Sox looking at building in South Loop

[JoeC]

19 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

We've been over this a million times.  Even taking one third of the Chicago metro area as the Sox base leaves a bigger empty market place than pretty much anywhere else in the US without a team, especially if expansion of two teams is inevitable.

I think that if they let the Sox leave for some reason, they'll just let Chicago be a 1-market team.

After enough time, the 1/3 of the metro area that pulls for the Sox will just drift over to Cubdom, so, outside of a few hardcore fans a) whose Sox fandom will follow the Sox out of town (supporter-wise); or b) the casual fans who don't contribute much financially anyways and just drift away from baseball altogether, it's not like MLB's TV market is going to shrink considerably.

I think it's an asinine move to move the Sox out of this market, but if it does, I wouldn't count on MLB replacing the Sox in Chicago.

[77 Hitmen]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

And that metro area is half of Chicago's.  MLB is absolutely looking at market size when they consider where to place teams.

If you're going by MSA definition, they seem to split SF/Oakland into a separate area than San Jose.  When you combine the two, the population is 6.5M vs. Chicagoland's 9.2M.  That isn't half.  And that doesn't count the nearby Sacramento MSA that adds another 2.4M market that brings them pretty close to the Chicago market without encroaching on another team's territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area

I'll also note that once you go outside the actual Chicago metro area, downstate IL is all Cubs and Cardinals fans for all intents and purposes.  Go north and you run into the Brewers market.  Not much of an extended market for the Sox. Also, you have to factor in cities like Salt Lake City where the city/state are ready to pay a stupid amount of public money to build a MLB stadium.   So, does Chicagoland's size matter?  Yes, I agree that it does.  Will MLB put blinders on and only look at the numbers from the MSA list?  No, I disagree that they'd approach it that way.

We can go back and forth all day on this and not get anywhere. The truth is that we can't know for sure until this is actually put the the test with a Sox relocation.....and I hope it never comes to that and I don't think it will.  My point remains that people shouldn't go around saying that the Sox leaving wouldn't be a problem because it's a slam dunk that MLB will prioritize bringing a 2nd team back to Chicago.  

 

Edited September 20 by 77 Hitmen

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

The truth is that we can't know for sure until this is actually put the the test with a Sox relocation.....and I hope it never comes to that and I don't think it will.  

I don't see a way that this gets resolved without the same sort of brinksmanship that it took to get the deal done for new Comiskey. Reinsdorf isn't going to offer up his own money if he can threaten to leave, and the only thing that might make the state offer anything is a 100% serious threat to leave. 

And if the politicians don't fully cave with a massive offer for him like last time...I don't know how this ends other than the A's approach.

[southsider2k5]

30 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

If you're going by MSA definition, they seem to split SF/Oakland into a separate area than San Jose.  When you combine the two, the population is 6.5M vs. Chicagoland's 9.2M.  That isn't half.  And that doesn't count the nearby Sacramento MSA that adds another 2.4M market that brings them pretty close to the Chicago market without encroaching on another team's territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area

I'll also note that once you go outside the actual Chicago metro area, downstate IL is all Cubs and Cardinals fans for all intents and purposes.  Go north and you run into the Brewers market.  Not much of an extended market for the Sox. Also, you have to factor in cities like Salt Lake City where the city/state are ready to pay a stupid amount of public money to build a MLB stadium.   So, does Chicagoland's size matter?  Yes, I agree that it does.  Will MLB put blinders on and only look at the numbers from the MSA list?  No, I disagree that they'd approach it that way.

We can go back and forth all day on this and not get anywhere. The truth is that we can't know for sure until this is actually put the the test with a Sox relocation.....and I hope it never comes to that and I don't think it will.  My point remains that people shouldn't go around saying that the Sox leaving wouldn't be a problem because it's a slam dunk that MLB will prioritize bringing a 2nd team back to Chicago.  

 

Sure.  Chicago has a 125 year of hosting major league baseball at a dollar amount greater than anywhere else in the US that doen't have a team.  California doesn't.  If Chicago were to move, they would almost certainly take one of Nashville or Salt Lake City, removing them from the equation.

[Quin]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't see a way that this gets resolved without the same sort of brinksmanship that it took to get the deal done for new Comiskey. Reinsdorf isn't going to offer up his own money if he can threaten to leave, and the only thing that might make the state offer anything is a 100% serious threat to leave. 

And if the politicians don't fully cave with a massive offer for him like last time...I don't know how this ends other than the A's approach.

Funny thing is, what town is gonna offer Jerry billions when they can try and get an expansion team after that article?

I know the A's happened, but the Vegas scenario is a dumpster fire and expansion smoke hadn't started up when that began.

[BrittBurnsFan]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't see a way that this gets resolved without the same sort of brinksmanship that it took to get the deal done for new Comiskey. Reinsdorf isn't going to offer up his own money if he can threaten to leave, and the only thing that might make the state offer anything is a 100% serious threat to leave. 

And if the politicians don't fully cave with a massive offer for him like last time...I don't know how this ends other than the A's approach.

As far as the A's approach...they didn't have the option of staying in their current ballpark really...I mean they could...but that building has served its purpose.  As for the Rate...like it or not...it could easily function in today baseball world of they wanted it to do so.  

[greg775]

4 hours ago, Quin said:

Any time someone talks about Ozzie keeping it real because he's ragging on Moncada or some other player: He simps for Jerry's money and is nothing more than a mouth piece and it's best to remember that.

I think you are being unfair to Ozzie. So what if he is a mouthpiece for Jerry? If he criticizes the home team once it's more than many announcers would do. It's amazing how people that hate Ozzie usually bring up his quitting on the team which is ridiculous IMO. How many games were the Sox out when he negotiated with Miami? He was gone after that season and everybody knew it. He lost the battle against Kenny. If he waits a week is he a hero right now? The guy expertly managed a postseason and led the Sox to their first WS title since forever. Geez. Somebody should do a documentary on his 'quitting' the team once and for all. This team basically quit after one month. You criticizing him for going to this even on behalf of Jerry is kind of piling on Ozzie I feel.

Edited September 20 by greg775

[Quin]

3 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I think you are being unfair to Ozzie. So what if he is a mouthpiece for Jerry? If he criticizes the home team once it's more than many announcers would do. It's amazing how people that hate Ozzie usually bring up his quitting on the team which is ridiculous IMO. How many games were the Sox out when he negotiated with Miami? He was gone after that season and everybody knew it. He lost the battle against Kenny. If he waits a week is he a hero right now? The guy expertly managed a postseason and led the Sox to their first WS title since forever. Geez. Somebody should do a documentary on his 'quitting' the team once and for all. This team basically quit after one month. You criticizing him for going to this even on behalf of Jerry is kind of piling on Ozzie I feel.

Ozzie is a selfish, braggadocious man who learned he can earn back the love of Sox fans by eviscerating this team, as long as he ignores the elephant in the room that keeps signing his checks.

[southsider2k5]

57 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I think you are being unfair to Ozzie. So what if he is a mouthpiece for Jerry? If he criticizes the home team once it's more than many announcers would do. It's amazing how people that hate Ozzie usually bring up his quitting on the team which is ridiculous IMO. How many games were the Sox out when he negotiated with Miami? He was gone after that season and everybody knew it. He lost the battle against Kenny. If he waits a week is he a hero right now? The guy expertly managed a postseason and led the Sox to their first WS title since forever. Geez. Somebody should do a documentary on his 'quitting' the team once and for all. This team basically quit after one month. You criticizing him for going to this even on behalf of Jerry is kind of piling on Ozzie I feel.

Some people are just easy marks for a not so good con arist.

[BrittBurnsFan]

4 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I think you are being unfair to Ozzie. So what if he is a mouthpiece for Jerry? If he criticizes the home team once it's more than many announcers would do. It's amazing how people that hate Ozzie usually bring up his quitting on the team which is ridiculous IMO. How many games were the Sox out when he negotiated with Miami? He was gone after that season and everybody knew it. He lost the battle against Kenny. If he waits a week is he a hero right now? The guy expertly managed a postseason and led the Sox to their first WS title since forever. Geez. Somebody should do a documentary on his 'quitting' the team once and for all. This team basically quit after one month. You criticizing him for going to this even on behalf of Jerry is kind of piling on Ozzie I feel.

Ozzie doesn't forget...and Ozzie knows he owes all he has in life to the chance the White Sox gave him as a young player.  Doesn't mean he loves everything about Jerry but Ozzie is smart enough not to take him on in public.  Ozzie appreciates loyalty shown his way...and he shows loyalty to those he deems worthy.  But that doesn't mean he is a blowhard for the organization...quite the contrary!

[Balta1701]

22 minutes ago, BrittBurnsFan said:

As far as the A's approach...they didn't have the option of staying in their current ballpark really...I mean they could...but that building has served its purpose.  As for the Rate...like it or not...it could easily function in today baseball world of they wanted it to do so.  

I can't find all the details because Google is now terrible, but Oakland gave the A's a serious offer for a new stadium as a partnership with a whole bunch of public money involved. 

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't see a way that this gets resolved without the same sort of brinksmanship that it took to get the deal done for new Comiskey. Reinsdorf isn't going to offer up his own money if he can threaten to leave, and the only thing that might make the state offer anything is a 100% serious threat to leave. 

And if the politicians don't fully cave with a massive offer for him like last time...I don't know how this ends other than the A's approach.

Didn't JR throw his son under the bus and say he would be the one who decided to sell it to out of town buyers. because he owed it to the shareholders to get the best deal? The same guy who is so dedicated to his shareholders, that he won't sell until it benefits JRs kids.

[WBWSF]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Didn't JR throw his son under the bus and say he would be the one who decided to sell it to out of town buyers. because he owed it to the shareholders to get the best deal? The same guy who is so dedicated to his shareholders, that he won't sell until it benefits JRs kids.

JRs son David wanted to take over the White Sox. Problem was he died a few years ago.

[Dick Allen]

11 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

JRs son David wanted to take over the White Sox. Problem was he died a few years ago.

I know Michael did at one time. But he is just like his dad with the Bulls, if not worse.

[Falstaff]

The State/City is not going to pay for The 78 stadium besides roads, sewers, infrastructure.  jerry can find a billionaire to partner up with if he wants it that bad.

The Sox are not moving out of Chicago, isn't happening.

With a new owner the Sox can thrive in Chicago.

The over the air tv package is actually brilliant, it will expose the Sox/Bulls/Hawks to 650, 000 potential viewers that don't have sports packages on their tv's.

Edited September 20 by Falstaff

[greg775]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

Ozzie is a selfish, braggadocious man who learned he can earn back the love of Sox fans by eviscerating this team, as long as he ignores the elephant in the room that keeps signing his checks.

My rebuttal: "Ozzie is an extroverted (at least with Sox media and national media, maybe not the normal person I don't know him) accomplished man who eviscerates the team because all the team has done all season is lose and make a few inconsequential to bad trades. While ignoring Jerry's role in all this is unfortunate, it is understandable as virtually all announcers (save for Hawk in his prime and Harry) would not blast the owner in such a situation. They'd ignore the topic. While I'd love for him to tear into Jerry, not many employees have the guts to bury their boss."

[Ducksnort]

Sox fans are out there. If the team was competitive, it would likely be close in attendance to the Cubs. While the Sox park is a decent and underrated venue (I refuse to call it guaranteed rate field, it's such a stupid name and logo and is just another idiotic business move by JR), it doesn't have the charm, history, or neighborhood that Wrigley does. So when the Cubs aren't doing well, fans have the ballpark and that also pulls in tourists as well. Attendance for Sox games is completely tied to how competitive the team is. It ain't better at the ballpark if the product on the field is ass. Fans will stay home and find something else to do with their summer. If the Sox are good, vying for the playoffs, there isn't another place on earth where you can feel the energy quite like you can on the Southside. And it's such a damn shame that has been stripped from us because of incompetence by the people who try to run the organization.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Some people are just easy marks for a not so good con arist.

Kind of unfair: 1.) Say what you want, he led our team to the 2005 WS title. Ecstasy for fans. You might say the players did all the work. Fair enough but he was the manager. 2.) I fully understand the 'quitting on the team' argument so he hasn't conned me. I accept that he did that cause frankly I don't care he did that. It's not like the team was winning anything. 3.) He's very entertaining, even though unfortunately I don't get the postgame show here as Sirius cuts off after the final out. My point is he didn't con me. I know the good and bad with him. I happen to think he is a great baseball mind and I loved his era as a player and manager. Only critical of Sunday lineup b.s. in which he conceded a lot of series finales.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Kind of unfair: 1.) Say what you want, he led our team to the 2005 WS title. Ecstasy for fans. You might say the players did all the work. Fair enough but he was the manager. 2.) I fully understand the 'quitting on the team' argument so he hasn't conned me. I accept that he did that cause frankly I don't care he did that. It's not like the team was winning anything. 3.) He's very entertaining, even though unfortunately I don't get the postgame show here as Sirius cuts off after the final out. My point is he didn't con me. I know the good and bad with him. I happen to think he is a great baseball mind and I loved his era as a player and manager. Only critical of Sunday lineup b.s. in which he conceded a lot of series finales.

In other words  you accepted Ozzie's spin on everything.  Thanks.

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said:

If you're going by MSA definition, they seem to split SF/Oakland into a separate area than San Jose.  When you combine the two, the population is 6.5M vs. Chicagoland's 9.2M.  That isn't half.  And that doesn't count the nearby Sacramento MSA that adds another 2.4M market that brings them pretty close to the Chicago market without encroaching on another team's territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area

I'll also note that once you go outside the actual Chicago metro area, downstate IL is all Cubs and Cardinals fans for all intents and purposes.  Go north and you run into the Brewers market.  Not much of an extended market for the Sox. Also, you have to factor in cities like Salt Lake City where the city/state are ready to pay a stupid amount of public money to build a MLB stadium.   So, does Chicagoland's size matter?  Yes, I agree that it does.  Will MLB put blinders on and only look at the numbers from the MSA list?  No, I disagree that they'd approach it that way.

We can go back and forth all day on this and not get anywhere. The truth is that we can't know for sure until this is actually put the the test with a Sox relocation.....and I hope it never comes to that and I don't think it will.  My point remains that people shouldn't go around saying that the Sox leaving wouldn't be a problem because it's a slam dunk that MLB will prioritize bringing a 2nd team back to Chicago.  

 

In reality, there are like 2 posters that regularly make this claim. Not exactly a popular opinion.

The White Sox are a charter member of the American League with a long history here in this city. It's really hard to see MLB ok'ing a move to a lesser market. I say lesser for a reason. Population isn't the only factor, and while Nashville and SLC are quaint places to visit, it doesn't mean those places can support an MLB team better than one that has for 125 years, even as the "2nd" team in this town. 

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

In reality, there are like 2 posters that regularly make this claim. Not exactly a popular opinion.

The White Sox are a charter member of the American League with a long history here in this city. It's really hard to see MLB ok'ing a move to a lesser market. I say lesser for a reason. Population isn't the only factor, and while Nashville and SLC are quaint places to visit, it doesn't mean those places can support an MLB team better than one that has for 125 years, even as the "2nd" team in this town. 

See that's the thing, if the White Sox genuinely can say "We tried to get a stadium deal done for 4 years and the city and state would not play ball", is MLB going to tell the White Sox no? Are the other owners? They want to be able to leverage the threat of moving for their own stadium deals, if MLB were to block that, it reduces the leverage of every other owner in the future when they make crazy demands of taxpayers.

If they were arbitrarily trying to move this year, fine right now there's no stomach for it, the league would say no today but there's literally a gulf of $1.5 billion between the two sides. I don't see how we are anywhere but right here in 2028, with the White Sox telling the league that they tried for 4 years and their stadium deal is expiring, and the league saying "fine if you have money elsewhere we won't block you". 

[Texsox]

It seems like owners won't block another owner from doing something they themselves may wish to do later. 

We all agree JR runs the team for his ego and making bad business decisions in regards to the team is practically his trademark. 

He would rather be wrong on his terms than right in the eyes of fans. He doesn't take kindly to no.

Finally, could attendance and ratings decline to a point where he could say fans in Chicago aren't currently supporting the team. 

Summary: We agree he doesn't care about fans. He constantly screws this up. He wants things his way. It's it that far fetched for the sob to move the team against all reason?

[Texsox]

I think the only debatable point is would the owners block him from moving? I would like to think so but I'm pessimistic when it comes to rich people with their toys and not screwing over the regular folks. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

I think the only debatable point is would the owners block him from moving? I would like to think so but I'm pessimistic when it comes to rich people with their toys and not screwing over the regular folks. 

I believe they would probably block it today, but that watching these stadium sagas drag out will change the equation just as it did in Oakland. I think the owners will act as a break on anyone moving a team irrationally, I don't think they will block it in general just because a team has been in a spot for a century once every option for public-funding has been exhausted. 

[Texsox]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I believe they would probably block it today, but that watching these stadium sagas drag out will change the equation just as it did in Oakland. I think the owners will act as a break on anyone moving a team irrationally, I don't think they will block it in general just because a team has been in a spot for a century once every option for public-funding has been exhausted. 

How sure are you? At best I'm maybe 66% they would block. Emotionally I'm 50-50 or worse.