The Grinder Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: They kind of have a point. The Sox and Relateds whole pitch is build the park and everyone will be so excited companies will line up to build apartment towers, office towers, restaurants, bars, retail…it’s kind of funny some actually believe it. At the end of the day we are still the White Sox:( 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 At a minimum the Sox would have to retire all GRF obligations before retooling the ISFA pipeline for 78 funds. Anything else is simply not acceptable or tolerable to the public. In any event there is not enough funding to also fund Soldier Field and a new Bears project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: Every single stadium in those cities were built with their own funds. The Giants paid off their stadium seven years ago, and more than 20 years after San Francisco and the State of California told the Giants to GTFO when they asked for public subsidies. It's an incredible stadium to attend games, light years ahead of what the Sox slapped up, and what they will ultimately slap up if Jerry has any role on any new project. The developers can't even spell Chicago in their renderings. Meanwhile, the Giants also won three World Series while paying off their mortgage. They hire competent baseball people, not Rick Hahn and Tony La Russa, who is still haunting the franchise like Marley's Ghost. https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/the-att-park-mortgage-is-paid-off#:~:text=The Giants%2C unlike most other,to pay for it themselves. The Giants (Peter McGowan) and the Dolphins (Joe Robbie) are basically the only owners I know of that built their own stadiums with their own money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: They kind of have a point. The Sox and Relateds whole pitch is build the park and everyone will be so excited companies will line up to build apartment towers, office towers, restaurants, bars, retail…it’s kind of funny some actually believe it. Believe what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: Believe what? That if they build it, developers will come… is how I read that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, hi8is said: That if they build it, developers will come… is how I read that. There's good reason to expect this development will happen though. Combine bringing in 2 million people per year for ballgames with a strong location in the city, this should be an area primed for growth if smart development is done. The company Related was noted as having built these sorts of developments in other cities, including New York. In general, they know what they're doing. In numerous other cities, ballparks have been used to drive development in areas by bringing in regular visitors, and that gives a baseline audience for restaurants, bars, hotels, and retail that allows those businesses to bring in other events, exist throughout the year, and draw in larger and larger crowds. If done correctly, this should work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: There's good reason to expect this development will happen though. Combine bringing in 2 million people per year for ballgames with a strong location in the city, this should be an area primed for growth if smart development is done. The company Related was noted as having built these sorts of developments in other cities, including New York. In general, they know what they're doing. In numerous other cities, ballparks have been used to drive development in areas by bringing in regular visitors, and that gives a baseline audience for restaurants, bars, hotels, and retail that allows those businesses to bring in other events, exist throughout the year, and draw in larger and larger crowds. If done correctly, this should work. Would hope for a lot closer to 2.25-2.5 million in attendance, certainly the first 3-5 seasons unless Getz, Boyer and Grifol are still in charge of things. Edited February 18 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinky Stanky Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/8/2024 at 5:38 AM, Dick Allen said: All fine and dandy. Now the big question. Who pays for it? I'm pretty sure I've heard Governor JB say "not us." And I hope he sticks to his guns. And I think your pipe dreams about all the loop workers who now won't hop on the subway for a 10 minute ride to GRF, will be walking to ballgames are just, well, pipe dreams. Besides, the current park is quite serviceable and already well located. Be prepared for another cliffhanger with threats from the team and a romance with an ot-of-town destination except that this time, it just might happen. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Recalling the NB Ryan exit at Roosevelt I have often used. It's like a bad can of spaghetti often backed up even on weekends. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 I'm not even sure why Nashville would want the White Sox...unless their outlook dramatically improved. Back around 2001 when they threatened to contract the Twins, they were a competitive franchise playing in a terrible facility from every perspective but home field advantage in 1987-1991. About the best thing you could say is well executed Cease and Robert trades would put them on the cusp of a Top 5 farm system with a tremendous amount of financial flexibility. Won't use Hahn's "unprecedented" adjective...but easy to imagine Dave Stewart/TLR interests aligning with JR if Chicago stadium declared dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 52 minutes ago, Stinky Stanky said: I'm pretty sure I've heard Governor JB say "not us." And I hope he sticks to his guns. And I think your pipe dreams about all the loop workers who now won't hop on the subway for a 10 minute ride to GRF, will be walking to ballgames are just, well, pipe dreams. Besides, the current park is quite serviceable and already well located. Be prepared for another cliffhanger with threats from the team and a romance with an ot-of-town destination except that this time, it just might happen. If the team decides to threaten to leave once, hand them a printout of the directions. This should be a project where everyone can win. If the Sox need so much money that the governments think they don’t come out solidly on the plus side, then politely wave goodbye. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 6 hours ago, Stinky Stanky said: I'm pretty sure I've heard Governor JB say "not us." And I hope he sticks to his guns. And I think your pipe dreams about all the loop workers who now won't hop on the subway for a 10 minute ride to GRF, will be walking to ballgames are just, well, pipe dreams. Besides, the current park is quite serviceable and already well located. Be prepared for another cliffhanger with threats from the team and a romance with an ot-of-town destination except that this time, it just might happen. There are literally hundreds of companies in Chicago and IL that employ more people and produce more revenue , so make the state more money than the White Sox. I work for one of them. We rent a couple of floors in an office tower. Why doesn’t the state build us something nice and not charge rent? I really don’t think the White Sox have a leg to stand with MLB on moving out of town. It’s not like they have a crumbling stadium,. They have a viable home built to the current owners specifications which has had yearly updates. The South Loop site is better than their current home without a doubt. But for the state to build them another home is beyond silly. If Jerry wants the upgrade, he should pay for it himself. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WBWSF Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 57 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: There are literally hundreds of companies in Chicago and IL that employ more people and produce more revenue , so make the state more money than the White Sox. I work for one of them. We rent a couple of floors in an office tower. Why doesn’t the state build us something nice and not charge rent? I really don’t think the White Sox have a leg to stand with MLB on moving out of town. It’s not like they have a crumbling stadium,. They have a viable home built to the current owners specifications which has had yearly updates. The South Loop site is better than their current home without a doubt. But for the state to build them another home is beyond silly. If Jerry wants the upgrade, he should pay for it himself. I'm just wondering. If the stadium was built and nothing else, what would it cost for just a new stadium?. I'm assuming the billion dollars being asked for is for the total project. I haven't read what the cost of the new stadium would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 3 hours ago, Dick Allen said: There are literally hundreds of companies in Chicago and IL that employ more people and produce more revenue , so make the state more money than the White Sox. I work for one of them. We rent a couple of floors in an office tower. Why doesn’t the state build us something nice and not charge rent? I really don’t think the White Sox have a leg to stand with MLB on moving out of town. It’s not like they have a crumbling stadium,. They have a viable home built to the current owners specifications which has had yearly updates. The South Loop site is better than their current home without a doubt. But for the state to build them another home is beyond silly. If Jerry wants the upgrade, he should pay for it himself. You can't compare your company to a sports franchise. The public persona and impact are totally different. Just like trying to compare the problems between players or coworkers is different when it happens in front of the media. Unless you routinely have the media asking you questions and broadcasting your reposnses. I get you don't want this but that is just not a valid comparison. Plus having something built is a vacant blight of an area adds a whole different dimension to this specific scenario. That is a huge benefit here. Currently the city gets nothing from this area. Even if they make nothing in net revenue, it's a win because of the elimination of the huge negative area. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 12 minutes ago, ptatc said: You can't compare your company to a sports franchise. The public persona and impact are totally different. Just like trying to compare the problems between players or coworkers is different when it happens in front of the media. Unless you routinely have the media asking you questions and broadcasting your reposnses. I get you don't want this but that is just not a valid comparison. Plus having something built is a vacant blight of an area adds a whole different dimension to this specific scenario. That is a huge benefit here. Currently the city gets nothing from this area. Even if they make nothing in net revenue, it's a win because of the elimination of the huge negative area. I'm just imagining the banter between Benetti and Stone in a broadcast of a meeting in a conference room, with breakroom doughnut reviews as filler material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan18 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 3 hours ago, WBWSF said: I'm just wondering. If the stadium was built and nothing else, what would it cost for just a new stadium?. I'm assuming the billion dollars being asked for is for the total project. I haven't read what the cost of the new stadium would be. No, it's for the ballpark. The 'total project' as in the whole 78 will be in the 10s of billions. That's what makes this ask so phony. Related should be able to finance the park, and ultimately, probably will. But of course they'll try to squeeze what they can out of the public 1st. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, ptatc said: You can't compare your company to a sports franchise. The public persona and impact are totally different. Just like trying to compare the problems between players or coworkers is different when it happens in front of the media. Unless you routinely have the media asking you questions and broadcasting your reposnses. I get you don't want this but that is just not a valid comparison. Plus having something built is a vacant blight of an area adds a whole different dimension to this specific scenario. That is a huge benefit here. Currently the city gets nothing from this area. Even if they make nothing in net revenue, it's a win because of the elimination of the huge negative area. The benefit is minimal. Look at all the studies. What is spent there is not spent somewhere else. And if JR get what he wants, you will even get less as the sales tax there would go toward paying down the ballpark debt. The housing market is saturated, hence Lincoln Yards also at a standstill. Taxes are high enough. If you give the Sox what they want, you’ll have to give even more to the Bears. No way the hotel tax can cover it. Not even close. Related can more than fund the whole project with the TIFs. And if the White Sox park is the one thing that makes the rest go, THEY can give JR the sweetheart, near rent free deal he requires. Edited February 18 by Dick Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: The benefit is minimal. Look at all the studies. What is spent there is not spent somewhere else. And if JR get what he wants, you will even get less as the sales tax there would go toward paying down the ballpark debt. The housing market is saturated, hence Lincoln Yards also at a standstill. Taxes are high enough. If you give the Sox what they want, you’ll have to give even more to the Bears. No way the hotel tax can cover it. Not even close. Related can more than fund the whole project with the TIFs. And if the White Sox park is the one thing that makes the rest go, THEY can give JR the sweetheart, near rent free deal he requires. Couple thoughts. This obviously idealistic but if that money doesn’t go towards a stadium, it wouldnt get spent on the public good instead. It’s just a real world fact unfortunately. Also, Bears are still going to Arlington Heights. I’d be shocked by any other outcome. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 14 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: Couple thoughts. This obviously idealistic but if that money doesn’t go towards a stadium, it wouldnt get spent on the public good instead. It’s just a real world fact unfortunately. Also, Bears are still going to Arlington Heights. I’d be shocked by any other outcome. Probably, but it's still Illinois. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 https://soxmachine.com/2024/02/report-white-sox-requesting-1-billion-subsidy-for-new-ballpark/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: https://soxmachine.com/2024/02/report-white-sox-requesting-1-billion-subsidy-for-new-ballpark/ People talk about the initial $399M borrowed for the Bears, or the initial $150M for the Sox, but these combined are about 25% of the over two billion spent and borrowed when you account for significant total expenses involved over the decades. There will be minimum $4-$5 billion paid out in principal, interest and administrative costs if Jerry gets another $1B in loan guarantees, not to mention the half billion plus he wants to raid from TIF Funds and God knows what else he wants to jam through the assembly. Online records only start at 2009 (media should do a FOIA for the rest), and in the past 14 Years (2009-2022). https://www.isfauthority.com/annual-reports-of-isfa/ 14 year Total Expenses: $806M $70.6M (2022); $43.1M (2021); $65.5M (2020); $62.7M (2019); $63.7M (2018); $59.7M (2017); $60.6M (2016); $67.0M (2015); $54.0M (2014); $48.7M (2013); $48.5M (2012); $48.0M (2011) $44.5M (2010); $69.4M (2009) 14 year change Total Liabilities: $44.5 reduction (2009 = $496.7M vs. 2022 = $452.2M) Net Expenses Incurred: $761.5M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) Tell me if you were against Chicago's bid for the 2016 Olympics (supported by Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps, Mayor Daley and opposed by Fox News and the Republican Right) but are now all in on this 78 plan. Give me a break. GRF is not structurally unsound so building an office park with a stadium designed by a Developer (that has never designed a baseball stadium?) seems like a good idea to compete with the Cubs for downtown area residents? Uh no. Oh so let our fan base figure out a way to get to games from Frankfort, New Lenox, Homer Glen, Plainfield, Joliet etc. ... on trains and boats...what a great idea....especially when Southwest suburbanites are probably the largest segment of Sox nation that regularly attend games. My buddies and I have a season ticket package which includes the Opener with Cease pitching. Meanwhile, I am pretty sick about the Related 78 development hype which is all about scoring them a huge windfall on vacant property that no one has wanted to develop for decades. The Sox and most of their fans would be better off if the Sox eventually build on the site of the Original Comiskey and develop the South side of 35th street. My own fan input: It would be great to see renderings from sports stadium architects that incorporate historical design elements and, of course, fan input to build on the site of Old Comiskey. I would love to one up the Cubs by leaving the Left Field bleachers open to downtown and a new street behind the left field wall like Waveland with some commercial/residential rather than sticking a scoreboard there to block views. Instead perhaps a large screen in Center, maybe even a curved screen like a gaming monitor on steroids. Replace some of the ball/ strike/out info with colored circular LED bulbs that mimic the bulbs in the outfield in Fenway...part of a throwback design. Go back to an analog clock on top of the scoreboard and lose the twirly bird spinners which are not original design elements. Ivy? Yes, it is already in CF at GRF (and was something that Veeck was in favor of at Wrigley) so some green elements would be a good idea, especially to cover the large concrete wall along the train tracks. Have bars/restaurants on the South side of 35th with fenced in Patio areas in back of them, and yes, keep all of the rest of the South lots for parking. Tailgating can either be allowed in some lots or not allowed. That is not a deal breaker. Let Related come up with their next idea to pawn off the 78 on someone else. I'm with the City and the State on this. Don't look to the residents of IL to fund something that in many ways, makes no sense whatsoever and is not needed for years to come. Edited February 18 by tray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 One more thing. This hyped up 78 BS is very distracting to the White Sox and their fan base. Reinsdorf needs to sign an extension to keep the Sox on 35th Street so everyone can finally focus on baseball. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Since the Blackout game in 2008, this team has had little success. In fact, this stretch of time is the worst since the Reinsdorf-Einhorn group bought the team. Only in major league sports can an organization be run so badly, and yet it wants something like a new stadium built with public money. GRF was built because JR said he couldn't compete in the old crumbling Comiskey. In little over 30 years since GRF was built, the Sox have been in the playoffs six times, and one of those was in the pandemic-60-game season. Turn the team around first, and then maybe we can talk about a new stadium. And I mean maybe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightly Folded Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 If it’s true, as is now being reported, that Reinsdorf is asking for one billion dollars from the state of Illinois, then this thing is toast or at least toast with regards to the Sox getting a new stadium at the 78. It was an exiting idea while it lasted but this latest development, if true, is the kiss of death. Even if a one billion dollar kick in by the state would reap an eventual windfall for the state, no politician is going to touch or let alone agree to this. Ain’t happening. Turn out the lights please. Next stop……Nashville? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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