Sox looking at building in South Loop

[GREEDY]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It doesn't make it right. The only ones who will make money on this would be the Reinsdorfs and Related. Again, if the stadium is a must, and the develpment nothing but a cash register, why don't they built it themselves.

Who do you want to "make money" other than the guy that owns the land or the guy that owns the team?  

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

It doesn't make it right. The only ones who will make money on this would be the Reinsdorfs and Related. Again, if the stadium is a must, and the develpment nothing but a cash register, why don't they built it themselves.

There is a lot of stuff that isn't "right".  You and I are better off than the vast majority of the country.  Does that stop us from taking advantage of the system to get every single tax deduction and penny at work we can bring in?  It sure doesn't stop me.

[Dick Allen]

42 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

Who do you want to "make money" other than the guy that owns the land or the guy that owns the team?  

 

 

 

I don't want the state to lose. Why not give billions to people and let them spend it at local businesses? Of course that would be considered Socialism and a very bad thing. I don't care if JR makes money on a stadium he built and paid for.He apparently does just fine with the UC I don't mind if the state provides infrastructure. .  Just look at the past, and you can see the future. GRF apparently hasn't generated what JR and the state told us it would. Wintrust Arena didn't generate what we were told it would. The Soldier Field reno was a debacle. Even JR's spring training home, built for free was supposed to be a catalyst for other development. Never happened, now 20% of Glendale's budget is paying off that place. 

 

If we used "that's how it's always done" for everything like so many want to use here, we'd still be living in caves with 20 year lifespans. Change the game.

Edited March 6 by Dick Allen

[cuban_sammiches]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

I don't want the state to lose. Why not give billions to people and let them spend it at local businesses? Of course that would be considered Socialism and a very bad thing. I don't care if JR makes money on a stadium he built and paid for.He apparently does just fine with the UC I don't mind if the state provides infrastructure. .  Just look at the past, and you can see the future. GRF apparently hasn't generated what JR and the state told us it would. Wintrust Arena didn't generate what we were told it would. The Soldier Field reno was a debacle. Even JR's spring training home, built for free was supposed to be a catalyst for other development. Never happened, now 20% of Glendale's budget is paying off that place. 

 

If we used "that's how it's always done" for everything like so many want to use here, we'd still be living in caves with 20 year lifespans. Change the game.

I think economists have concluded that these deals are never a net gain for taxpayers. But politicians across the board have no problem spending other people's money. Trade unions love the idea of thousands of their members having work. The proposed site development could be aesthetically pleasing (versus empty fields). 

[WBWSF]

I read elsewhere that White Sox historian Richard Lindberg wrote an article in  todays Tribune about the JR and the new stadium. Can anybody bring it up?

[Lip Man 1]

45 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I read elsewhere that White Sox historian Richard Lindberg wrote an article in  todays Tribune about the JR and the new stadium. Can anybody bring it up?

I think Rich said it was a Letter to the Editor defending JR, calling Bill Veeck to account and saying if fans don't come out and support the team and if JR doesn't get they new stadium they are moving to Nashville.

Just a few points, and I consider Rich a friend and an excellent Sox historian:

It should be noted that he worked for Veeck but quickly soured on the man and the way he did business which naturally influences his opinions.

When I did a deep interview with Rich for White Sox Interactive back in 2004 or so he was saying the same thing about how they were going to move because of lack of support. Obviously that hasn't happened. 

[dohnut]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

I don't want the state to lose. Why not give billions to people and let them spend it at local businesses? Of course that would be considered Socialism and a very bad thing. I don't care if JR makes money on a stadium he built and paid for.He apparently does just fine with the UC I don't mind if the state provides infrastructure. .  Just look at the past, and you can see the future. GRF apparently hasn't generated what JR and the state told us it would. Wintrust Arena didn't generate what we were told it would. The Soldier Field reno was a debacle. Even JR's spring training home, built for free was supposed to be a catalyst for other development. Never happened, now 20% of Glendale's budget is paying off that place. 

 

If we used "that's how it's always done" for everything like so many want to use here, we'd still be living in caves with 20 year lifespans. Change the game.

We don’t want this to devolve into a political discussion.

But, let’s be honest. Illinois in general - and Chicago in particular - tax the hell out of everyone. Residents, tourists, passersby…

We may as well have a cool stadium complex to show for it.

 

[Lip Man 1]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/editorials/2024/03/05/white-sox-bears-public-subsidies-stadiums-the-78-lakefront-related-midwest-editorial

[SpringfieldFan]

1 hour ago, dohnut said:

We don’t want this to devolve into a political discussion.

But, let’s be honest. Illinois in general - and Chicago in particular - tax the hell out of everyone. Residents, tourists, passersby…

We may as well have a cool stadium complex to show for it.

 

I'm a simpleton but I don't know why I should have to pay for the venue to be built and then pay again to get into it. If the thing makes money, shouldn't it pay for itself?

[LittleHurtCG]

6 minutes ago, SpringfieldFan said:

I'm a simpleton but I don't know why I should have to pay for the venue to be built and then pay again to get into it. If the thing makes money, shouldn't it pay for itself?

The simple truth is that JR doesn't want to pay his fair share. He wants to socialize any potential losses and risk, but he sure as hell isn't gonna share any profits. 

Also, you won't have to pay more than a few bucks to get into the stadium soon anyway. There ain't much demand for what JR is selling these days. 

[dohnut]

43 minutes ago, SpringfieldFan said:

I'm a simpleton but I don't know why I should have to pay for the venue to be built and then pay again to get into it. If the thing makes money, shouldn't it pay for itself?

You're already paying $1M per year for earthworm reproduction research (that's true btw).

There are going to be 2 sides to this forever - and we'll never agree :)...

One is "don't give a cheapskate billionaire owner more money". One is "you're pissing away our money anyway - let's get a cool park on the lake".  

[tray]

" Chicago’s office vacancy rate ticked slightly higher last quarter, setting another record and prolonging a slump that started when the pandemic hit.  

The vacancy rate reached 23.8 percent in the final months of 2023, up from 23.7 percent in the previous quarter, Crain’s reported, citing data from CBRE.

Office vacancy records have been set in 11 of the last 13 quarters, highlighting the persisting challenges brought on by the remote-work era, which have prompted a slew of companies to undergo layoffs and reduce their footprint. "

https://therealdeal.com/chicago/2024/01/11/chicago-office-vacancies-rise-to-another-record-high/

[Lip Man 1]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bears/2024/03/06/bears-white-sox-financial-partners-jerry-reinsdorf-george-mccaskey-new-stadiums-taxes

[77 Hitmen]

12 hours ago, GREEDY said:

I'm not sure that the average Sox fan understands that when "these greedy billionaires" ask for "money", they are usually asking for a partial sales, property and use tax rebate (often times upfront) that the stadium will generate.

This is common with tons of new construction.  Guys that build even the most innocuous projects want incentives. 

A suburb gave me free land and a 30 year property tax abatement to build my business there. They approached me with the idea. 

They aren't filming half of the television content in Chicago because Hollywood likes deep dish.  

Just a heads up, not saying Jerry isn't an asshole, but this is standard operating procedure, especially when you don't even want a new stadium, just a new lease on the current stadium.  

 

11 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

This happens everywhere in the US every single day, people just don't pay attention to it. 

I'm not sure why Sox fans want the Sox to be the one "line in the sand" stand against public funding for sports stadiums.  There's other stadiums that are funded by an increase in sales tax, which IMO is much worse than extending an existing 2% hotel tax that'll still be there whether the Sox build a new park or not.  

Well, I think I know why.....because JR is a greedy, horrible, tone-deaf owner who already played the relocation card to get a new stadium once and then helped botch the design of said stadium.  And I totally agree with that sentiment.  But, I'll be a Sox fan long after Jerry has left this world and I think a South Loop ballpark would be great for the franchise in a post-Reinsdorf era.  IMO, I hope they make Jerry pay a significant portion of this project (since his family and shareholders will get a huge bump in franchise value if this park is built) and a deal gets done to make this happen.

Oh, and I'm no fan of the McCaskeys either.  They're worse than Reinsdorf IMO.  At least he built his own fortune and didn't just inherit it from his Grandpa.  They've arguably run the Bears worse than he's run the Sox over the last 30 years, which is no small feat.  And that 2002 Solider Field deal is much worse for the taxpayers than the 1988 New Comiskey deal was.  There's $200M MORE owed on Solider Field now than when the renovated stadium opened 20 years ago!

Edited March 7 by 77 Hitmen

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, 77 Hitmen said:

 

I'm not sure why Sox fans want the Sox to be the one "line in the sand" stand against public funding for sports stadiums.  There's other stadiums that are funded by an increase in sales tax, which IMO is much worse than extending an existing 2% hotel tax that'll still be there whether the Sox build a new park or not.  

Well, I think I know why.....because JR is a greedy, horrible, tone-deaf owner who already played the relocation card to get a new stadium once and then helped botch the design of said stadium.  And I totally agree with that sentiment.  But, I'll be a Sox fan long after Jerry has left this world and I think South Loop ballpark will be great for the franchise in a post-Reinsdorf era.  IMO, I hope they make Jerry pay a significant portion of this project (since his family and shareholders will get a huge bump in franchise value if this park is built) and a deal gets done to make this happen.

Oh, and I'm no fan of the McCaskeys either.  They're worse than Reinsdorf IMO.  At least he built his own fortune and didn't just inherit it from his Grandpa.  They've arguably run the Bears worse than he's run the Sox over the last 30 years, which is no small feat.  And that 2002 Solider Field deal is much worse for the taxpayers than the 1988 New Comiskey deal was.  There's $200M MORE owed on Solider Field now than when the renovated stadium opened 20 years ago!

I hope JR is forced to pay his fair share as well but he can just as easily say no, period, end of story.

Then what?

I think eventually he will give in and hold his nose and pay something but he is pretty stubborn and arrogant. The time element is also in play, I don't expect this to be settled for another few years at least, it's possible, (though unlikely) MLB has already awarded the Nashville franchise to Dave Stewart and TLR by then. That story in Sports Illustrated last month, maybe two months ago, outlined in detail how far along talks between Manfred and Stewart have progressed. How MLB badly wants a franchise primarily owned and staffed with minority hires.

If Nashville is off the table, JR's threat disappears like mist in the wind. 

[cuban_sammiches]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

 

If Nashville is off the table, JR's threat disappears like mist in the wind. 

Leaving only that cool leather jacket he wore down in Springfield...blowing empty in the wind...

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, cuban_sammiches said:

Leaving only that cool leather jacket he wore down in Springfield...blowing empty in the wind...

“Our current ballpark will never be profitable.  We need one billion to fund our new ballpark.  Damn cheap Sox fans…”

[South Side Hit Men]

I don't see any expansion franchises even awarded until the end of Manfred's term, if ever.

First you need two credibly financed groups who can cover the $2B expansion fee plus several hundred million more to credibly fund a franchise. With the remaining markets out there, it's like picking over produce at Butera.

Second, you need to find two sucker municipalities with a half billion to a billion plus minimum to piss away. Apparently the Mormons pulled the trigger on some tax scheme, but good luck entering a market a third smaller than Milwaukee with no baseball history trying to sell about four times of the ticket inventory of the Jazz.

Third, the RSN scam has run it's course, with a majority of the teams already hat in hand and any open markets likely grabbing an over the air TV contract for far less revenue, necessitating even more revenue sharing.

MLB is better contracting to 24-26 teams to gain a much higher split of the annual revenue without handing a half billion plus to the Fishers and Nittings and Dolans and other billionaire MLB welfare recipients, while still keeping a few municipalities around who might be able to support stadium welfare with a decent fan base.

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

Saw this in the Washington Post this morning:

 

Va. lawmakers to remove arena from budget, blocking Youngkin’s best shot for it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/03/06/virginia-arena-budget-removed-youngkin/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F3cfd8ae%2F65e9f6ed0fa79a3a2e7f89b2%2F656f5633386724493aa28bcb%2F29%2F54%2F65e9f6ed0fa79a3a2e7f89b2

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Saw this in the Washington Post this morning:

 

Va. lawmakers to remove arena from budget, blocking Youngkin’s best shot for it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/03/06/virginia-arena-budget-removed-youngkin/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F3cfd8ae%2F65e9f6ed0fa79a3a2e7f89b2%2F656f5633386724493aa28bcb%2F29%2F54%2F65e9f6ed0fa79a3a2e7f89b2

Apparently they don't know how these things get done. They are supposed to roll over and give the dufuses  with money whatever they want.

Edited March 7 by Dick Allen

[GREEDY]

On 3/6/2024 at 5:59 PM, 77 Hitmen said:

 

I'm not sure why Sox fans want the Sox to be the one "line in the sand" stand against public funding for sports stadiums.  There's other stadiums that are funded by an increase in sales tax,

Exactly, all kinds of new construction has been partially funded by incentives.  Your local Starbucks probably has.  Your local crappy art museum definitely has.  Your local damn Amazon warehouse is probably getting perks.

Why do we want the White Sox to not get any incentives? 

 

[Highland]

On 3/6/2024 at 10:46 AM, WBWSF said:

I read elsewhere that White Sox historian Richard Lindberg wrote an article in  todays Tribune about the JR and the new stadium. Can anybody bring it up?

For a long time, Lindberg had repeated the White Sox "blame the fan" routine. He is as tone-deaf as Reinsdorf.

[Snopek]

1 hour ago, GREEDY said:

Exactly, all kinds of new construction has been partially funded by incentives.  Your local Starbucks probably has.  Your local crappy art museum definitely has.  Your local damn Amazon warehouse is probably getting perks.

Why do we want the White Sox to not get any incentives? 

 

Local art museums out here catching strays.

[Dick Allen]

I saw a letter to the editor that makes too much sense to happen. Have the Sox play a couple of seasons in Wrigley. If they don't draw, it might not be the ballpark or it's surroundings fault. It might just be the team itself.

[Snopek]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I saw a letter to the editor that makes too much sense to happen. Have the Sox play a couple of seasons in Wrigley. If they don't draw, it might not be the ballpark or it's surroundings fault. It might just be the team itself.

I feel like there would be a lot of "I ain't setting foot in that shithole" type meatball sentiments from some Sox fans, which would affect how they draw.