Sox looking at building in South Loop

[77 Hitmen]

On 3/31/2024 at 8:37 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

You'd think JR would understand a basic principal in sports, winning solves a lot of problems including attendance but that takes building a real organization and spending the money needed to bring in talent at all levels. That may mean going in the red for several years until that has been established and he is so risk aversive he refuses to even consider this.  (That may be because with all the national and international revenue streams for MLB he doesn't have to do anything to make money)

History has shown when the Sox are winning (and by that I just mean putting a competitive club on the field) they draw well.

They were the first franchise, not the Cubs, in Chicago to draw over two million for a season. When they put together years where they were in the hunt under his ownership 1981-1985, 1990-1994 and 2000-2006 they drew well.

Unfortunately, that's the way Jerry has operated the White Sox pretty much from day 1 and the result is that the Sox have had one of the worst post-season track records in the expanded playoff era of the last 30 years.  Number of post-season appearances, number of years where they won at least 1 playoff series, etc - the Sox rank near the bottom.   Penny wise and pound foolish is how this team operates.

Now, that being said, two things can be (and IMO are) true:  The Sox would draw well if they fielded teams that made the playoffs often and were able to advance at least more than once during JR's entire 43 year ownership.   At the same time, IMO the Sox would be a better draw at The 78 than at 35th & Shields over the long haul through ups and downs of team performance.   The current park is simply never going to get the love outside of the die-hard Sox fan base enough to broaden interest in this team.  At best, people outside the core fan base see the park and location as "meh" and that's not going to change.  

And for those who argue that location won't matter as long as Reinsdorf owns the team.  Well, he is 88.  Ownership change is coming within the next 10 years and probably sooner than that.  

[Lip Man 1]

KC rejects stadium tax

Last night, Kansas City voters overwhelmingly denied a sales tax that would’ve kept the Chiefs and Royals in the metropolitan area for the next 25 years. The tax would’ve provided about $2 billion to help renovate Arrowhead Stadium and build a new Royals stadium. Both Chiefs and Royals owners don’t appear to have a Plan B right now.

[A-Train to 35th]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

KC rejects stadium tax

Last night, Kansas City voters overwhelmingly denied a sales tax that would’ve kept the Chiefs and Royals in the metropolitan area for the next 25 years. The tax would’ve provided about $2 billion to help renovate Arrowhead Stadium and build a new Royals stadium. Both Chiefs and Royals owners don’t appear to have a Plan B right now.

I say we let Jerry move the team to Nashville and let the Mc Caskey's build the Arlington Bears a new home in Arlington Heights on the condition that the we get the Royals and the Chiefs to relocate to Chicago.

Here's the Chiefs redesign that lost out to the voters who don't want any new taxes.

https://www.chiefs.com/stadium/concepts

[Paulie4Pres]

2 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

I say we let Jerry move the team to Nashville and let the Mc Caskey's build the Arlington Bears a new home in Arlington Heights on the condition that the we get the Royals and the Chiefs to relocate to Chicago.

Here's the Chiefs redesign that lost out to the voters who don't want any new taxes.

https://www.chiefs.com/stadium/concepts

Why should taxpayers pay for stadiums for billionaires? Especially in this day and age where fewer and fewer people follow sports? f*** these billionaires. Build your own damn stadiums.

[CentralChamps21]

3 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

I say we let Jerry move the team to Nashville and let the Mc Caskey's build the Arlington Bears a new home in Arlington Heights on the condition that the we get the Royals and the Chiefs to relocate to Chicago.

Here's the Chiefs redesign that lost out to the voters who don't want any new taxes.

https://www.chiefs.com/stadium/concepts

Time for Northwest Indiana to land its football team.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

I say we let Jerry move the team to Nashville and let the Mc Caskey's build the Arlington Bears a new home in Arlington Heights on the condition that the we get the Royals and the Chiefs to relocate to Chicago.

Here's the Chiefs redesign that lost out to the voters who don't want any new taxes.

https://www.chiefs.com/stadium/concepts

They don’t call it the Show Me state for no reason…in this case, the private and ownership contributions.

58-42% vote against a veritable football dynasty/Hunt family.

Although it would have been closer to 50/50 with the Royals stripped out of the package.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Paulie4Pres said:

Why should taxpayers pay for stadiums for billionaires? Especially in this day and age where fewer and fewer people follow sports? f*** these billionaires. Build your own damn stadiums.

The Giants and Dolphins did it so it can be done. The bulk of the money involved came from McGowan and Robbie. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The Giants and Dolphins did it so it can be done. The bulk of the money involved came from McGowan and Robbie. 

Kroenke/LA as well.

Thought this pretty well encapsulated the feelings at Royals' Review.

I never thought this would pass and I am pleased that it got soundly trounced, both for Jackson Countians, and for taxpayers in other places to give a warning shot across the bow to any other owners of sports franchises in other cities contemplating attempting to fleece the taxpayers wherever they might be located. I was never able to envision this passing when the initiative in 2006 barely did, as well as the other one that day failing, for a facility the county already owned. Throw in that the need for a new facility is completely dubious, at best, and that they used made up rationale with no engineering studies to support that complete nonsense. Or that the Royals tacitly threatened to use eminent domain to see this through if they had to. The Royals really need to get a copy of and thoroughly read Norman Vincent Peale's "How to Win Friends and Influence People". Even if they had conducted this in as forthright a manner as they could, this was always going to be a very tough sell no matter what. They got what they deserved, given the way that they conducted this endeavor, which was a living breathing self-advertisement for why their franchise is arguably currently one of the worst in all of professional sports.

 

This is but the first battle here and this is not over. I remain steadfastly opposed to giving public money to sports franchises under any set of circumstances. If they try to put lipstick on this pig and try again, it looks to me like the citizenry pretty clearly sees the pig that's underneath, already.

 

Thank you, Jackson Countians, for repudiating these grifters and seeing through their complete line of BS. The Royals can spend their own goddamn money if they want this so bad. If it made any real economic sense, they'd be doing that with absolutely no qualms whatsoever. It doesn't, and they thought the voters were stupid sheep. They thought wrong.

 

A final note, one of the funniest things about this whole thing is the amount of money they spent trying to get this passed that was basically just pissed away because they are freaking morons. They might as well just had a bonfire with that pile of cash. The whole undertaking deserves it's own special page at https://darwinawards.com/

[caulfield12]

It should also be noted that when the Twins were blocked in every direction trying to get their new stadium...no's in every direction until Hennepin County stepped in.

There's always another county or state, right?

But we most definitely don't want the condition attached that JR and son couldn't sell or move the team until 2040 (that condition placed on the Pohlad family in Minn) because that future right now seems even more depressing to consider than the team actually moving.

 

At any rate...

So here we are now with the Royals/White Sox featuring quite similar stadiums...as well as target dates to end their leases...White Sox hilariously modeled on the bungling KC Way.

God knows how this all shakes out on the next five years or so.

A's/Vegas/Oakland Nashville Rays/Marlins, etc.

Manfred will be kept pretty pretty busy.

Edited April 3 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

42 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Kroenke/LA as well.

Thought this pretty well encapsulated the feelings at Royals' Review.

I never thought this would pass and I am pleased that it got soundly trounced, both for Jackson Countians, and for taxpayers in other places to give a warning shot across the bow to any other owners of sports franchises in other cities contemplating attempting to fleece the taxpayers wherever they might be located. I was never able to envision this passing when the initiative in 2006 barely did, as well as the other one that day failing, for a facility the county already owned. Throw in that the need for a new facility is completely dubious, at best, and that they used made up rationale with no engineering studies to support that complete nonsense. Or that the Royals tacitly threatened to use eminent domain to see this through if they had to. The Royals really need to get a copy of and thoroughly read Norman Vincent Peale's "How to Win Friends and Influence People". Even if they had conducted this in as forthright a manner as they could, this was always going to be a very tough sell no matter what. They got what they deserved, given the way that they conducted this endeavor, which was a living breathing self-advertisement for why their franchise is arguably currently one of the worst in all of professional sports.

 

This is but the first battle here and this is not over. I remain steadfastly opposed to giving public money to sports franchises under any set of circumstances. If they try to put lipstick on this pig and try again, it looks to me like the citizenry pretty clearly sees the pig that's underneath, already.

 

Thank you, Jackson Countians, for repudiating these grifters and seeing through their complete line of BS. The Royals can spend their own goddamn money if they want this so bad. If it made any real economic sense, they'd be doing that with absolutely no qualms whatsoever. It doesn't, and they thought the voters were stupid sheep. They thought wrong.

 

A final note, one of the funniest things about this whole thing is the amount of money they spent trying to get this passed that was basically just pissed away because they are freaking morons. They might as well just had a bonfire with that pile of cash. The whole undertaking deserves it's own special page at https://darwinawards.com/

I'm willing to guarantee that if former Gov. Quinn's suggestion to put the Sox/Bears stadium issues on the November ballot comes to pass it will be soundly beaten by the public. (I'm guessing the McCaskey family and JR already know the results from Kansas City and will do everything in their power to prevent that from happening as in getting a public vote.)

[77 Hitmen]

3 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The Giants and Dolphins did it so it can be done. The bulk of the money involved came from McGowan and Robbie. 

Heck, if the Royals can say they're proposing to provide $1B in private funding toward a new baseball stadium, then why can't Jerry commit to at least that amount?

If JR came out and said he'd provide $1B in private funding toward the ballpark, my guess is that a stadium deal would very likely get approved by the state legislature.    

Edited April 4 by 77 Hitmen

[NO!!MARY!!!]

On 4/3/2024 at 7:13 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

I'm willing to guarantee that if former Gov. Quinn's suggestion to put the Sox/Bears stadium issues on the November ballot comes to pass it will be soundly beaten by the public. (I'm guessing the McCaskey family and JR already know the results from Kansas City and will do everything in their power to prevent that from happening as in getting a public vote.)

I say you’re half right-for the Bears, it would pass overwhelmingly. For the Sox, it will be soundly defeated. It will be interesting if the ballot has them listed as one vote for both, not a separate vote for each. 

Edited April 5 by NO!!MARY!!!
Fix a word

[caulfield12]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/voters-no-stadiums-professional-sports-040212339.html

[46DidIt]

If a team averaged 2 million attendance for 20 years, 2 billion would only be fifty dollars for every ticket sold. Seems reasonable

[HoosierSox]

In other news, A's are moving to a 10,000 seat minor league stadium they won't fill.

 

[77 Hitmen]

16 hours ago, NO!!MARY!!! said:

I say you’re half right-for the Bears, it was pass overwhelmingly. For the Sox, it will be soundly defeated. It will be interesting if the ballot has them listed as one vote for both, not a separate vote for each. 

According to this article, this would be the text of the proposed ballot measure:  "Shall the people of Chicago provide any taxpayer subsidies to the Chicago Bears or Chicago White Sox in order to build a new stadium or real estate development?,"

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-politics/referendum-for-royals-chiefs-stadiums-fails-as-bears-white-sox-seek-public-funds/3400874/

Note that they only mention this being on the ballot in the city, not statewide.  Also, I read this to mean that, if it was on the ballot and it passed, it would reject ANY amount of public funding even for infrastructure toward real estate development at the stadium sites.  That's pretty strict and with no room for compromise.  What if (and I realize it's a huge IF) JR agreed to foot the bill for the entire baseball stadium?   Even in that scenario, no public money at all - not one cent - could be spent on things like moving the Metra tracks, extending the Riverwalk, or building a new Red Line subway stop at 15th and Clark.  

You're right that if the Bears and Sox were separated, the Bears could very well pass while the Sox measure would almost certainly fail.  Heck, even some die-hard Sox fans are saying NOT ONE DIME! and some are even practically rooting for the team to move to Nashville before one red cent public cent is spent on The 78.       

Edited April 4 by 77 Hitmen

[tray]

Why would any sports team invest a Billion dollars without owning the underlying and surrounding real estate?

If when you understand the dynamics of Related's 78 proposals,what they have been trying to do will become obvious.

 

 

[Paulie4Pres]

20 minutes ago, tray said:

Why would any sports team invest a Billion dollars without owning the underlying and surrounding real estate?

If when you understand the dynamics of Related's 78 proposals,what they have been trying to do will become obvious.

 

 

 

Why should taxpayers pay for a stadium for a team they don't give a f*** about, that has never shown they are actually serious about winning?

[tray]

2 hours ago, Paulie4Pres said:

 

Why should taxpayers pay for a stadium for a team they don't give a f*** about, that has never shown they are actually serious about winning?

 It is hard to remain competitive when management and scouts make very poor decisions year after year. There was no reason to trade Cease at this point as the most recent example. Without him the rotation is really awful.

[WhiteSox2023]

12 minutes ago, tray said:

 It is hard to remain competitive when management and scouts make very poor decisions year after year. There was no reason to trade Cease at this point as the most recent example. Without him the rotation is really awful.

Cuz Jerry’s cheap ass was never going to extend him and didn’t want to pay him $12+ million for his final season (2025) in a Sox uniform.  Did you not know the answer to your own question before you made this post?

[NO!!MARY!!!]

7 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said:

According to this article, this would be the text of the proposed ballot measure:  "Shall the people of Chicago provide any taxpayer subsidies to the Chicago Bears or Chicago White Sox in order to build a new stadium or real estate development?,"

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-politics/referendum-for-royals-chiefs-stadiums-fails-as-bears-white-sox-seek-public-funds/3400874/

  

You're right that if the Bears and Sox were separated, the Bears could very well pass while the Sox measure would almost certainly fail.  Heck, even some die-hard Sox fans are saying NOT ONE DIME! and some are even practically rooting for the team to move to Nashville before one red cent public cent is spent on The 78.       

Please don’t remind me of that. It’s as if they think JR will live forever. I don’t think it is a coincidence that the rooters are some of the most chronically insufferable, obnoxious jags you’ll ever see on social media, people who seem to get off on the team’s failures and love to bully and abuse the more optimistic, hopeful fans. 

Edited April 5 by NO!!MARY!!!

[WhiteSox2023]

4 hours ago, tray said:

Why would any sports team invest a Billion dollars without owning the underlying and surrounding real estate?

If when you understand the dynamics of Related's 78 proposals,what they have been trying to do will become obvious.

 

 

Why would any state or taxpayers invest in a pathetic loser like Jerry Reinsdorf who has no desire to field a competitive team?

[77 Hitmen]

The Bears hold their first meeting with the ISFA on their lakefront stadium plan:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bears/2024/04/04/bears-new-stadium-illinois-sports-facilities-authority-white-sox-south-loop-funding

“Both teams appear to understand that the continuation of the 2% hotel tax is unlikely to pay for two new stadiums and pay off the legacy [outstanding] stadium debt,” Bilecki told the Sun-Times.

“Which, I assume, is part of the ongoing discussion between the teams. That’s up to them to try and figure out. ... It’s the million-dollar question. We’ve got to wait to see what they propose.”

[tray]

That piece of land near the lakefront would be a nice location for the WSox.

 

[JoeC]

Can we put a ballot measure out there that, for 30% of the cost of a stadium, we'd waive the capital gains tax on the next Sox sale?

Then watch Jerry cash in, tax-free, to someone rich AND (hopefully) competent?