Sox looking at building in South Loop

[Lip Man 1]

14 minutes ago, Lightly Folded said:

The Sox stadium at the 78 is dead, unless Jerry and some compadres tote the entire cost of the endeavor which is not going to happen. The bigger problem is that the state of Illinois does not make money on the current Sox deal but rather lose money to the White Sox every year. Therefore, there is no guarantee that the state of Illinois would, or could negotiate another extension when the current one expires without infuriating, the taxpayers of Illinois. Jerry would have to agree to paying the state as opposed to the state paying Jerry and that’s not going to happen. The White Sox may very well wind up without any ballpark to play in when the current lease expires. At least no place locally.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Guaranteed Rate Field especially after the millions and millions of dollars were spent on renovations changing the mistakes that were made in the original construction because JR insisted on them. And once again he was dead wrong. 

[Lightly Folded]

8 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Guaranteed Rate Field especially after the millions and millions of dollars were spent on renovations changing the mistakes that were made in the original construction because JR insisted on them. And once again he was dead wrong. 

The only thing that is wrong with guaranteed rate Field is where it’s located. The bigger problem is that the state of Illinois can no longer afford to pay Jerry to stay there and therefore a renewal (or extension) is impossible. The state does not make money on guaranteed rate field, but rather loses money. Jerry will never agree to a deal whereby he would have to pay the state to continue to play at guaranteed rate field. Nor would a new owner.

[77 Hitmen]

8 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Read a story in the Tribune this morning, the Bears stadium issue will not be discussed by the state legislature this spring session. It is now off the table until the fall.

Story quoted a representative as saying that was good. More time was needed to examine every aspect.

Also apparently now there is a movement that any state funds that may go to either the Bears or White Sox must also include funding for a women's sports stadium which will complicate the situation even more than it already is. 

When you say "women's sports stadium", do you mean soccer or basketball?  If we're talking about soccer, didn't the proposed South Loop renderings also show GRF being converted to a soccer stadium?   If the Sox do move to a new park, seems the obvious solution is to make the current park the new home of the Fire and the Red Stars.  

Edited May 27 by 77 Hitmen

[77 Hitmen]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

I saw my heavy duty White Sox contact Friday.He said they are definitely not renewing the lease at the present stadium.A new White Sox stadium will be built in the Chicagoland area. And it might not be in the  South Loop.  It should be worked out by the end of the year. We shall see.

If they're not going to move to Lot 78, IMO they may as well stay at 35th and Shields.  I can't think of any available land that would be a better option for the Sox.  Any suburban location would be a TERRIBLE idea.  

I have thought all along that, once the state officially tells Jerry to take a hike on public funding for a new Sox stadium and he exhausts efforts to squeeze money out of the state, he'll somehow find a way to come up with something around $1B in private financing to make a new stadium happen.  That should cover most, if not all, of the cost of a new ballpark itself minus infrastructure work at the site.   A new stadium would give a huge boost to the franchise's value, so he'll be motivated to make it happen.   Jerry didn't become a billionaire in real estate by disclosing how much he's willing to pay right off the bat before engaging in negotiations.   

 

[Lip Man 1]

30 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

When you say "women's sports stadium", do you mean soccer or basketball?  If we're talking about soccer, didn't the proposed South Loop renderings also show GRF being converted to a soccer stadium?   If the Sox do move to a new park, seems the obvious solution is to make the current park the new home of the Fire and the Red Stars.  

The Tribune story did not specify, it simply said "any stadium funding discussions should include professional women's (plural) teams." (direct quote) The story quoted another state politician as saying stadium discussions should include the Red Stars and the Sky.

An update to the story this afternoon also quoted that state politician as saying there would also be no discussion on a White Sox stadium until the fall.   

Here is the link to the story for all who can access it:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2024/05/25/legislature-wont-act-on-bears-stadium-funding-request-this-spring-lawmakers-say/

Key quote:

”I don’t think there’s necessarily an appetite to just give billionaires a whole bunch of money,” Sen. Robert Peters (D) said. 

Edited May 27 by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

7 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The Tribune story did not specify, it simply said "any stadium funding discussions should include professional women's (plural) teams." (direct quote) The story quoted another state politician as saying stadium discussions should include the Red Stars and the Sky.

An update to the story this afternoon also quoted that state politician as saying there would also be no discussion on a White Sox stadium until the fall.   

Here is the link to the story for all who can access it:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2024/05/25/legislature-wont-act-on-bears-stadium-funding-request-this-spring-lawmakers-say/

Key quote:

”I don’t think there’s necessarily an appetite to just give billionaires a whole bunch of money,” Sen. Robert Peters (D) said. 

A (retractable) domed stadium if you're talking basketball...then.

Wintrust is what, just around 10,000?

Of course, a domed stadium would double or triple the projected cost, right?

Edited May 27 by caulfield12

[bobbydanks]

i also looked at a building in the south loop 

[The Mighty Mite]

9 hours ago, Lightly Folded said:

The only thing that is wrong with guaranteed rate Field is where it’s located. The bigger problem is that the state of Illinois can no longer afford to pay Jerry to stay there and therefore a renewal (or extension) is impossible. The state does not make money on guaranteed rate field, but rather loses money. Jerry will never agree to a deal whereby he would have to pay the state to continue to play at guaranteed rate field. Nor would a new owner.

You put GRF at 78 facing northeast with great views of the skyline and it automatically becomes one of the better parks in MLB.

[77 Hitmen]

22 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The Tribune story did not specify, it simply said "any stadium funding discussions should include professional women's (plural) teams." (direct quote) The story quoted another state politician as saying stadium discussions should include the Red Stars and the Sky.

An update to the story this afternoon also quoted that state politician as saying there would also be no discussion on a White Sox stadium until the fall.   

Here is the link to the story for all who can access it:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2024/05/25/legislature-wont-act-on-bears-stadium-funding-request-this-spring-lawmakers-say/

Key quote:

”I don’t think there’s necessarily an appetite to just give billionaires a whole bunch of money,” Sen. Robert Peters (D) said. 

Couldn't the Sky be accommodated at the United Center if the Wintrust Arena is too small for the growing interest in the WNBA?  The WNBA and NBA/NHL seasons barely overlap, if at all.  And as I said earlier, if the Sox get a new park and GRF is converted to a soccer stadium, that would address the issue with the Red Stars.

I think the only person who thought funding for a new Sox stadium would be approved this spring was Jerry Reinsdorf.  I don't think it'll be settled this fall either other than a flat out rejection.  

[Lip Man 1]

Just now, 77 Hitmen said:

Couldn't the Sky be accommodated at the United Center if the Wintrust Arena is too small for the growing interest in the WNBA?  The WNBA and NBA/NHL seasons barely overlap, if at all.  And as I said earlier, if the Sox get a new park and GRF is converted to a soccer stadium, that would address the issue with the Red Stars.

I think the only person who thought funding for a new Sox stadium would be approved this spring was Jerry Reinsdorf.  I don't think it'll be settled this fall either other than a flat out rejection.  

I seem to recall that at one time the NBA/WNBA went to JR and asked if he'd be interested in owning a team.

He had no desire to get involved and if what I remember is true actively worked against a WNBA coming to Chicago for a long time.

If that is true I'm guessing he would not allow the Sky to play in the United Center. 

[77 Hitmen]

On 5/26/2024 at 7:18 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Guaranteed Rate Field especially after the millions and millions of dollars were spent on renovations changing the mistakes that were made in the original construction because JR insisted on them. And once again he was dead wrong. 

Disagree.  The facility itself is fine, but the location isn't.  That's been the issue all along.  And yes, I understand that many diehards love the current location because the park is right off the expressway and surrounded by acres of parking.  But that setup doesn't work for sports stadiums anymore.

Unless the Sox can successfully develop the area around GRF into an entertainment district, then they'll continue to be plagued by anemic attendance except for years where they have a loaded team that makes multiple playoff appearances.  Maybe the Sox (at least a post-Jerry owner) will be able to develop the current park in such a way.  I have my doubts, but that's one thing that could address chronic attendance issues.  

And yes, I know this would go away if the Sox could just build a perennial pennant contender.  Easier said than done.  How many franchises have been able to consistently do that?  Maybe half a dozen?  Not everyone is able to replicate what the Braves have done.

14 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

You put GRF at 78 facing northeast with great views of the skyline and it automatically becomes one of the better parks in MLB.

While that would be nice, I think its effect at the current location is a bit overstated.  The skyline is a ways in the distance from 35th St.  Nothing like the eye-popping view they'd have at Lot 78.  If the Sox were able to magically rotate the current park 90 degrees tomorrow, it get applause from fans and critics, but I doubt it would be a game changer in drawing fans to the park.  It's not so much the view as the proximity to other things to do.

Today's economic reality is that teams need things around their ballpark to draw people to games.  Other teams see this:  Braves, Cardinals, Mets, Phillies, Royals.  Sure, someone will say "what about the Dodgers".  Well, that's an elite franchise playing in a 20M people megapolis.  Man, I wish the Sox were at the Dodgers' level of eliteness.  

Edited May 28 by 77 Hitmen

[77 Hitmen]

14 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I seem to recall that at one time the NBA/WNBA went to JR and asked if he'd be interested in owning a team.

He had no desire to get involved and if what I remember is true actively worked against a WNBA coming to Chicago for a long time.

If that is true I'm guessing he would not allow the Sky to play in the United Center. 

Thanks for that background.  That certainly sounds like Jerry.

I suppose lawmakers could insist that the Sky be allowed to play at the UC as part of any new stadium deal for the Sox.

 

[caulfield12]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-sky-and-wnba/2022/5/1/23048436/sky-franchise-history-wnba-championship-vandersloot-candace-parker-elena-delle-donne

 

Basically, JR didn't want to take any attention or resources away from the Bulls in the late 90's...of course, that all changed rather dramatically.

One of the things that always surprised me was that one of the founders of City Year (like AmeriCorps/Peace Corps/*Vista/Teach for America) would get involved in a for-profit business adventure.

Of course, there's a parallel history with the Bulls and Sky.  Eventually losing almost all of their star players to other teams, AND an inability to attract premier free agents.

That won't change without having their own dedicated practice facility like other teams such as LV and Seattle have invested millions of dollars into.

Edited May 28 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, 77 Hitmen said:

Disagree.  The facility itself is fine, but the location isn't.  That's been the issue all along.  And yes, I understand that many diehards love the current location because the park is right off the expressway and surrounded by acres of parking.  But that setup doesn't work for sports stadiums anymore.

Unless the Sox can successfully develop the area around GRF into an entertainment district, then they'll continue to be plagued by anemic attendance except for years where they have a loaded team that makes multiple playoff appearances.  Maybe the Sox (at least a post-Jerry owner) will be able to develop the current park in such a way.  I have my doubts, but that's one thing that could address chronic attendance issues.  

And yes, I know this would go away if the Sox could just build a perennial pennant contender.  Easier said than done.  How many franchises have been able to consistently do that?  Maybe half a dozen?  Not everyone is able to replicate what the Braves have done.

While that would be nice, I think its effect at the current location is a bit overstated.  The skyline is a ways in the distance from 35th St.  Nothing like the eye-popping view they'd have at Lot 78.  If the Sox were able to magically rotate the current park 90 degrees tomorrow, it get applause from fans and critics, but I doubt it would be a game changer in drawing fans to the park.  It's not so much the view as the proximity to other things to do.

Today's economic reality is that teams need things around their ballpark to draw people to games.  Other teams see this:  Braves, Cardinals, Mets, Phillies, Royals.  Sure, someone will say "what about the Dodgers".  Well, that's an elite franchise playing in a 20M people megapolis.  Man, I wish the Sox were at the Dodgers' level of eliteness.  

Depends on your definitions doesn't it?

From 1981 through 2006, the Sox under JR had 16 winning seasons, got a brand new taxpayer funded stadium and were competitive. They also drew well (when JR wasn't sabotaging things with his break the union and White Flag Trade mentality)

As far as teams that consistently put out legit contenders, here is my list:

Yankees, Red Sox, Rays, Astros, Phillies, Braves, Brewers, Cardinals, Dodgers, Giants.

The White Sox are in the 3rd largest market in the country, they have huge advantages over the other teams in their division from an advertising, marketing and broadcasting standpoint , MLB considers them a "major market" team (which is why under the new draft rules they have to pick 10th next season).

The only thing stopping this franchise from having consistent success on the field (and that doesn't mean making the playoffs every year or getting to the World Series consistently) is one person and one person only...JR.

Period, end of story.

His arrogance, his ego, his delusion that he knows the "right" way to run a franchise, his insistence that loyalty is more important than winning and his demand that he be involved in literally every...single...major...baseball decision is destroying the franchise.

When new ownership arrives it offers the franchise a chance to start over with talented baseball people in the front office and on the field. At that point where GRF is located won't mean diddly s%*#. 

 

[77 Hitmen]

19 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Depends on your definitions doesn't it?

From 1981 through 2006, the Sox under JR had 16 winning seasons, got a brand new taxpayer funded stadium and were competitive. They also drew well (when JR wasn't sabotaging things with his break the union and White Flag Trade mentality)

As far as teams that consistently put out legit contenders, here is my list:

Yankees, Red Sox, Rays, Astros, Phillies, Braves, Brewers, Cardinals, Dodgers, Giants.

The White Sox are in the 3rd largest market in the country, they have huge advantages over the other teams in their division from an advertising, marketing and broadcasting standpoint , MLB considers them a "major market" team (which is why under the new draft rules they have to pick 10th next season).

The only thing stopping this franchise from having consistent success on the field (and that doesn't mean making the playoffs every year or getting to the World Series consistently) is one person and one person only...JR.

Period, end of story.

His arrogance, his ego, his delusion that he knows the "right" way to run a franchise, his insistence that loyalty is more important than winning and his demand that he be involved in literally every...single...major...baseball decision is destroying the franchise.

When new ownership arrives it offers the franchise a chance to start over with talented baseball people in the front office and on the field. At that point where GRF is located won't mean diddly s%*#. 

 

I can't wait for the day that JR is no longer owner and this can be put the test.

 

[soxfan18]

The Sky don't need a stadium, they need a practice facility. 

The Red Stars are the ones actively trying to leave Bridgeview (and the Fire don't want to be forced back there, if New Bears Stadium ever gets done). 

[Lip Man 1]

Latest recap of where things stand. According to the story the Sox had not responded yet on a request for comments.

Story also says that a motion has been filed by a state legislator requiring that any funds given to men's stadium deals must also include provisions for women's pro sports stadiums:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bears/bears-stadium/2024/05/31/bears-stadium-funding-springfield-illinois-general-assembly

[Lip Man 1]

Pritzer came out today and said this about the Bears stadium situation to the Tribune. I think you can replace the word Bears with White Sox and come up with the same conclusion:

Gov. J.B. Pritzker on Monday said there is almost no chance that a deal will get done this year on a taxpayer-funded stadium for the Chicago Bears, especially since the team has yet to make a proposal that the governor thinks would be acceptable to lawmakers.

“I made it clear to the Bears leadership that it would be near impossible to get anything done — if there was a proposal put on the table that could get done, you couldn’t actually get it done, probably, during the veto session and would have to wait until next spring,” Pritzker said, referring to the year’s final legislative session in November, during an unrelated news conference in Chicago.

“But in reality, there isn’t a proposal on the table right now that would be acceptable to anyone that I know in the legislature,” he continued.

 

[caulfield12]

On 5/28/2024 at 8:22 AM, 77 Hitmen said:

Thanks for that background.  That certainly sounds like Jerry.

I suppose lawmakers could insist that the Sky be allowed to play at the UC as part of any new stadium deal for the Sox.

 

Somehow protecting MJ's legacy... twisted thinking in the long run. 

[tray]

1. Steve Stone, during the broadcast on 7/29, lambasted the WSox organization for not being able to field a consistently winning team over the past 40-50 years. Oh sure, he said, they won in 2005 but that has been it. He mentioned the '77 team (which he was on) but ignored some teams dating back to the Go-Go Sox and the Al Lopez managed teams in the late 1960's that came very close to winning. And no mention of the play-offs in '83 with his beloved Orioles or the strike shortened season.  A little luck and the Sox may have won a few more championships.  But OK, I have to cede the point to Stone - the Sox suck and have almost  always sucked.

2. I do not entirely agree with most negative opinions expressed here about the location of GRF.  OK, the location is inconvenient for some people. Any location might be.  But, if you ever go to a game again...drive South toward Halsted on 37th, 34th, 33rd, etc and look how the area has gentrified. Drive North on Halsted toward UIC and Greektown and see how that area has been developing.  There are several beautiful condos West of GRF and many opportunities for future development. The reasons that you don't see too many restaurant/bars near the park   was and is by design - the design of Einhorn, Reinsdorf, Savarice and the ISFA.  They planned making GRF an island separated from bars and restaurants from the time they bulldozed McCuddys and paved paradise.  They like trying to keep alcohol profits in house, such as at the stadium connected Chi Sox Bar and Grill. They leave us with few choices for eating drinking outside the park ...and they like that.  There is plenty of real estate around the park to change that, but not when it is owned by JR and/or the ISFA. They want all your money. That is one reason why a lot of Sox fans love to tailgate. Their food, their drinks.

 

 

Edited July 30 by tray

[southsider2k5]

5 hours ago, tray said:

1. Steve Stone, during the broadcast on 7/29, lambasted the WSox organization for not being able to field a consistently winning team over the past 40-50 years. Oh sure, he said, they won in 2005 but that has been it. He mentioned the '77 team (which he was on) but ignored some teams dating back to the Go-Go Sox and the Al Lopex managed teams in the late 1960's that came very close to winning. And no mention of the play-offs in '83 with his beloved Orioles or the strike shortened season.  A little luck and the Sox may have won a few more championships.  But OK, I have to cede the point to Stone - the Sox suck and have almost  always sucked.

2. I do not entirely agree with most negative opinions expressed here about the location of GRF.  OK, the location is inconvenient for some people. Any location might be.  But, if you ever go to a game again...drive South toward Halsted on 37th, 34th, 33rd, etc and look how the area has gentrified. Drive North on Halsted toward UIC and Greektown and see how that area has been developing.  There are several beautiful condos West of GRF and many opportunities for future development. The reasons that you don't see too many restaurant/bars near the park   was and is by design - the design of Einhorn, Reinsdorf, Savarice and the ISFA.  They planned making GRF an island separated from bars and restaurants from the time they bulldozed McCuddys and paved paradise.  They like trying to keep alcohol profits in house, such as at the stadium connected Chi Sox Bar and Grill. They leave us with few choices for eating drinking outside the park ...and they like that.  There is plenty of real estate around the park to change that, but not when it is owned by JR and/or the ISFA. They want all your money. That is one reason why a lot of Sox fans love to tailgate. Their food, their drinks.

 

 

If true, expect Steve to be retired this year, finally.

[PaleAleSox]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

If true, expect Steve to be retired this year, finally.

I'm hoping both are gone under the "we have switched over to this new station." However, I'm sure it'll be Schriffen and Beckham. 

[hi8is]

2 hours ago, PaleAleSox said:

However, I'm sure it'll be Schriffen and Beckham. 

Talk about deplorable - how fitting for this fucking team.

[77 Hitmen]

On 7/29/2024 at 10:33 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

Pritzer came out today and said this about the Bears stadium situation to the Tribune. I think you can replace the word Bears with White Sox and come up with the same conclusion:

Gov. J.B. Pritzker on Monday said there is almost no chance that a deal will get done this year on a taxpayer-funded stadium for the Chicago Bears, especially since the team has yet to make a proposal that the governor thinks would be acceptable to lawmakers.

“I made it clear to the Bears leadership that it would be near impossible to get anything done — if there was a proposal put on the table that could get done, you couldn’t actually get it done, probably, during the veto session and would have to wait until next spring,” Pritzker said, referring to the year’s final legislative session in November, during an unrelated news conference in Chicago.

“But in reality, there isn’t a proposal on the table right now that would be acceptable to anyone that I know in the legislature,” he continued.

 

It should be pretty clear by now that there isn't going to be much in the way of public funding for either the Bears or the Sox aside from money going to infrastructure improvements.    This should be clear to the McCaskeys and Reinsdorf.  There's no political advantage for the Gov or the Legislature to give these billionaires billions in taxpayer money.  None - it's not going to happen. 

My predictions: 

The Bears end up building a stadium at Arlington Park using private financing as originally proposed.  There, they can build a massive entertainment complex next to a domed stadium that can draw private investments.

The Sox will eventually build a new stadium at Lot 78 using private financing for the ballpark itself and public funds for site improvement (new Red Line stop, Metra tracks realignment, Riverwalk).  This might not happen until Jerry is gone, but as long as that land is undeveloped, it'll be available for a new Sox owner even if it's a few years from now.  If Reinsdorf and the Wirtz family can come up with $7B in private funding to redevelop the parking lots around the UC, it's not hard to imagine JR or his successor coming up with less than that amount to make a Lot 78 development happen.

Edited August 1 by 77 Hitmen

[Lip Man 1]

Rays stadium approved, story says they will pay 700 million plus any additional expenses if the project has over runs:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/rays-new-stadium-approved-with-300-million-in-public-funding-the-best-neighborhood-ballpark/