win for the entire community. Jerry’s way of doing business is what is very lacking, certainly for the citizens of Chicago and Illinois, and the thousands of White Sox fans left he hasn’t yet chased away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 54 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: My impression would be that a reasonably negotiated plan which fails to come to fruition shouldn't affect future financing of his projects. Failure to pay? Sure. But negotiations fail a lot, as do projects which can't get off of the ground after an agreement is reach, but before ground breaking. Let’s say that Reinsdorf’s demand here isn’t reasonable, that they came up with a billion dollars because he wanted an impressive number to punish the taxpayers, and the government would lose massively if they said yes. If that blew up the deal, would that impact his future financing options? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Let’s say that Reinsdorf’s demand here isn’t reasonable, that they came up with a billion dollars because he wanted an impressive number to punish the taxpayers, and the government would lose massively if they said yes. If that blew up the deal, would that impact his future financing options? I doubt it. It might affect who would negotiate with him, but the quality of the project and his reputation for paying is way more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 24 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: The cities and various teams of SF and LA, are vastly more successful then the Sox. Their respective governments support local business efforts, without obligating taxpayers to fund the capital expenses of private enterprises. Not to mention the Cubs which exist in the same political environment as the Sox, were purchased for less money than the Sox, and are far more successful in every aspect of their business, now worth twice as much. They also fund their own capital projects. That is how successful major projects are done in this country. This is why the Cubs are worth twice as much forty three years later, in the same city. A win win for the entire community. Jerry’s way of doing business is what is very lacking, certainly for the citizens of Chicago and Illinois, and the thousands of White Sox fans left he hasn’t yet chased away. LA, SF, and California are loaded with TIF districts just like the rest of the country. Your statement is blatantly not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: If the Cubs came up with a plan that wouldn't increase my taxes or add any new taxes, but would siphon money from something that is already being siphoned for a very similar purpose, my guess I wouldn't actually care beyond my standard hating on everything Cubs. This isn't about building a ballpark, it's about developing the land and adding more life to the South Loop and building up the area. Jerry is just benefiting from that, but that's just how this BS works now. But this deal doesn't do that. Taxpayers are on the hook for shortages. The debt is going to be well higher than before, and there were shortages. And the sales tax in the 78 pays off JRs Park. Those spots will take away sale from businesses not in the 78 where the sales tac theoretically goes to the greater good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Amazon negotiates massive tax breaks to build humongous, ugly, warehouse distribution centers. They don't pay dollars in taxes for decades while generating massive amounts of revenue. Their workforce that populates these facilities also aren't paid enough to survive so the government subsidizes them with forms of welfare. Every major corporation and developer in the country practices these same tactics. Difference for me? At least this is developing an area for multi-purpose, residential and developing the south loop area in a way that truly is beneficial for people and businesses in the area. Most of these other corporations gets these tax breaks to drive out small business and destroy communities. The outrage over a very standard proposal is amazing to me. Amazon creates jobs. How much greater of a head count would the White Sox have in the South Loop. Vs. Bridgeport? Edited February 17 by Dick Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: LA, SF, and California are loaded with TIF districts just like the rest of the country. Your statement is blatantly not true. Right and the 78 has 500 million TIF. JR wants 1 billion above that. Good luck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Amazon creates jobs. How much greater of a head count would the White Sox have in the South Loop. Vs. Bridgeport? If this whole complex is developed? And the land in Bridgeport is redeveloped? Thousands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: If this whole complex is developed? And the land in Bridgeport is redeveloped? Thousands. Like what? And you really think the White Sox will attravt all this? Why hasn't it happened yet? There's no market for office towers. Residential is saturated. The 78 isn't the only place hoping for some action. Lincoln Yards can't get anything built, and that's probably a more desirable place to live for people living in higher end units. The plan is all a pipe dream or they would finance it themselves. I wouldn't want to live too close to a ballpark. Too much noise and traffic. Look what's going on in Evanston and Wilmette over something lime 6 concerts a year. Plus is almost guaranteed to cost significantly more than they now claim. Who pays that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Just kick the can down the road and GET THIS DONE at ALL COSTS! How naive can Pritzker and Johnson be? Don't they understand this is how it works in this city/state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 3 hours ago, Dick Allen said: Right and the 78 has 500 million TIF. JR wants 1 billion above that. Good luck. Every single stadium in those cities were built with their own funds. The Giants paid off their stadium seven years ago, and more than 20 years after San Francisco and the State of California told the Giants to GTFO when they asked for public subsidies. It's an incredible stadium to attend games, light years ahead of what the Sox slapped up, and what they will ultimately slap up if Jerry has any role on any new project. The developers can't even spell Chicago in their renderings. Meanwhile, the Giants also won three World Series while paying off their mortgage. They hire competent baseball people, not Rick Hahn and Tony La Russa, who is still haunting the franchise like Marley's Ghost. https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/the-att-park-mortgage-is-paid-off#:~:text=The Giants%2C unlike most other,to pay for it themselves. Quote The Giants, unlike most other teams which moved into new stadiums in the past 25 years or so, did not rely on direct public financing. They tried to get it for years, of course, but when the voters, the city of San Francisco and the State of California said no, they decided to pay for it themselves. They ended up with one of baseball’s best-loved and most beautiful parks and, contrary to what the owners who desperately seek public funds will have you believe, they were not harmed competitively speaking. Indeed, rumor has it that they have won three World Series, four pennants and have made the playoffs seven times since moving into the place in 2000. They sell out routinely now too and the Giants are one of the richest teams in the sport 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Balta, Ray Ray and SS2k5 are agreeing on the merits of a stadium development project. That alone should be JR's sales pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said: Every single stadium in those cities were built with their own funds. The Giants paid off their stadium seven years ago, and more than 20 years after San Francisco and the State of California told the Giants to GTFO when they asked for public subsidies. It's an incredible stadium to attend games, light years ahead of what the Sox slapped up, and what they will ultimately slap up if Jerry has any role on any new project. The developers can't even spell Chicago in their renderings. Meanwhile, the Giants also won three World Series while paying off their mortgage. They hire competent baseball people, not Rick Hahn and Tony La Russa, who is still haunting the franchise like Marley's Ghost. https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/the-att-park-mortgage-is-paid-off#:~:text=The Giants%2C unlike most other,to pay for it themselves. Funny you didn't mention Oakland or the LA Raiders... And also, why do you keep associating winning with a successful business project? This just sounds personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 28 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Funny you didn't mention Oakland or the LA Raiders... And also, why do you keep associating winning with a successful business project? This just sounds personal. If you’re giving JR $1 billion plus the TIf, how much are you giving the Bears? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 https://www.sportico.com/business/real-estate/2020/mlbs-san-francisco-giants-break-ground-on-2-5-billion-real-estate-project-1234608057/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: If you’re giving JR $1 billion plus the TIf, how much are you giving the Bears? I am not doing anything and don't particularly care about it. I am more fascinated by the selective outrage than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 It'll never happen but I’d be down to finance this turd of an idea so long as Jerry has to sign a clause saying the Sox will be top 5 in payroll for the life of any agreement he has with the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I am not doing anything and don't particularly care about it. I am more fascinated by the selective outrage than anything. I don’t think it’s selective outrage. I think so,e are really concerned with how their tax dollars are spent, and are probably really skeptical a White Sox ballpark will bring all of the things they claim it will. Again Lincoln Yards would be a more desired spot to live, and they are dormant. They aren’t going to be building office towers. Restaurants? Bars? Maybe a couple, but if no one is living there, they have an 81 day year hike paying rent for 365. Only one team ever has been given what JR is asking for, and that is the Tennessee Titans, and football stadiums more expensive . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grinder Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Of course my cubby friends are all like what the point in giving a loser franchise like the Sox money when nobody goes to games nor does anyone care. Blah blah blah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 1 minute ago, The Grinder said: Of course my cubby friends are all like what the point in giving a loser franchise like the Sox money when nobody goes to games nor does anyone care. Blah blah blah 1 minute ago, The Grinder said: Of course my cubby friends are all like what the point in giving a loser franchise like the Sox money when nobody goes to games nor does anyone care. Blah blah blah They kind of have a point. The Sox and Relateds whole pitch is build the park and everyone will be so excited companies will line up to build apartment towers, office towers, restaurants, bars, retail…it’s kind of funny some actually believe it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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