Outside the Box: Trade Cease+ for Daulton Varsho+

[southsider2k5]

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Still not proposing your own trade.

You’re doing another Hahn.  Merely looking at Benintendi’s 2022 or Pollock’s last year in LA and not the full context of the overall decline in numbers over a 3-4 year period.

The same thing as acquiring the two hottest prospects in Moncada and Kopech…but missing on Devers, who has his own set of limitations but can at the very least hit consistently enough to be rewarded with a massive contract extension.  

(Of course the really smart GM/ownership group rewards the much more valuable player in Betts instead of cutting costs.)

If the White Sox can’t consistently develop prospects…then at least they are far better off trying to “fix” players with proven talent at the big league level, but they have hardly proved capable of doing that, either.

 

It’s almost impossible to find players with three or more years of control with a minimum 4.5-4.8 fWAR or above peak because those players are ordinarily never made available.

Maybe Varsho fails to exceed a 3.0 a fWAR for the remainder of his career (another Moncada bust), but we have two of our top executives now in Barfield and his assistant who are paid to know the answer.

Just like we have half the Royals’ front office and coaching staff but not the individual responsible from poaching Ragans from the Rangers for Chapman…a #30 pick in the first round who throws as hard or harder than Cease Kopech Santos.  

 

 

“Ragans has posted an underwhelming 5.32 ERA, 1.45 WHIP and 51:30 K:BB in 64.1 career major-league innings after undergoing two Tommy John surgeries. has posted an underwhelming 5.32 ERA, 1.45 WHIP and 51:30 K:BB in 64.1 career major-league innings after undergoing two Tommy John surgeries.”

 

“Multiple quality pitches, and one very solid out pitch plus limiting hard contact/barrels is a very good recipe for success. The only thing I am worried about at this point is his elbow. It has blown out twice before, and he is sustaining way higher velocities deep into games. He topped out at 98.7 mph on Tuesday and was sitting 94 to 98 the whole way. That is a tick down from the previous start, and I would like to see him not max out all the time. When he popped the 101 against the A’s visions of Jacob deGrom flashed in my head. 

Given the eye test and underlying stats, it is hard to see how Cole Ragans is not at least a number two starter if he can maintain the velocity and stuff he has shown so far as a Royal. Injury and regression are, unfortunately, constants in the pitching world from year to year however. Either way, the fact that the Royals identified him, traded for him, improved him, and unleashed him on their foes is a really good sign that the pitching development team is more competent than we have seen in quite some time. Now if they can just find a couple more starters like this maybe next year could avoid being a disaster again.”

https://www.royalsreview.com/2023/8/31/23852872/cole-ragans-has-the-stuff

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/mlb/kansas-city-royals/article278117072.html

 

The problem is the scout and GM who targeted him are still with the Royals…and our scouting tree has withered on the vine until just this offseason.  And we still don’t cover the Pacific Rim well enough…some SoxTalk posters know more about it from actually watching games than Haber’s CPU and algorithms could analyze and assess correctly.

You have to consistently find bargains and buy low on players who could potentially be stars.  That’s how they succeeded in the 2000s, it simply wasn’t sustainable long-term.

 

15.

[TheFutureIsNear]

My only problem with Varsho is that he’s not good at hitting a baseball…other than that he’s great. 

[oldsox]

27 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

My only problem with Varsho is that he’s not good at hitting a baseball…other than that he’s great. 

There is always room for another catcher who can't hit .200.

[Rolle Tide]

12 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

::inhale::

hahahahahahqhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I’m not a White Sox fan and this was my first thought. Obviously Getz sights are much higher than a guy with a 300 OBP in his last 2 full seasons. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

This is a sad sad place some times. Caulfield is a great Sox fan. He wants to help and has ideas and is brave enough to share his ideas with us jerks he knows will scorn him and laugh at his ideas because we can't express ourselves in any other way than short chaotic bursts of sarcastic derision like cavemen grunting.

Caulfield I think the mistake you are making is thinking the Sox actually want to compete quickly like Jerry told us.

I, too, at first thought trying to get younger established high floor guys with control was more of a sure thing and the Sox could use more tradable assets. So early on in the Cease trade talks I suggested getting a controllable younger player who had already had a good year or 2. After all the Sox are so bad every avenue we turn seems like a dead end. So I figured try to get mix of a tradable controlled player and a prospect for Cease. I forgot the young controllable guy I wanted in return but it wasn't seen by the vocal majority as a good idea.

We saw first hand how even the best prospects are extremely inconsistent in this organization or get injured. We think it's JRs fault for not hiring good scouts and development people and we probably are right . It also could be true that the Sox could be experiencing what other teams do with injuries and inconsistencies of many prospects. But what other choice do we have than to cling to the idea that Cease is a rare commodity worthy of the high asking price as recently described in a fangraphs article ?

Getting top prospects is still viewed as the only way of actually getting in a strong position to be truly competitive again at least in recent competent organizations like the Astros, Tampa Bay, Orioles, Cubs Diamondbacks. 

Despite the way the rebuild crashed and burned,  a bad organization like the Sox managed to get to the playoffs for 2 consecutive years for the 1st time in the franchise history. Those were exciting times and the glitter of top prospects is so very shiny until the corrosion sets in.

The currently deceased rebuild showed us how destructive that corrosion can be when those prospects don't pan out. The corrosion is the nature of prospects, bad development, a bad organization , bad luck. Right now it could be all of those things combined. That makes for a very angry, divided,  and confused  fan base.

Getz isn't calling it a rebuild because his boss says we want to compete as fast as we can . That's the excuse JR made for hiring Getz. Hit the ground running. A new guy from outside the organization will take time to learn everything Getz already knows.

The scary thing is we can't yet get a handle on what Getz is doing for the future of the franchise. Everything he's done so far seems to be based on improving the current rosters defense and pitching at the expense of hitting .

The only thing is it's all very temporary based on creating tradable pitching pieces out of the cheapest arms he could find. How could that go wrong ? It has very little chance of succeeding  but that's how desperately the Sox need more guys who can brings in prospects .

Getz knows it's a rebuild and he has to start from a terrible roster while Hahn got to start with a mediocre roster. Getz and the Sox are fucked if Cease or Robert start showing that same Sox corrosion that tarnished Giolito, Moncada , Eloy, Vaughn, Kopech and others. He's also fucked if he can't magically create some tradable pitching assets using defense and his staff to create something out of mostly nothing's.

This is one high level SNAFU where nobody has the right answers and all ideas are inherently bad because the Sox haven't shown us that they are capable of running a Tampa Bay like organization that stresses low cost high level development of prospects , or do much of anything else right.

This is everything we are getting from the fan base now.

1. We actually are expecting too much for Cease.

2. Cease is worth the high asking price but settle and trade him because something is better than nothing.

3. Start the season with Cease . Hold out for the best trade you can make by counting on a healthy and very good Cease. No further corrosion allowed . Cease will be shiny again.

4. Trade Robert ASAP before he turns into a pumpkin . Sell high before his shiny season gets Sox corrosion.

5. Robert, Jr. is too good to get what he is now truly worth based on his 1 healthy breakout season. Hold him for another year when he'll the model of health and a glorious vision of a shiny nice thing .

6. Getz is doing great. We might be able to win this crappy division if a few things fall our way. I like this new idea of speed, pitching and defense. f*** the HR , give me more Go Go Sox/ Royals championship baseball !

7. We are going to be really bad in 2024. What the f*** is Getz doing ? He hasn't done one thing yet, as far as player transactions , go to improve the future.

8. Hope the Sox are just good enough in the 1st half of 2024 to actually trade half the pitching staff ,Moncada, Robert and Eloy for more prospects.

We are a really traumatized fan base who finally realized that rebuilding with JR in charge is doomed to fail but now have to rebuild with JR still in charge hoping for more shiny happy prospects that can make us shiny, happy fans again... until the corrosion...

 

[SoxBlanco]

Do “inside the box” ideas go in the regular Cease Trade thread and “outside the box” ideas go in this thread?

Just wondering in case I have a trade idea in the future. 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

This is a sad sad place some times. Caulfield is a great Sox fan. He wants to help and has ideas and is brave enough to share his ideas with us jerks he knows will scorn him and laugh at his ideas because we can't express ourselves in any other way than short chaotic bursts of sarcastic derision like cavemen grunting.

Caulfield I think the mistake you are making is thinking the Sox actually want to compete quickly like Jerry told us.

I, too, at first thought trying to get younger established high floor guys with control was more of a sure thing and the Sox could use more tradable assets. So early on in the Cease trade talks I suggested getting a controllable younger player who had already had a good year or 2. After all the Sox are so bad every avenue we turn seems like a dead end. So I figured try to get mix of a tradable controlled player and a prospect for Cease. I forgot the young controllable guy I wanted in return but it wasn't seen by the vocal majority as a good idea.

We saw first hand how even the best prospects are extremely inconsistent in this organization or get injured. We think it's JRs fault for not hiring good scouts and development people and we probably are right . It also could be true that the Sox could be experiencing what other teams do with injuries and inconsistencies of many prospects. But what other choice do we have than to cling to the idea that Cease is a rare commodity worthy of the high asking price as recently described in a fangraphs article ?

Getting top prospects is still viewed as the only way of actually getting in a strong position to be truly competitive again at least in recent competent organizations like the Astros, Tampa Bay, Orioles, Cubs Diamondbacks. 

Despite the way the rebuild crashed and burned,  a bad organization like the Sox managed to get to the playoffs for 2 consecutive years for the 1st time in the franchise history. Those were exciting times and the glitter of top prospects is so very shiny until the corrosion sets in.

The currently deceased rebuild showed us how destructive that corrosion can be when those prospects don't pan out. The corrosion is the nature of prospects, bad development, a bad organization , bad luck. Right now it could be all of those things combined. That makes for a very angry, divided,  and confused  fan base.

Getz isn't calling it a rebuild because his boss says we want to compete as fast as we can . That's the excuse JR made for hiring Getz. Hit the ground running. A new guy from outside the organization will take time to learn everything Getz already knows.

The scary thing is we can't yet get a handle on what Getz is doing for the future of the franchise. Everything he's done so far seems to be based on improving the current rosters defense and pitching at the expense of hitting .

The only thing is it's all very temporary based on creating tradable pitching pieces out of the cheapest arms he could find. How could that go wrong ? It has very little chance of succeeding  but that's how desperately the Sox need more guys who can brings in prospects .

Getz knows it's a rebuild and he has to start from a terrible roster while Hahn got to start with a mediocre roster. Getz and the Sox are fucked if Cease or Robert start showing that same Sox corrosion that tarnished Giolito, Moncada , Eloy, Vaughn, Kopech and others. He's also fucked if he can't magically create some tradable pitching assets using defense and his staff to create something out of mostly nothing's.

This is one high level SNAFU where nobody has the right answers and all ideas are inherently bad because the Sox haven't shown us that they are capable of running a Tampa Bay like organization that stresses low cost high level development of prospects , or do much of anything else right.

This is everything we are getting from the fan base now.

1. We actually are expecting too much for Cease.

2. Cease is worth the high asking price but settle and trade him because something is better than nothing.

3. Start the season with Cease . Hold out for the best trade you can make by counting on a healthy and very good Cease. No further corrosion allowed . Cease will be shiny again.

4. Trade Robert ASAP before he turns into a pumpkin . Sell high before his shiny season gets Sox corrosion.

5. Robert, Jr. is too good to get what he is now truly worth based on his 1 healthy breakout season. Hold him for another year when he'll the model of health and a glorious vision of a shiny nice thing .

6. Getz is doing great. We might be able to win this crappy division if a few things fall our way. I like this new idea of speed, pitching and defense. f*** the HR , give me more Go Go Sox/ Royals championship baseball !

7. We are going to be really bad in 2024. What the f*** is Getz doing ? He hasn't done one thing yet, as far as player transactions , go to improve the future.

8. Hope the Sox are just good enough in the 1st half of 2024 to actually trade half the pitching staff ,Moncada, Robert and Eloy for more prospects.

We are a really traumatized fan base who finally realized that rebuilding with JR in charge is doomed to fail but now have to rebuild with JR still in charge hoping for more shiny happy prospects that can make us shiny, happy fans again... until the corrosion...

I don’t get involved in trade discussions until they are finalized, when I want to learn more about what transpired.

I’m grateful we have Getz who has been patient. I believe the prior regime would have already dealt Cease, perhaps also Eloy, for whatever they considered the best package in December followed by a five week vacation leading up to ST.

I prefer keeping Cease and Robert unless they are literally blown away. We can continue to enjoy the great players while we can each Summer.

Just clinging to hope Getz will be able to make changes to improve drafting, international signings and player development. I liked the first wave of signings announced last week, and the fact they look to be expanding their horizons beyond Cuba, and hopefully spending their full allotment from now on. The last part depends on Jerry allowing Getz to do so.

Hoping the new FO people brought in will help with the domestic draft, and with free agent acquisitions when the current or new owner commits to competing in the future. Hope we don’t have to wait until after a new ballpark as what happened 1986-1989 until the surprise 1990 season and Himes’ core players were promoted at the new park.

[Kyyle23]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

We know you’re not going to provide a trade of your own…apparently everyone prefers a 4-5 year rebuild.

I assume you’ve looked at who is receiving at-bats in the 2024 projected Fangraphs outfield.

 

2023

Luis Robert 5.0

2nd place 1.4 fWAR

2022 

Dalton Varsho 4.8

Jose Abreu 3.8

 

2021

Anderson 4.6

Moncada 4.0

Varsho 2.3 in 95 games    would be roughly 3.5-4.0 extrapolated out for a full season

 

2020 Abreu 2.8  (would have to be projected)

Anderson 2.4  (would have to be projected due to Covid season)

2019

Moncada 5.5

Anderson 4.5

 

Lots of 4.8 fWAR and above seasons in there…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Buddy I’m not contributing to your fever dreams, just laughin and gruntin

[Bob Sacamano]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

This is a sad sad place some times. Caulfield is a great Sox fan. He wants to help and has ideas and is brave enough to share his ideas with us jerks he knows will scorn him and laugh at his ideas because we can't express ourselves in any other way than short chaotic bursts of sarcastic derision like cavemen grunting.

Caulfield I think the mistake you are making is thinking the Sox actually want to compete quickly like Jerry told us.

I, too, at first thought trying to get younger established high floor guys with control was more of a sure thing and the Sox could use more tradable assets. So early on in the Cease trade talks I suggested getting a controllable younger player who had already had a good year or 2. After all the Sox are so bad every avenue we turn seems like a dead end. So I figured try to get mix of a tradable controlled player and a prospect for Cease. I forgot the young controllable guy I wanted in return but it wasn't seen by the vocal majority as a good idea.

We saw first hand how even the best prospects are extremely inconsistent in this organization or get injured. We think it's JRs fault for not hiring good scouts and development people and we probably are right . It also could be true that the Sox could be experiencing what other teams do with injuries and inconsistencies of many prospects. But what other choice do we have than to cling to the idea that Cease is a rare commodity worthy of the high asking price as recently described in a fangraphs article ?

Getting top prospects is still viewed as the only way of actually getting in a strong position to be truly competitive again at least in recent competent organizations like the Astros, Tampa Bay, Orioles, Cubs Diamondbacks. 

Despite the way the rebuild crashed and burned,  a bad organization like the Sox managed to get to the playoffs for 2 consecutive years for the 1st time in the franchise history. Those were exciting times and the glitter of top prospects is so very shiny until the corrosion sets in.

The currently deceased rebuild showed us how destructive that corrosion can be when those prospects don't pan out. The corrosion is the nature of prospects, bad development, a bad organization , bad luck. Right now it could be all of those things combined. That makes for a very angry, divided,  and confused  fan base.

Getz isn't calling it a rebuild because his boss says we want to compete as fast as we can . That's the excuse JR made for hiring Getz. Hit the ground running. A new guy from outside the organization will take time to learn everything Getz already knows.

The scary thing is we can't yet get a handle on what Getz is doing for the future of the franchise. Everything he's done so far seems to be based on improving the current rosters defense and pitching at the expense of hitting .

The only thing is it's all very temporary based on creating tradable pitching pieces out of the cheapest arms he could find. How could that go wrong ? It has very little chance of succeeding  but that's how desperately the Sox need more guys who can brings in prospects .

Getz knows it's a rebuild and he has to start from a terrible roster while Hahn got to start with a mediocre roster. Getz and the Sox are fucked if Cease or Robert start showing that same Sox corrosion that tarnished Giolito, Moncada , Eloy, Vaughn, Kopech and others. He's also fucked if he can't magically create some tradable pitching assets using defense and his staff to create something out of mostly nothing's.

This is one high level SNAFU where nobody has the right answers and all ideas are inherently bad because the Sox haven't shown us that they are capable of running a Tampa Bay like organization that stresses low cost high level development of prospects , or do much of anything else right.

This is everything we are getting from the fan base now.

1. We actually are expecting too much for Cease.

2. Cease is worth the high asking price but settle and trade him because something is better than nothing.

3. Start the season with Cease . Hold out for the best trade you can make by counting on a healthy and very good Cease. No further corrosion allowed . Cease will be shiny again.

4. Trade Robert ASAP before he turns into a pumpkin . Sell high before his shiny season gets Sox corrosion.

5. Robert, Jr. is too good to get what he is now truly worth based on his 1 healthy breakout season. Hold him for another year when he'll the model of health and a glorious vision of a shiny nice thing .

6. Getz is doing great. We might be able to win this crappy division if a few things fall our way. I like this new idea of speed, pitching and defense. f*** the HR , give me more Go Go Sox/ Royals championship baseball !

7. We are going to be really bad in 2024. What the f*** is Getz doing ? He hasn't done one thing yet, as far as player transactions , go to improve the future.

8. Hope the Sox are just good enough in the 1st half of 2024 to actually trade half the pitching staff ,Moncada, Robert and Eloy for more prospects.

We are a really traumatized fan base who finally realized that rebuilding with JR in charge is doomed to fail but now have to rebuild with JR still in charge hoping for more shiny happy prospects that can make us shiny, happy fans again... until the corrosion...

 

“Brave enough?” Lol come on man.

Edited January 27 by Bob Sacamano

[WhiteSox2023]

No, this doesn’t make sense for the simple fact that Varsho has too much service time already and Jerry isn’t going to want the primary return in a Cease trade being someone that he will have to pay money too via salary arbitration or a contract extension.  He and Getz will both want cheap young players with minimal or no service time.

Edited January 27 by WhiteSox2023

[caulfield12]

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2023-01-18/column-padres-are-big-players-in-latin-america
 

This article explains pretty well why we are the opposite of the Padres in every way on the international front…but it has a lot of important lessons for Preller’s success in building the farm system completely within the span of less than one decade.

Note the biggest problem from churning so many prospects through is the Padres use those prospects to trade for major leaguers (KW mode)…but the consequence is almost no cohesion and chemistry despite the sheer amount of talent accumulated because they don’t advance together through the minors and learn how to win together like mid 2010’s Royals and Cubs prospects, or the current Orioles.

I think this article in particular explains the lack of success in the Dominican as well since 2008…as well as the Pacific Rim.

There’s more knowledge contained here than in all of Haber’s quantum computers.

 

It’s almost amazing why no more than 4-6 teams (Dodgers obviously) follow this very simple formula.  Elias and Rays and Braves and Guardians and Brewers as well.

Of the roughly $150-175 million AJ Preller has spent (including the last two consensus international #1 prospects), the biggest success has been Adrian Morejon, arguably.  The sum total of all their fWAR is WELL below Fernando Tatis, Jr., alone.

Details…
(OF Jorge Oña and RHP Michel Baez were among the Padres minor leaguers released this week. Both Cubans were signed during the Padres' $80 million spending spree in the 2016-17 international (signing period), with Oña signing for $7 million and Baez signing for $3 million (Luis Patino, in contrast, signed for $130,000 that year). Injuries played a role in their stunted development and ultimately forced the Padres to take them off the 40-man roster.)

Another example, the Padres blew through their spending cap in 2016, signing Cuban left-handed pitcher Adrian Morejon ($11 million) and Dominican shortstop Luis Almanzar ($4 million) as well as the highly-touted Anderson Espinoza and Jarlin Susana (last piece of first Soto trade).  The Padres paid a hefty penalty ($20 million fine) for their spendthrift ways back then; nowadays there’s a hard international cap and signings like this wouldn’t be possible.)

 

Long story short, they only have to be right once every ten $5-6.5 million signings to still get a positive ROI out of two Andrew Benintendi’s worth of spending over a decade.

Lottery tickets turned into Top Ten members of the farm system transformed into the likes of Juan Soto.  Classic KW here…the Freddy Garcia deal for three prospects stands out in particular now.   Just like finding the next Nvidia, Netflix or Amazon on the stock market.  You get 8 busts, one break even and one generational wealth creator if you’re really lucky.

Except the White Sox have NEVER supplemented June draft picks enough on the international side of things to build up sufficient depth…exposing their second and third string lack of depth like 2021-2023.

Despite TERRIBLE net losses on two Soto trades, Clevinger, Nola and Ty France, they’re once again a consensus Top 5 farm system, rising from #28 almost all the way back to the top in roughly 3-4 years.

Finally, Padres drafting a number of their better prospects outside the Top Ten in the first round…James Wood (traded away), local product Dillon Head for example, just look at the June draft positions of their Top Ten pitching prospects as well…not to mention leveraging CJ Abrams into Soto instead of Nick Madrigal from the same draft being magically “transformed” into Kimbrel.

 

Don’t bother reading this for all I care…simply read the attached article in order to “see the light.”

Edited January 28 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

8 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

“Brave enough?” Lol come on man.

Where’s your trade proposal?

(Feel like Nikki Haley trying to get just one head-to-head debate scheduled, lol.)

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

On 1/26/2024 at 8:32 PM, caulfield12 said:

Lots of rumors the Blue Jays are unhappy with him…and might be available in trade.

He has one more year of control than Cease.

Buying low.   Daulton peaked at 4.8 fWAR just two seasons ago and in the prime of his career.  Everyone in baseball wanted him at that point.  Versatility and athleticism, etc.  Likely less injury risk attached than holding Cease.

 

Now you need to get two players for one to make this really benefit the Sox…and equalize the trade.

 

So my first thought was send over Manoah as well…Bannister will fix him.  High risk, high reward there in buying low twice…with Cease’s value also down.

But it came down to either Orelvis Martinez, Arjun Nimmala, Alan Roden, Addison Barger, Davis Schneider or Brandon Berriera (yet another back end starter projection) as the second piece to make this work from the Getz standpoint.

That leaves Toronto needing more.

A healthy Gregory Santos (this would have to take place mid Spring Training) just might be enough to push it through. Or Kopech. Or both.

 

Toronto gets the best available pitcher on the market with Burnes out and the White Sox can maybe sorta jump start the rebuild by getting a potentially star quality player in Varsho with more control…buying low.

Of course both sides hope for increases in value with Varsho (paid a high price in trade) and White Sox similarly with Cease if they hold onto them.

 

White Sox also won’t or can’t trade Robert until TDL or next offseason.  Having another position player would be the better risk since Cease has had one TJ previously and has pitched a ton since…had that 1.5 mph velo decline, etc.  The durability positive almost makes you think that has to fall apart soon since it’s the White Sox after all.  Everything that can go wrong will go wrong, right?

Shortening the rebuild for current players vs. future prospects is definitely a risk for sure.

 

Toronto really needs to win THIS year, though.  The question is whether they believe Cease and Santos/Kopech would be better than Varsho and shedding a future prospect to get that accomplished.  They also have Ricky Tiedemann to insert into that rotation behind Gausman.

If he can’t catch, his value is extremely diminished. 

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

If he can’t catch, his value is extremely diminished. 

He would obviously play CF after Robert is dealt and be one of the veteran leaders at 28 of the "hastened" rebuild.

Stassi and Maldonado are unlikely to make it through the season anyway.

[GreenSox]

Not a Varsho fan, but I like the thinking of not going "all prospect."

Boston:  Roman Anthony, Grissom, Tanner Houck.

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Not a Varsho fan, but I like the thinking of not going "all prospect."

Boston:  Roman Anthony, Grissom, Tanner Houck.

Whatever they do...it's important to improve the big league team with at least one player as quickly as possible.

Unless they get the ideal prospect haul...see Adam Eaton deal, where two guys were there and Dunning just a couple of years away.  That's unrealistic for Cease, obviously. At least for now.

 

Red Sox and Mariners just seem to have no discernible direction right now, along with the Angels and Rockies.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 1/27/2024 at 10:05 AM, Bob Sacamano said:

“Brave enough?” Lol come on man.

Yes. Tell me the last controversial thing you posted. You and some of your cohorts love to jump on the guys who think and post anything that is different from your own ultra -conservative baseball viewpoints.

You wait to see which direction the wind is blowing then you just go with the flow and bust balls. So brave of you.

Vaughn at many points was viewed as a high quality bat. When he was put in the OF his defensive stats looked adequate. You wouldn't dare use your own eyes and say anything controversial like he has no future in the OF while the majority was saying he looked OK out there.

Basically you post like a coward. You'd be a yes man if you worked for JR.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes. Tell me the last controversial thing you posted. You and some of your cohorts love to jump on the guys who think and post anything that is different from your own ultra -conservative baseball viewpoints.

You wait to see which direction the wind is blowing then you just go with the flow and bust balls. So brave of you.

Vaughn at many points was viewed as a high quality bat. When he was put in the OF his defensive stats looked adequate. You wouldn't dare use your own eyes and say anything controversial like he has no future in the OF while the majority was saying he looked OK out there.

Basically you post like a coward. You'd be a yes man if you worked for JR.

Exactly like Hahn as a GM.

Risk-averse and risk-mitigation.

That's why KW was so much better than him, for that reason alone...Hahn going with all those overpriced over-the-hill veterans instead of having the balls to invest that money into one solitary star player like a Harper or Machado.

 

That same strategy with the Angels/Moreno/Trout/Ohtani or what happened with the Padres/Mets last season serves as a perfect alibi for JR never to take a significant risk again.

Or he can simply argue look what would have happened had they signed Giolito, Anderson, Kopech, Vaughn, etc., to an extension.

[Bob Sacamano]

23 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes. Tell me the last controversial thing you posted. You and some of your cohorts love to jump on the guys who think and post anything that is different from your own ultra -conservative baseball viewpoints.

You wait to see which direction the wind is blowing then you just go with the flow and bust balls. So brave of you.

Vaughn at many points was viewed as a high quality bat. When he was put in the OF his defensive stats looked adequate. You wouldn't dare use your own eyes and say anything controversial like he has no future in the OF while the majority was saying he looked OK out there.

Basically you post like a coward. You'd be a yes man if you worked for JR.

Definitely somewhere in the Cease thread over the last couple months. I just don’t give a s%*# if people agree or not. It’s not that important or matters what any of us think. Anyone can submit a shitty trade proposal anonymously. It’s not that brave. I will admit, I at least give credit to Caulfield proposing an actual deal other than “Sox should trade for Varsho” without saying who Sox should give up in said deal, which sounds very familiar.

So brave…so heroic posting on a message board lmao Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your service over the military overseas. You’re so heroic.

Edited January 29 by Bob Sacamano

[Bob Sacamano]

Idk if Caulfield has had this many responses on this site in the past 10 years which makes me think that was the whole point of this thread lol

[caulfield12]

18 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Idk if Caulfield has had this many responses on this site in the past 10 years which makes me think that was the whole point of this thread lol

I'm not as clever as Greg or Ron, lol...or SportsGuy.  No Profiles in Courage awards for me. 

Long live Josh Outman!

 

If this gets to 591 like one of my Ohtani threads this offseason, I will be pretty shocked.   Almost as shocked as Lions' fans are right now.

Edited January 29 by caulfield12

[TaylorStSox]

He'll be like 31 when the Sox are ready to compete. Great idea!!!

[JoeC]

15 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

I'm not as clever as Greg or Ron, lol...or SportsGuy.  No Profiles in Courage awards for me. 

Long live Josh Outman!

 

If this gets to 591 like one of my Ohtani threads this offseason, I will be pretty shocked.   Almost as shocked as Lions' fans are right now.

...so not shocked at all?

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

He'll be like 31 when the Sox are ready to compete. Great idea!!!

You must not have much faith in Chris Getz if you think fans will patiently wait around until 2027/28 to compete in this division.

Or that he is any better than Hahn at signing Tier B free agents priced twice as high as previously.

Edited January 29 by caulfield12

[JoeC]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You must not have much faith in Chris Getz if you think fans will patiently wait around until 2027/28 in this division.

Or that he is any better than Hahn at signing Tier B free agents priced twice as high as previously.

Trying to get this team to compete in 2024 is a pipe dream.

The moves right now should try to optimize 2026 and 2027 WAR. To me, acquiring Varsho would be paying a premium for "immediate" WAR.

The whole structure of a Cease deal is to give up X amount of 2024 and 2025 WAR for 2*X or 3*X potential WAR in 2025 ~ 2027. Therefore, to me, any trade like this doesn't make sense, where the biggest chunk of WAR you get in return doesn't look that much different in magnitude and peak year than the piece you're giving up.