Sox looking at building in South Loop

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

How sure are you? At best I'm maybe 66% they would block. Emotionally I'm 50-50 or worse.

Today? Oh yeah Reinsdorf dropping "We're moving to Nashville in 2029" today would have the owners screaming. That would take away their expansion fee options so it would take money out of their pocket, and they'd legitimately be able to say that the White Sox owners were acting irrationally and hurting their brand as a whole in the process. Reinsdorf announcing anything today would clearly be him saying FU to the state and White Sox fans, and the owners won't hurt the league like that. It would be completely arbitrary and out of no where. The owners held onto their power for a reason, they have the power to say no and they'd use it.

The White Sox have to let this play out through negotiations, and they know that. It's almost certainly why Reinsdorf started things right now, in 2024, because trying to negotiate for years and getting no where will be part of building support among the owners for allowing him to move. Whether it happens or not, it will make the threat of moving real, and JR clearly thinks he needs the threat of moving to Nashville as part of his negotiating strategy based on the fact that he's already threatened to move.

[Texsox]

I'm thinking 2028 or so and on. Multiple years of bottom five attendance (justifiably so and self induced), and no give away the bank from a cash strapped state. 

50-50 seems fair. 

[Texsox]

I'm shocked the Sox attendance has been as great as it is. I would hope the other owners would consider attendance versus how bad the experience is and protect the Chicago fans. 

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I'm thinking 2028 or so and on. Multiple years of bottom five attendance (justifiably so and self induced), and no give away the bank from a cash strapped state. 

50-50 seems fair. 

The only way I think the owners would block things in 2028 is if they were staring an almost certain expansion plan in the face and Reinsdorf was somehow going to block that. 

[Texsox]

The As have moved about three or four times. I wonder if anyone has tracked how those moves affected the rest of the league? 

Another consideration. Would Illinois and the city have more political capital to spend on a new stadium for a post Sox move expansion franchise? Wouldn't that be a kick in JRs balls? He moves and the state builds a new stadium for the new team. I almost like that scenario. I prefer the JR sells and immediately after the deal closes a new stadium is announced scenario. 

[Texsox]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The only way I think the owners would block things in 2028 is if they were staring an almost certain expansion plan in the face and Reinsdorf was somehow going to block that. 

I wonder if the number to approve a move is the same as the number to approve to expand? Simple majority? Super majority? It would be interesting if a small group of owners could wag the dog in that regard. 

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

The As have moved about three or four times. I wonder if anyone has tracked how those moves affected the rest of the league? 

Another consideration. Would Illinois and the city have more political capital to spend on a new stadium for a post Sox move expansion franchise? Wouldn't that be a kick in JRs balls? He moves and the state builds a new stadium for the new team. I almost like that scenario. I prefer the JR sells and immediately after the deal closes a new stadium is announced scenario. 

I think what would need to happen in that case is for an expansion ownership group to come forward, say they had the money for an expansion team, and to say that they'd put up money for the stadium that JR wouldn't.

For reference, I still think that it's' a good business decision for the White Sox to put up $1 billion+ on a stadium at the 78 site if they had the city/state chipping in a few hundred million more than the tax credit zone that's been established so far. I think that is a good deal all around, I think the city and state would go for it based on economics and I think that the White Sox and Related would have their franchise values go up from doing so.

I don't think Reinsdorf will do that, because I think Reinsdorf has clearly shown that he will only do this if he can soak the taxpayers in the process.

So, an ownership group coming together and saying "We want to do this" as an expansion option does still sound possible to me, if MLB has the appropriate TV rights reserved.

[Texsox]

I agree. If it's a bad deal for the taxpayer it's probably a bad deal for private investors. 

As much as I'd like to see the fans and players in a new park, I just can't see Illinois being in a position to gift a stadium. 

[greg775]

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

In other words  you accepted Ozzie's spin on everything.  Thanks.

I did. But back then they had reporters not afraid to ruffle feathers and I don't remember anybody suggesting anything but the Sox wanted to get rid of Ozzie. Kenny won the battle between those 2. Seemed cut and dried. Ozzie wanted more $$ and control and they chose KW. ... I will say in speaking against Ozzeroo he certainly had the biggest ego in Sox history (except for maybe George Bell and Albert Belle, mabe Chet Lemon after reading what Lip put on here) and it probably was time for him to move on to another team. Now I wanted him here but Oz's ego was too inflated at the time to probably continue on with the Sox. Finally, though, enuf time has passed, he's been good as an announcer, and it's time he returns. Arguably except for Al Lopez and Chuck Tanner the best manager in Sox history. p.s. What difference would it make if Oz waited a week and a half for the hammer to drop? He just gave the Sox a head start on finding a new skipper. I would think Ozzie is still popular with 'most' Sox fans.

Edited September 20 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I did. But back then they had reporters not afraid to ruffle feathers and I don't remember anybody suggesting anything but the Sox wanted to get rid of Ozzie. Kenny won the battle between those 2. Seemed cut and dried. Ozzie wanted more $$ and control and they chose KW. ... I will say in speaking against Ozzeroo he certainly had the biggest ego in Sox history (except for maybe George Bell and Albert Belle, mabe Chet Lemon after reading what Lip put on here) and it probably was time for him to move on to another team. Now I wanted him here but Oz's ego was too inflated at the time to probably continue on with the Sox. Finally, though, enuf time has passed, he's been good as an announcer, and it's time he returns. Arguably except for Al Lopez and Chuck Tanner the best manager in Sox history.

Like I said, you have drank the Kool-Aid.  Enjoy.

[Lip Man 1]

32 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I did. But back then they had reporters not afraid to ruffle feathers and I don't remember anybody suggesting anything but the Sox wanted to get rid of Ozzie. Kenny won the battle between those 2. Seemed cut and dried. Ozzie wanted more $$ and control and they chose KW. ... I will say in speaking against Ozzeroo he certainly had the biggest ego in Sox history (except for maybe George Bell and Albert Belle, mabe Chet Lemon after reading what Lip put on here) and it probably was time for him to move on to another team. Now I wanted him here but Oz's ego was too inflated at the time to probably continue on with the Sox. Finally, though, enuf time has passed, he's been good as an announcer, and it's time he returns. Arguably except for Al Lopez and Chuck Tanner the best manager in Sox history. p.s. What difference would it make if Oz waited a week and a half for the hammer to drop? He just gave the Sox a head start on finding a new skipper. I would think Ozzie is still popular with 'most' Sox fans.

I liked Chuck a lot but Paul Richards and Marty Marion were better managers.

Regarding Ozzie:

September 26, 2011 – He was considered the face of the franchise for eight seasons but on this night after a 4-3 win over Toronto, manager Ozzie Guillen announced he was leaving after owner Jerry Reinsdorf agreed to let him out of the final year of his contract. 

Guillen, who was the 1985 A.L. Rookie of the Year with the White Sox, won the World Series in 2005 and also got the club into the playoffs in 2008. He had five winning seasons in the eight years as manager and was named Manager of the Year for his work in 2005. 

In that magical season of 2005, “Ozzie Ball” resulted in the Sox getting off to the best start in their history and with a perfect blend of pitching, speed, power and the ability to execute the fundamentals the Sox were in first place from wire to wire. Then they blitzed through the post season putting together an 11-1 record that was the third best post season record in baseball history. 

Guillen’s passion and enthusiasm for the franchise was unparalleled but at times he was his own worst enemy.  

Over his final years in Chicago, he became increasingly thin-skinned and defensive when criticism was directed his way and he lashed out at Sox fans on more than one occasion.

Among his famous rants against the fans were one where he said that they could ‘‘Turn off their TVs and stop watching the game if they don’t like the [bleep]ing lineup’’ and another in May 2011 where he claimed Sox fans would not remember him, “As soon as you leave the ballpark, they don’t care about you. They don’t. The monuments, the statues…they pee on them when they get drunk.” On the afternoon of the day he left the team Guillen told reporters that he would not want to return to fulfill his 2012 contract unless he got an extension and more money.

Ozzie’s relationship with G.M. Kenny Williams also deteriorated over the final few years because the two men appeared to have different viewpoints over how the roster should be constructed and the style to which the Sox should play. The Jim Thome/DH controversy was an example of the different ideas.  Guillen’s family didn’t help the situation with social media comments derogatory to Williams. 

Many felt when Ozzie was hired in November 2003 that he was the right man for the right team at the right time and for a few years he was. Unfortunately, the manager with the longest tenure since Al Lopez let some personal foibles override a good situation and it was best for all that a parting of the ways took place.

Greg: Don't forget the Sox actually were still in the race before a crucial series with Detroit when before the game Ozzie met the press and started talking about not wanting to stay unless he got a raise and a contract extension. He doubled down on that the day he was allowed to leave. 

[greg775]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Like I said, you have drank the Kool-Aid.  Enjoy.

I do love Ozzie that is for sure.

[Highland]

6 hours ago, greg775 said:

I do love Ozzie that is for sure.

Ozzie is the type of person who wears out his welcome. By 2011, he had done that.

But don't worry. The Sox will get a new stadium. They won't have a team to put in it, but they will have a new stadium.  Maybe they will finally re-hire Ozzie, and he can manage a 100-loss team.

[77 Hitmen]

On 9/20/2024 at 4:21 PM, Tnetennba said:

In reality, there are like 2 posters that regularly make this claim. Not exactly a popular opinion.

The White Sox are a charter member of the American League with a long history here in this city. It's really hard to see MLB ok'ing a move to a lesser market. I say lesser for a reason. Population isn't the only factor, and while Nashville and SLC are quaint places to visit, it doesn't mean those places can support an MLB team better than one that has for 125 years, even as the "2nd" team in this town. 

We're talking about 2 different situations. 

I agree that it's extremely unlikely for the Sox to move to another market.  Yes, I don't see MLB approving it - certainly not in a way that undercuts expansion ambitions in some cities (Nashville).  I'm in agreement that any hint of this from Jerry is almost certainly bluff to try to extort taxpayer money for a new park.

My point was in reaction to some fans saying "let them move! MLB will certainly grant a new expansion team to Chicago".  Those are two different things and I never said I thought MLB would okay a Sox move.  What I'm saying is that *IF* the league lets the Sox move, I just don't see MLB bringing an expansion team to Chicago so people should stop fantasizing that particular scenario playing out.  

Of course, we don't get to the whole expansion question if MLB owners aren't going to approve a  Sox move in the first place.   So, it's really just a "If this, Then that" hypothetical and therefore basically a pointless argument since (thankfully) I don't think we'd get past that first hurdle of the league okaying a move.  

I mean, the league did approve the A's move, after that dragged on for years and they really do play in a dilapidated stadium and that just can't continue indefinitely....and even that's not exactly going smoothly.  GRF isn't anywhere near close to that situation.   Our problem is a dilapidated ownership, not a dilapidated stadium.

  

Edited September 21 by 77 Hitmen

[ewokpelts]

On 9/20/2024 at 5:14 PM, Balta1701 said:

Today? Oh yeah Reinsdorf dropping "We're moving to Nashville in 2029" today would have the owners screaming. That would take away their expansion fee options so it would take money out of their pocket, and they'd legitimately be able to say that the White Sox owners were acting irrationally and hurting their brand as a whole in the process. Reinsdorf announcing anything today would clearly be him saying FU to the state and White Sox fans, and the owners won't hurt the league like that. It would be completely arbitrary and out of no where. The owners held onto their power for a reason, they have the power to say no and they'd use it.

The White Sox have to let this play out through negotiations, and they know that. It's almost certainly why Reinsdorf started things right now, in 2024, because trying to negotiate for years and getting no where will be part of building support among the owners for allowing him to move. Whether it happens or not, it will make the threat of moving real, and JR clearly thinks he needs the threat of moving to Nashville as part of his negotiating strategy based on the fact that he's already threatened to move.

but john fisher can do that with vegas?

[ewokpelts]

On 9/21/2024 at 6:07 PM, 77 Hitmen said:

We're talking about 2 different situations. 

I agree that it's extremely unlikely for the Sox to move to another market.  Yes, I don't see MLB approving it - certainly not in a way that undercuts expansion ambitions in some cities (Nashville).  I'm in agreement that any hint of this from Jerry is almost certainly bluff to try to extort taxpayer money for a new park.

My point was in reaction to some fans saying "let them move! MLB will certainly grant a new expansion team to Chicago".  Those are two different things and I never said I thought MLB would okay a Sox move.  What I'm saying is that *IF* the league lets the Sox move, I just don't see MLB bringing an expansion team to Chicago so people should stop fantasizing that particular scenario playing out.  

Of course, we don't get to the whole expansion question if MLB owners aren't going to approve a  Sox move in the first place.   So, it's really just a "If this, Then that" hypothetical and therefore basically a pointless argument since (thankfully) I don't think we'd get past that first hurdle of the league okaying a move.  

I mean, the league did approve the A's move, after that dragged on for years and they really do play in a dilapidated stadium and that just can't continue indefinitely....and even that's not exactly going smoothly.  GRF isn't anywhere near close to that situation.   Our problem is a dilapidated ownership, not a dilapidated stadium.

  

Joe ricketts would block any team coming to chicago if the sox move.

[Rusty]

10 minutes ago, ewokpelts said:

Joe ricketts would block any team coming to chicago if the sox move.

As would StL and Milwaukee.  Hell, Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland, and KC probably block it as well so they don’t have to face a major market competitor in division.

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, ewokpelts said:

but john fisher can do that with vegas?

Huh?

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, ewokpelts said:

Joe ricketts would block any team coming to chicago if the sox move.

 

4 minutes ago, Rusty said:

As would StL and Milwaukee.  Hell, Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland, and KC probably block it as well so they don’t have to face a major market competitor in division.

If MLB were to allow the White Sox to move, they'd almost certainly make sure to maintain the rights to putting a second team in that media market as part of the approval process, so that no small set of teams could block expansion there. Expansion might never happen, but MLB would definitely take steps to retain those rights.

[ewokpelts]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

 

If MLB were to allow the White Sox to move, they'd almost certainly make sure to maintain the rights to putting a second team in that media market as part of the approval process, so that no small set of teams could block expansion there. Expansion might never happen, but MLB would definitely take steps to retain those rights.

The cubs would fight tooth and nail to claim Chicago for itself the Sox moved. 
 

this isn’t 1975 anymore. 

[ewokpelts]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Huh?

Move a team into a market ripe for expansion. 

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, ewokpelts said:

Move a team into a market ripe for expansion. 

Yes, and you replied to me saying "negotiating for years will make the threat of moving real." You know, exactly what happened with the A's?

[caulfield12]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, and you replied to me saying "negotiating for years will make the threat of moving real." You know, exactly what happened with the A's?

And the A's have a really solid young offensive core that's marketable...only shortcoming is pitching.

 

[ewokpelts]

On 9/23/2024 at 12:23 PM, Balta1701 said:

Yes, and you replied to me saying "negotiating for years will make the threat of moving real." You know, exactly what happened with the A's?

you know what is happening in Oakland wasn't above board at all. 

[NO!!MARY!!!]

On 9/23/2024 at 12:55 PM, ewokpelts said:

Joe ricketts would block any team coming to chicago if the sox move.

Exactly! That’s one of several factors the whole “I hate the old, aging owner who won’t live forever so much I want my (so-called) favorite team to move and be gone forever! And they can bring in a new team!” Fantasists never consider.