Sports Guy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 27 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: There’s plenty of ways you can say Ortiz is more useful than Madrigal if you have some experience with their system. He can play short, he’s more likely to stay healthy - “I saw his bat and it played with off the wall power” and that’s all insight we might not have. But Rick Hahn’s horrific development of players and terrible use of his system is my area of expertise. So if you want to try to compare players or say a comp doesn’t work, fine - but don’t use numbers that are garbage, that we know are useless, and then repeat them like they mean something when we are the experts in that part. Nick Madrigals minor league numbers are meaningless. Rick Hahn steered his minor league development as well as a drunken sailor. This would be true if Madrigal was now an all star. Take his minor league numbers off the table or we will keep saying you’re making a useless argument when you bring them up. We are the experts in that part. Ortiz right now only has MiL numbers. So, if you are going to compare the 2 players, which your board is trying to do, that is the set of data we have to go by. Whatever the reasons are, Madrigal wasn’t as good as Ortiz in the minors. Now, I don’t doubt they screwed him up. The Os did that for 25 years. But if you guys want to make the lazy comp, that’s what you have to go by. I don’t even disagree with what you are saying and I don’t believe you have been one of the people making that lazy comp but others are and that is the info you have to use, at least as part of the evaluation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: Ortiz right now only has MiL numbers. So, if you are going to compare the 2 players, which your board is trying to do, that is the set of data we have to go by. Whatever the reasons are, Madrigal wasn’t as good as Ortiz in the minors. Now, I don’t doubt they screwed him up. The Os did that for 25 years. But if you guys want to make the lazy comp, that’s what you have to go by. I don’t even disagree with what you are saying and I don’t believe you have been one of the people making that lazy comp but others are and that is the info you have to use, at least as part of the evaluation. Fine, if you insist his minor league numbers have meaning I want to know which of them did better in a taco eating contest. Until then Ortiz is a failure like Madrigal as Ortiz can’t eat as many tacos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 10 minutes ago, fathom said: They’re very similar players, and if Madrigal played in the minors his age 25 season, probably would have put up insane numbers. No one disliked his time with the Sox more than Harold and I, but he put up ridiculous defensive numbers last year. I know I posted the YouTube highlights from Ortiz time in the majors last year, and it was shocking how similar their hitting styles were. I don’t particular like the fit for the Brewers with Ortiz, as you’re not getting nearly enough power from 3/4 of your future infield in Turang, Ortiz and Black. Well technically last year was his age 24 season, as baseball age is defined what you age up to July 1…he turned 25 a few weeks later. Btw, your point is well taken..maybe Madrigal is good at age 24…or maybe he’s not. Plenty of guys peak in their early 20s and decline after that and it’s not like his instruction was top notch either. Either way, it’s lazy to say they are the same, therefore Ortiz isn’t a good prospect or won’t be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baseball_gal_aly Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Honestly if the Sox got Kjerstad or Cowser instead of the 34th pick I actually think that would have been fair value for Cease. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Ortiz isn't even an O's prospect any more. Why the f*** is this dude still here arguing with Sox fans? 3 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalChiSox Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, baseball_gal_aly said: Honestly if the Sox got Kjerstad or Cowser instead of the 34th pick I actually think that would have been fair value for Cease. So then you actually agree with us that Cease is worth two Top 100 talents+? Because Kjerstad/Cowser is one, Ortiz is another (borderline), and your boy Hall is valued like a Top 100 in terms of SV on BTV. If we take out the 4m for the draft pick and add back in Cowser or Kjerstad (17-20m), that's a net addition of around 14m, so instead of 36m and change, you are proposing BAL to pay us 50m for Cease. I'm glad you are agreeing that we were right with our valuations, aly. Edited February 2 by SoCalChiSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 31 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: Ortiz isn't even an O's prospect any more. Why the f*** is this dude still here arguing with Sox fans? I’m not arguing..I’m discussing and they addressed me as well, so I’m not going to ignore them. Keep crying though. It’s about the only thing you can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalChiSox Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 33 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: Ortiz isn't even an O's prospect any more. Why the f*** is this dude still here arguing with Sox fans? He has poppysox syndrome. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Phenomenal move for the orioles. If this was available for Burnes, there was no argument for either side on making a Cease deal. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EloyJenkins Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 23 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: I’m not arguing..I’m discussing and they addressed me as well, so I’m not going to ignore them. Keep crying though. It’s about the only thing you can do. 648 posts already? HOLEEE SHIIIIIT 1 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baseball_gal_aly Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 7 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said: So then you actually agree with us that Cease is worth two Top 100 talents+? Because Kjerstad/Cowser is one, Ortiz is another (borderline), and your boy Hall is valued like a Top 100 in terms of SV on BTV. If we take out the 4m for the draft pick and add back in Cowser or Kjerstad (17-20m), that's a net addition of around 14m, so instead of 36m and change, you are proposing BAL to pay us 50m for Cease. I'm glad you are agreeing that we were right with our valuations, aly. I always thought that was fair. I thought the Sox were asking for more nor did I think that anyone would offer such a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 7 hours ago, Sports Guy said: I’m not arguing..I’m discussing and they addressed me as well, so I’m not going to ignore them. Keep crying though. It’s about the only thing you can do. Thanks for proving my point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 12 hours ago, EloyJenkins said: 648 posts already? HOLEEE SHIIIIIT LOL, at first I thought that was the thread post count, not his individual post count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 33 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: LOL, at first I thought that was the thread post count, not his individual post count. Dudes in the Hall of Fame… the quiet lonely ignored Hall of Fame that is. That said, he’s in for a much more fun season than we are. ? Damn it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frobby Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 19 hours ago, fathom said: They’re very similar players, and if Madrigal played in the minors his age 25 season, probably would have put up insane numbers. No one disliked his time with the Sox more than Harold and I, but he put up ridiculous defensive numbers last year. I know I posted the YouTube highlights from Ortiz time in the majors last year, and it was shocking how similar their hitting styles were. I don’t particular like the fit for the Brewers with Ortiz, as you’re not getting nearly enough power from 3/4 of your future infield in Turang, Ortiz and Black. They are not very similar players. Ortiz has way more defensive value and significantly better power. Madrigal probably has the better hit tool. Like I said before, I’m not saying Ortiz is certain to turn out better than Madrigal has, but they’re really not analogous at all in terms of skill set. And honestly, I just thought the whole snarky “Nicky Ortiz” thing was juvenile. The tone bothered me more than the substance. Elias said in his press conference today that Milwaukee strongly desired Ortiz and that he had many inquiries about him over the offseason from other teams. And just to say it one more time, I never thought Ortiz would be the feature piece of a Cease trade. I just think you guys were too dismissive of him as the second piece in a deal, though there certainly were other ways to go in a potential trade with the O’s. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey21 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 22 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: Getz had a group of three players he targeted from the O's. He wanted two of them. The O's were only willing to give up one of them. A deal was never going to happen because they were too far away. Ortiz was not one of the three players. Good on Getz for not budging and standing his ground. Kjerstad and Westburg would have been the exact return needed to give up on 2 full seasons of a Cy-Young Candidate to ignite the “re-tool”. Good on Mike Elias for finding a better deal. That’s why he’s built, arguably, the most talented organization in baseball 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 3 hours ago, Frobby said: They are not very similar players. Ortiz has way more defensive value and significantly better power. Madrigal probably has the better hit tool. Like I said before, I’m not saying Ortiz is certain to turn out better than Madrigal has, but they’re really not analogous at all in terms of skill set. And honestly, I just thought the whole snarky “Nicky Ortiz” thing was juvenile. The tone bothered me more than the substance. Elias said in his press conference today that Milwaukee strongly desired Ortiz and that he had many inquiries about him over the offseason from other teams. And just to say it one more time, I never thought Ortiz would be the feature piece of a Cease trade. I just think you guys were too dismissive of him as the second piece in a deal, though there certainly were other ways to go in a potential trade with the O’s. Yeah this has been ridiculous. Joey Ortiz isn’t Nick Madrigal. He can actually play shortstop and he impacts the baseball. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 26 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: Yeah this has been ridiculous. Joey Ortiz isn’t Nick Madrigal. He can actually play shortstop and he impacts the baseball. I have to say, I have appreciated your perspective on things. Have tried to steer people to your twitter account too. What is funny is how respected you seem to be by people on here yet none of them care what you have to say about all of this. It’s very odd. Anyway, good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 34 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: I have to say, I have appreciated your perspective on things. Have tried to steer people to your twitter account too. What is funny is how respected you seem to be by people on here yet none of them care what you have to say about all of this. It’s very odd. Anyway, good stuff. Well thanks. I had very little interest in Joey Ortiz as a main piece in a Cease return for a bunch of reasons. I completely understand why Milwaukee would want him though. Just because he’s expendable for Baltimore, that doesn’t mean he’s not valuable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 2 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: Yeah this has been ridiculous. Joey Ortiz isn’t Nick Madrigal. He can actually play shortstop and he impacts the baseball. Ironically, didn’t Madrigal actually improve? He was pretty mediocre at 2B for the Sox and somehow he played well defensively at 3B for the Cubs last year, even with his awkward mechanics and weak armed throws to 1B. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 On 2/2/2024 at 10:02 AM, fathom said: They’re very similar players, and if Madrigal played in the minors his age 25 season, probably would have put up insane numbers. No one disliked his time with the Sox more than Harold and I, but he put up ridiculous defensive numbers last year. I know I posted the YouTube highlights from Ortiz time in the majors last year, and it was shocking how similar their hitting styles were. I don’t particular like the fit for the Brewers with Ortiz, as you’re not getting nearly enough power from 3/4 of your future infield in Turang, Ortiz and Black. The major difference between Ortiz and Madrigal is there is a bit more size to his frame. I am not a fan of either player but there never was any power potential in Madrigal. He is and was a midget. I think he was 5-6 I pointed out from day one he was never going to hit for any power. Expecting power from a guy with his build and height was stupid. Ortiz has never really hit for power in the minors either so his power is definitely a concern as well but Madrigal approach at the plate is much more advanced he makes way more contact and better contact he just will never hit for anything other than double power because physically he is over-matched. Which is why like I said at the time when we drafted him he would be a wasted pick. I am not surprised at all how he turned out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 3 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: Yeah this has been ridiculous. Joey Ortiz isn’t Nick Madrigal. He can actually play shortstop and he impacts the baseball. Can he hit enough to start? I don't really have high hopes for him as a premium prospect. I'd be fine getting him back but to me his upside is José Iglesias and his sort of floor is John McDonald. To me the big issue with Ortiz isn't the player it's how others view him. I'm fine with taking him back but not as a headliner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 7 hours ago, Frobby said: And just to say it one more time, I never thought Ortiz would be the feature piece of a Cease trade. I just think you guys were too dismissive of him as the second piece in a deal, though there certainly were other ways to go in a potential trade with the O’s. Part of the problem for the White Sox is the mess that they’re in. Milwaukee is in a bad spot this year with Woodruff out, but they regularly have a supply of solid young players and pitchers coming up. If Ortiz is a good player for them for the next 5 years, that’s a big boost for them. Plus, honestly the White Sox can afford more mid level free agents than the Brewers. The Brewers need decent, cheap starters more than the White Sox do right now. If the White Sox get a decent SS and a reliever for Cease, that barely moves the needle for them. The White Sox have time to spare and need guys who make a big difference if they break out. They need a guy who can be an all star in 2027, more than 1 in fact. They are in a spot where they are better off waiting and gambling on a big first half from Cease than taking an offer that doesn’t reshape their org. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 6 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: Well thanks. I had very little interest in Joey Ortiz as a main piece in a Cease return for a bunch of reasons. I completely understand why Milwaukee would want him though. Just because he’s expendable for Baltimore, that doesn’t mean he’s not valuable. Correct. And I agree he shouldn’t have headlined any deal for Cease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 3 hours ago, wrathofhahn said: Can he hit enough to start? I don't really have high hopes for him as a premium prospect. I'd be fine getting him back but to me his upside is José Iglesias and his sort of floor is John McDonald. To me the big issue with Ortiz isn't the player it's how others view him. I'm fine with taking him back but not as a headliner. What do you know about Ortiz and his hitting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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