Sox looking at building in South Loop

[WBWSF]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:

81 pages so far and everything that could be said has been said but bottom line is there are around 10 million people in the Chicago metro area and the Cubs own the market with 67 percent Cub fans and 33 percent Sox fans. A new stadium will help draw fans for a while but after a few years the Cubs will still own the market and the Sox will struggle to draw 2 million a year. The Sox would be better off in another city and frankly I don’t care as that’s what 42 years of JR’s ownership has done to me.

Assuming the South Loop stadium is built, this time build  a stadium  that people like. I've read a number of times that 20% of Cubs attendance comes from out of state,  The White Sox don't draw that many fans from out of state. The new stadium will attract alot of fans from out of state if the stadium is nice. They will easily draw 2 million fans   a year in the South Loop if they build a nice stadium.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:

81 pages so far and everything that could be said has been said but bottom line is there are around 10 million people in the Chicago metro area and the Cubs own the market with 67 percent Cub fans and 33 percent Sox fans. A new stadium will help draw fans for a while but after a few years the Cubs will still own the market and the Sox will struggle to draw 2 million a year. The Sox would be better off in another city and frankly I don’t care as that’s what 42 years of JR’s ownership has done to me.

The Chicago area market is in no way split 67/33.

Even the most bias of city-centric charts put it closer to 60/40.

[Falstaff]

10 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

They need an owner to rebrand them - kind of like the Clippers under Balmer. Not saying Clippers have won a championship and they will never be the Lakers - but they are building their own stadium, creating their own buzz, and definitely have a much bigger presence than before - but more than that - Sox fans - we don't care whether we are the most popular team in Chicago - we care about being the better team - I do think a new stadium and than the new owner (which I just presume is coming with it) will align that way.  

Balmer is a Clipper fan's dream for ownership. The 2 guys I can think of that have more money than they know what to do with are the Mets & Panthers owners. I am not sure how that will all play out in New York and Charlotte, especially Charlotte.

I wonder if the next White Sox owner is already negotiating with Jerry behind the scenes. I hope it's  George Lucas's wife Mellody Hudson. She is a Southside Sox fan with access to billions of dollars.

Edited February 29 by Falstaff
typo, fat fingered word by error

[Falstaff]

First 20,000 get a Star Wars Storm Trooper action figure.

[The Mighty Mite]

26 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Assuming the South Loop stadium is built, this time build  a stadium  that people like. I've read a number of times that 20% of Cubs attendance comes from out of state,  The White Sox don't draw that many fans from out of state. The new stadium will attract alot of fans from out of state if the stadium is nice. They will easily draw 2 million fans   a year in the South Loop if they build a nice stadium.

Could be and that would be nice, they have to build a ballpark and surrounding area that is a destination. 

[pettie4sox]

I think it's safe to assume, if the Sox had a better owner, the division on the new stadium would be non-existent.

[Chicago White Sox]

Edit

Edited February 29 by Chicago White Sox

[Sarava]

23 hours ago, Sleepy Harold said:

The Sox would be going so far away from their base I don't see how Arlington makes any sense for them. Would obviously have to shed any "Southside" persona/vibe/branding as well.

I dont disagree with you. A move to Arlington would clearly be remaking the fanbase to a degree. It probably would grow immensely.

[Lightly Folded]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Chicago area market is in no way split 67/33.

Even the most bias of city-centric charts put it closer to 60/40.

Polls supposedly indicating fandom sizes have always been taken after the cubs have good seasons and the Sox not as good. Was there a  poll after the Sox won it all in 2005? The answer is no. 

[77 Hitmen]

4 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

81 pages so far and everything that could be said has been said but bottom line is there are around 10 million people in the Chicago metro area and the Cubs own the market with 67 percent Cub fans and 33 percent Sox fans. A new stadium will help draw fans for a while but after a few years the Cubs will still own the market and the Sox will struggle to draw 2 million a year. The Sox would be better off in another city and frankly I don’t care as that’s what 42 years of JR’s ownership has done to me.

33% of 10 million people is still a base of over 3 million people.  Neither Nashville or any other of the mentioned expansion cities has a metro area over 3 million.  IMO, a South Loop ballpark would have a lasting positive impact on the Sox market share in Chicago.  Right now, only diehards are bothering to go to 35th St. even if it's only a few el stops away.  

I also wonder if it's easier for fans who live thousands of miles away to say they don't care if the Sox move to another city.  I live in Chicagoland and I DO CARE if the Sox move out of town (and I don't think they're going to move).

Edited February 29 by 77 Hitmen

[Tnetennba]

3 hours ago, Falstaff said:

First 20,000 get a Star Wars Storm Trooper action figure.

Sold!

[Highland]

I believe that JR' s main objective is to get his new stadium as opposed to putting a winning team on the field again. Instead of going down to warm Arizona to see how his team is doing, he's in cold Springfield lobbying for public funds.

Sometimes, fans have wondered if JR thinks about any legacy he will leave behind. I don't think it is another World Series. It is the new stadium. Who needs a World Series? Of course, his family will be in a better position to sell the franchise after his passing if there is a new stadium or plans to build one. What new owner wouldn't like to step into a situation like that?

If JR wants a new stadium, it would help if he showed a real commitment to putting a winning team together. But that takes real money. Hey, JR, it takes money to make money.

 

[Tnetennba]

14 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

33% of 10 million people is still a base of over 3 million people.  Neither Nashville or any other of the mentioned expansion cities has a metro area over 3 million.  IMO, a South Loop ballpark would have a lasting positive impact on the Sox market share in Chicago.  Right now, only diehards are bothering to go to 35th St. even if it's only a few el stops away.  

I also wonder if it's easier for fans who live thousands of miles away to say they don't care if the Sox move to another city.  I live in Chicagoland and I DO CARE if the Sox move out of town (and I don't think they're going to move).

You might be on to something there. I hate the org with a burning passion, but even if they moved to the burbs I would feel a profound sense of loss. If you aren’t local, what changes for you if they move? Not a whole lot. 

[Lightly Folded]

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

You might be on to something there. I hate the org with a burning passion, but even if they moved to the burbs I would feel a profound sense of loss. If you aren’t local, what changes for you if they move? Not a whole lot. 

Geez. Listening to The Score this morning isn’t easy. The hosts seemed not only resigned to the Sox leaving Illinois but are urging they leave. One host stated his hope they move to Montreal over Nashville. Egads! 

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Lightly Folded said:

Geez. Listening to The Score this morning isn’t easy. The hosts seemed not only resigned to the Sox leaving Illinois but are urging they leave. One host stated his hope they move to Montreal over Nashville. Egads! 

They still have 6 years on their lease.

 

If all these places are such hot spots and better than a non revenue sharing recipient Chicago, why aren't there teams there yet? 

Edited February 29 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

11 minutes ago, Lightly Folded said:

Geez. Listening to The Score this morning isn’t easy. The hosts seemed not only resigned to the Sox leaving Illinois but are urging they leave. One host stated his hope they move to Montreal over Nashville. Egads! 

I can't think of many things that are a bigger waste of time right now than a Sox fan listening to sports talk radio on the Score.

[Lightly Folded]

9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They still have 6 years on their lease.

 

If all these places are such hot spots and better than a non revenue sharing recipient Chicago, why aren't there teams there yet? 

My quote was about the attitude we have to deal with everyday from sports radio/media etc which is the attitude that everyone is fine with  them leaving and that they should leave. 

[kba]

12 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

It is also a fact in the book that came out on the building of Camden Yards that a person with the HOK firm which designed the Orioles Stadium was quoted directly as stating that firm offered the Camden Yards design to JR and he rejected it.  

Lip, do you have the name of that book?  Because I've been reading Peter Richmond's book Ballpark: Camden Yards and the Building of an American Dream, and he has a completely different story.

Richmond portrays HOK at the time as specialists in generic stadiums such as Joe Robbie, Giants Stadium, and New Comiskey. He writes a couple chapters about how HOK was pushing the Orioles toward a Comiskey-like plan that demolished the warehouse. He says it was the Orioles and some local consultants who came up with the idea for the retro-design and had to persuade HOK to do it. He quotes Orioles president Larry Lucchino saying of HOK, "Comiskey would have been the stadium they'd have built, given free reign."

You can read excerpts of Richmond's book here.  I guess Richmond's take could be revisionist history, but I'm wondering where the story comes from that says HOK ever had a Camden Yards design for Chicago.

[southsider2k5]

25 minutes ago, kba said:

Lip, do you have the name of that book?  Because I've been reading Peter Richmond's book Ballpark: Camden Yards and the Building of an American Dream, and he has a completely different story.

Richmond portrays HOK at the time as specialists in generic stadiums such as Joe Robbie, Giants Stadium, and New Comiskey. He writes a couple chapters about how HOK was pushing the Orioles toward a Comiskey-like plan that demolished the warehouse. He says it was the Orioles and some local consultants who came up with the idea for the retro-design and had to persuade HOK to do it. He quotes Orioles president Larry Lucchino saying of HOK, "Comiskey would have been the stadium they'd have built, given free reign."

You can read excerpts of Richmond's book here.  I guess Richmond's take could be revisionist history, but I'm wondering where the story comes from that says HOK ever had a Camden Yards design for Chicago.

Oh this would be an awesome twist.

[Lip Man 1]

50 minutes ago, kba said:

Lip, do you have the name of that book?  Because I've been reading Peter Richmond's book Ballpark: Camden Yards and the Building of an American Dream, and he has a completely different story.

Richmond portrays HOK at the time as specialists in generic stadiums such as Joe Robbie, Giants Stadium, and New Comiskey. He writes a couple chapters about how HOK was pushing the Orioles toward a Comiskey-like plan that demolished the warehouse. He says it was the Orioles and some local consultants who came up with the idea for the retro-design and had to persuade HOK to do it. He quotes Orioles president Larry Lucchino saying of HOK, "Comiskey would have been the stadium they'd have built, given free reign."

You can read excerpts of Richmond's book here.  I guess Richmond's take could be revisionist history, but I'm wondering where the story comes from that says HOK ever had a Camden Yards design for Chicago.

This is a long detailed article on the history behind the design and it talks about how JR and the Sox had "considerable influence" of what they wanted vis a vis with HOK:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/the-white-sox-ballpark-in-chicago-that-never-was-and-could-have-changed-history/

The next book Dr. Fletcher and the Chicago Baseball Museum will be doing (and I contributed) comes out in the spring of 2025. It will look at the 1990 team and the building/controversy surrounding the stadium that opened in 1991. 

I've just e-mailed him asking if based on his extensive research for the book he can clear this point up. 

 

 

Edited February 29 by Lip Man 1

[Harry Chappas]

54 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I can't think of many things that are a bigger waste of time right now than a Sox fan listening to sports talk radio on the Score.

The station's personalities truly believe they are the smartest people on earth. 

The thing lost on franchises moving and why the White Sox will not is that there is no inherent fan base.   You roll into Nashville or Montreal and you have a bad team people aren't showing up.

I am not certain how hockey and basketball who have expanded more recently have resulted but the popularity of baseball in the last few years continues to decline.  Generational fandom is a necessity.

If the White Sox go on a sustained run which isn't that difficult...say 3 divisions in 5 years and are a 85+ win team over that span they will draw 2.5+M fans a season.  Regardless of where they play.  Their best season in 18 years happened when fans were not allowed in.  Then their play dropped off in the second year after fans were let back in.  ALDS Game 3 should be a common thing and you aren't getting that in Nashville or Montreal.  There is no inherent connection.

Now will the owner hire the folks to do that....probably not.  Nothing is happening with them until he drops dead then maybe the next owner will realize this.

Chicago is the greatest sports city in the world.  As a second fiddle to the cubs the White Sox if run properly can succeed better then in any other market. 

For Pete's sake the Blackhawks s%*# all over their fans then they became the biggest thing in hockey.  The Bulls still outdraw just about any team.  The Bears franchise is a disgrace but still get on prime time and are the talk of football way too often.  Da 85 Bears are probably the most memorable team outside of the Jordan Bulls, Jeter Yankees and Brady Pats...and that was one season 38 years ago.  As a singular team there is none that surpassed their mystique.  The cubs are one of the most popular teams in baseball and they have had one run of success (albeit only 3 years) in the last 125 years.

The White Sox could move and SCORE could pine for it but it's not a good business decision.

The national media and folks of Chicago love their sports teams.  

  

 

 

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

The station's personalities truly believe they are the smartest people on earth. 

The thing lost on franchises moving and why the White Sox will not is that there is no inherent fan base.   You roll into Nashville or Montreal and you have a bad team people aren't showing up.

I am not certain how hockey and basketball who have expanded more recently have resulted but the popularity of baseball in the last few years continues to decline.  Generational fandom is a necessity.

If the White Sox go on a sustained run which isn't that difficult...say 3 divisions in 5 years and are a 85+ win team over that span they will draw 2.5+M fans a season.  Regardless of where they play.  Their best season in 18 years happened when fans were not allowed in.  Then their play dropped off in the second year after fans were let back in.  ALDS Game 3 should be a common thing and you aren't getting that in Nashville or Montreal.  There is no inherent connection.

Now will the owner hire the folks to do that....probably not.  Nothing is happening with them until he drops dead then maybe the next owner will realize this.

Chicago is the greatest sports city in the world.  As a second fiddle to the cubs the White Sox if run properly can succeed better then in any other market. 

For Pete's sake the Blackhawks s%*# all over their fans then they became the biggest thing in hockey.  The Bulls still outdraw just about any team.  The Bears franchise is a disgrace but still get on prime time and are the talk of football way too often.  Da 85 Bears are probably the most memorable team outside of the Jordan Bulls, Jeter Yankees and Brady Pats...and that was one season 38 years ago.  As a singular team there is none that surpassed their mystique.  The cubs are one of the most popular teams in baseball and they have had one run of success (albeit only 3 years) in the last 125 years.

The White Sox could move and SCORE could pine for it but it's not a good business decision.

The national media and folks of Chicago love their sports teams.  

  

 

 

Bulls, Cubs, and Bears fans are a different breed than Sox and Blackhawks fans.  The former show up no matter what.  The latter, not so much.  Almost every fan base shows up when a team wins.  Obvious there are a couple of exceptions, but in about 95% of cases that is true.  We can argue if that makes for "smart" fans vs "loyal" fans all we want, but the fact that it is true remains, and it is a factor in the stadium that JR is looking for today.  His primary focus seems to be putting this stadium into a project which will serve as a bridge to the casual fan who doesn't give a s%*# what the teams record is to fill in the years where the park is half empty.

[Lightly Folded]

9 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

The station's personalities truly believe they are the smartest people on earth. 

The thing lost on franchises moving and why the White Sox will not is that there is no inherent fan base.   You roll into Nashville or Montreal and you have a bad team people aren't showing up.

I am not certain how hockey and basketball who have expanded more recently have resulted but the popularity of baseball in the last few years continues to decline.  Generational fandom is a necessity.

If the White Sox go on a sustained run which isn't that difficult...say 3 divisions in 5 years and are a 85+ win team over that span they will draw 2.5+M fans a season.  Regardless of where they play.  Their best season in 18 years happened when fans were not allowed in.  Then their play dropped off in the second year after fans were let back in.  ALDS Game 3 should be a common thing and you aren't getting that in Nashville or Montreal.  There is no inherent connection.

Now will the owner hire the folks to do that....probably not.  Nothing is happening with them until he drops dead then maybe the next owner will realize this.

Chicago is the greatest sports city in the world.  As a second fiddle to the cubs the White Sox if run properly can succeed better then in any other market. 

For Pete's sake the Blackhawks s%*# all over their fans then they became the biggest thing in hockey.  The Bulls still outdraw just about any team.  The Bears franchise is a disgrace but still get on prime time and are the talk of football way too often.  Da 85 Bears are probably the most memorable team outside of the Jordan Bulls, Jeter Yankees and Brady Pats...and that was one season 38 years ago.  As a singular team there is none that surpassed their mystique.  The cubs are one of the most popular teams in baseball and they have had one run of success (albeit only 3 years) in the last 125 years.

The White Sox could move and SCORE could pine for it but it's not a good business decision.

The national media and folks of Chicago love their sports teams.  

  

 

 

The Score has been pining for the Sox to leave for years. It’s just with more regularity now. I think the overall psychological status of some their hosts is something to consider when hearing their proliferations on the subject. 

[caulfield12]

41 minutes ago, Lightly Folded said:

The Score has been pining for the Sox to leave for years. It’s just with more regularity now. I think the overall psychological status of some their hosts is something to consider when hearing their proliferations on the subject. 

Pontifications?

[South Side Hit Men]

18 minutes ago, Lightly Folded said:

The Score has been pining for the Sox to leave for years. It’s just with more regularity now. I think the overall psychological status of some their hosts is something to consider when hearing their proliferations on the subject. 

Terry Boers was the last decent host on the station. Most corporate media is a waste, and there to sell adds to the few thousand who tune in. I really don't think they carry any sway beyond existing as a windsock.

I would like both Montreal to get a team and the Sox to agree to an equitable agreement to remain either at 35th and Shields or somewhere within the City, including this 78 parcel. Montreal is the only MLB city which lost a team which still does not have one, with Oakland being a future possibility. The 1994 cancelled season and Jeff Loria were the primary reasons Montreal lost the Expos, which never should have happened.

Quebecois!