Timmy U Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 minute ago, zisk said: 6 walks last year in 200 at bats. He'll fit right in here. sheesh? Wow. I knew he was bad, but that is a level of suck I had not reckoned with. OTOH, how mad would you be if your pitcher walked a guy like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Has something happened to him that makes him non-viable? .729 OPS last year. Assuming he is going to be a major leaguer is a big assumption. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: that’s a ton of money to spend on “improving character guys” when it’s hard to see almost any of it making any kind of difference long term. Amd for reference, I hate the idea of calling these guys character guys. Okay, veteran leaders? The team was a clown car in 2023. Rookies not listening to coaches, vets staring down rookies on the field after yet another bone-headed decision. Physical altercations in the clubhouse. Suspensions for on-field BS. I don't even think the animal house clubhouse problems get fixed in one season, but prospects are now graduating to a more stable situation than 2023. Everybody here is in agreement that there was no way this team was getting fixed in one season. Nobody's arguing with the notion of filling the lineup with guys who can catch the ball. They're just not going to pay the $50 million it would take to plug in guys like Duvall at C, 2B, SS and RF. Especially if they think they have guys at AAA who are going to be taking PAs away by August. Cease, Robert, Kopech, Fedde, Santos, Brebbia maybe Soroka if he can fog a mirror by July - that's all that will be flipped. DeJong or Lopez might get slightly more than the proverbial bag of balls. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 5 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Okay, veteran leaders? The team was a clown car in 2023. Rookies not listening to coaches, vets staring down rookies on the field after yet another bone-headed decision. Physical altercations in the clubhouse. Suspensions for on-field BS. I don't even think the animal house clubhouse problems get fixed in one season, but prospects are now graduating to a more stable situation than 2023. Everybody here is in agreement that there was no way this team was getting fixed in one season. Nobody's arguing with the notion of filling the lineup with guys who can catch the ball. They're just not going to pay the $50 million it would take to plug in guys like Duvall at C, 2B, SS and RF. Especially if they think they have guys at AAA who are going to be taking PAs away by August. Cease, Robert, Kopech, Fedde, Santos, Brebbia maybe Soroka if he can fog a mirror by July - that's all that will be flipped. DeJong or Lopez might get slightly more than the proverbial bag of balls. To stress, they had plenty of so-called character guys the last few years. The situation wound up terrible because the org was terrible, not because they were missing these guys. Veterans getting special treatment because they’re veterans and the manager is a twit, veteran players expecting special treatment and whining when they don’t get it, young players who don’t get fair treatment because they’re young - these kinds of things sabotaged the org the last couple years also. The high character veterans were as much or more of a part of the problem than anyone. We should be bloody skeptical about the notion that importing veterans can import leadership if it is missing or even sabotaged internally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: To stress, they had plenty of so-called character guys the last few years. The situation wound up terrible because the org was terrible, not because they were missing these guys. Veterans getting special treatment because they’re veterans and the manager is a twit, veteran players expecting special treatment and whining when they don’t get it, young players who don’t get fair treatment because they’re young - these kinds of things sabotaged the org the last couple years also. The high character veterans were as much or more of a part of the problem than anyone. We should be bloody skeptical about the notion that importing veterans can import leadership if it is missing or even sabotaged internally. Yes, but they have to start somewhere. I think a big generator of chaos was the KW/Hahn dynamic. It seems you're implying that the guys who weren't idiots were the problem. Guys catching the ball has pretty much been identified as the main problem. And Getz has filled holes with glove guys. The fact that they're not beating up their spouses, roiding, sex trafficking, a physical threat to their own teammates, or otherwise causing distractions is a positive, not a negative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 27 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Yes, but they have to start somewhere. I think a big generator of chaos was the KW/Hahn dynamic. It seems you're implying that the guys who weren't idiots were the problem. Guys catching the ball has pretty much been identified as the main problem. And Getz has filled holes with glove guys. The fact that they're not beating up their spouses, roiding, sex trafficking, a physical threat to their own teammates, or otherwise causing distractions is a positive, not a negative. I think that as big of a part of it as any were the head coaches. Obsessed with certain veterans, happy to play favorites, outraged at the notion that baseball is different today than it was 20 years ago. If you put veterans into a toxic place like that, they usually turn just as toxic - and the same manager is still here. If we are wondering why Montgomery has been benched for DeJong 4 times in a week in August and are complaining about how poorly he’s treating his roster and how they still are playing favorites, remember that part of the culture, because that’s who our manager was last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I think that as big of a part of it as any were the head coaches. Obsessed with certain veterans, happy to play favorites, outraged at the notion that baseball is different today than it was 20 years ago. If you put veterans into a toxic place like that, they usually turn just as toxic - and the same manager is still here. If we are wondering why Montgomery has been benched for DeJong 4 times in a week in August and are complaining about how poorly he’s treating his roster and how they still are playing favorites, remember that part of the culture, because that’s who our manager was last year. I think there's a lot going on that is outside of "Chris Getz building a roster". 1) Reinsdorf isn't paying 2 managers. 2) Stadium deal has any team spending on hold. 3) Possible Baltimore-type sale has any new long-term commitments on hold. I believe it's come from on high that Grifol is the manager coming into the year. Maybe he's made any kind of impression on JR that he needs a full shot. So Getz is giving Grifol what he wanted: "leaders who can catch the ball". When they're 40-68 at the tdl, Getz fires him, installs the bench coach, and starts promoting Sosa, Colas, Ramos, Monty, etc. into full time rolls. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: Okay, veteran leaders? The team was a clown car in 2023. Rookies not listening to coaches, vets staring down rookies on the field after yet another bone-headed decision. Physical altercations in the clubhouse. Suspensions for on-field BS. I don't even think the animal house clubhouse problems get fixed in one season, but prospects are now graduating to a more stable situation than 2023. Everybody here is in agreement that there was no way this team was getting fixed in one season. Nobody's arguing with the notion of filling the lineup with guys who can catch the ball. They're just not going to pay the $50 million it would take to plug in guys like Duvall at C, 2B, SS and RF. Especially if they think they have guys at AAA who are going to be taking PAs away by August. Cease, Robert, Kopech, Fedde, Santos, Brebbia maybe Soroka if he can fog a mirror by July - that's all that will be flipped. DeJong or Lopez might get slightly more than the proverbial bag of balls. How many veteran leaders do we need? It feels like the entire team is compromised of veteran leaders at this point. The only way any veteran leadership is imparted is if they start getting jettisoned for young guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 4 hours ago, Snopek said: It sort of feels like year -1 of the rebuild, at least on the offensive side, considering the ages I added to CWS’s reasonable guess at the opening day lineup Average age 30.1 ? Benny is only 29? Shame he plays like he's 5 years older... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 13 minutes ago, Quin said: How many veteran leaders do we need? Any. They had 4 positions to fill. C, 2B, SS and RF. Say they signed Gary Sanchez, Kolten Wong, Amed Rosario and Adam Duvall. That's $40+ million. If they signed Frankie Montas and Luis Silverio on "show-me" contracts, that's $30 million for the two. Would you be going nuts over that team? Are you ordering a season-ticket plan to watch that team that most probably won't perform much better than the Stassi, Lopez, DeJong, Pillar, Flexen, Soroka 2024 White Sox? I think we're all expecting at least Nastrini, Sosa and Colas to move in on DeJong's, Flexen's, Lopez's and Pillar's playing time by August. Maybe even Montgomery, Ramos and Popeye, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: To stress, they had plenty of so-called character guys the last few years. The situation wound up terrible because the org was terrible, not because they were missing these guys. Veterans getting special treatment because they’re veterans and the manager is a twit, veteran players expecting special treatment and whining when they don’t get it, young players who don’t get fair treatment because they’re young - these kinds of things sabotaged the org the last couple years also. The high character veterans were as much or more of a part of the problem than anyone. We should be bloody skeptical about the notion that importing veterans can import leadership if it is missing or even sabotaged internally. All of this means that the character guys were not character guys. The clubhouse environment is by the players not the organization as a whole. Most managers have usially allow the veterans to run it. Especially, in today's game. Very few managers try to control the clubhouse and get a terrible rep if they do. The managers will talk to the veterans about what they want done but not to the whole clubhouse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 This team needs more veteran leaders to show the other veteran leaders how to be better veteran leaders. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 7 minutes ago, Snopek said: This team needs more veteran leaders to show the other veteran leaders how to be better veteran leaders. The team needs veteran leaders that are also good baseball players, not a bunch of veteran leaders that are too old, can’t hit, and mostly flat out suck like the ones Getz acquired. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 42 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Any. They had 4 positions to fill. C, 2B, SS and RF. Say they signed Gary Sanchez, Kolten Wong, Amed Rosario and Adam Duvall. That's $40+ million. If they signed Frankie Montas and Luis Silverio on "show-me" contracts, that's $30 million for the two. Would you be going nuts over that team? Are you ordering a season-ticket plan to watch that team that most probably won't perform much better than the Stassi, Lopez, DeJong, Pillar, Flexen, Soroka 2024 White Sox? I think we're all expecting at least Nastrini, Sosa and Colas to move in on DeJong's, Flexen's, Lopez's and Pillar's playing time by August. Maybe even Montgomery, Ramos and Popeye, too. So Grifol is worthless, because here are all the vet leaders (30+ or will be this year) they've added: - Paul Dejong - Erick Fedde - John Brebbia - Chris Flexen - Martin Maldonado - Max Stassi - Tim Hill Minor league deals - Kevin Pillar - Chad Kuhl - Rafael Ortega - Brett Phillips Obviously they need to fill out Charlotte's roster, so I'm not gonna lose sleep over Ortega and Kuhl, but if Getz thinks that Grifol needs 9 new vet leaders, then fire Grifol instead of spending money that seems harmless in small increments, but begins to add up to an amount that could be used on actual major leaguers - a cardinal sin of the Hahn era. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 2 minutes ago, Quin said: So Grifol is worthless, because here are all the vet leaders (30+ or will be this year) they've added: - Paul Dejong - Erick Fedde - John Brebbia - Chris Flexen - Martin Maldonado - Max Stassi - Tim Hill Minor league deals - Kevin Pillar - Chad Kuhl - Rafael Ortega - Brett Phillips Obviously they need to fill out Charlotte's roster, so I'm not gonna lose sleep over Ortega and Kuhl, but if Getz thinks that Grifol needs 9 new vet leaders, then fire Grifol instead of spending money that seems harmless in small increments, but begins to add up to an amount that could be used on actual major leaguers - a cardinal sin of the Hahn era. I highly doubt they were all signed for that specific reason. It's more about who is gone than who is new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 5 minutes ago, ptatc said: I highly doubt they were all signed for that specific reason. It's more about who is gone than who is new. If you look at the back of their baseball cards, it’s difficult to see any specific reason they were signed. ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 38 minutes ago, ptatc said: All of this means that the character guys were not character guys. The clubhouse environment is by the players not the organization as a whole. Most managers have usially allow the veterans to run it. Especially, in today's game. Very few managers try to control the clubhouse and get a terrible rep if they do. The managers will talk to the veterans about what they want done but not to the whole clubhouse. This should tell us that there's more to building a successful culture on a baseball team than importing a bunch of free agent veterans though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 A rare signing for your 2024 Chicago White Sox....someone I've actually heard of. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 2 hours ago, Timmy U said: That's why I said year 0 and another poster said year -1. They are in the process of tearing stuff down (waiting for contracts to end). I can even begin to imagine when their next competitive team will be. Montgomery looks like an mlb regular. I have hope for Nastrini as a rotation member, then a lot of guys like Eder and Cannon that they can plug in and hopefully hit on 1 or 2. Both Ramos and Quero have mlb regular upside, but are by no means sure things. After that it gets hard to imagine who the next wave really is. I guess I'm saying, enjoy the churros? I look at this as 2018, but without the number of theoretically high ceiling prospects that the Sox thought they had at the time. The only way to get to what they should / could have been in 2021 and beyond is vastly improve player development and scouting. This allows you to draft, sign and trade for more players with high upside like Colson Montgomerys, and less guys like Jacob Gonzalez at the upper end. Also need to vastly improve development of second tier acquisitions to create more solid starters, relievers and role players with lower picks and signings. They also to develop catchers and defensive players so you’re not spending money on Grandals, and your not left with perennial holes. The quick to remedy roster management steps Getz can take is to build as much depth as possible, have a proper roster which can adequately cover all positions defensively, and to ensure and keep a roster of 26 healthy players. Give your medical staff a day or two, not a week or month or two, to move injured players to the IR and bring up reinforcements. Hahn failed at all of this with $60M more per year to spend, and four years of tanking at his disposal to be ready for his parades. Getz has several months and a barren organization of players and many FO holes to fill short and long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, Quin said: So Grifol is worthless, I would have loved for the Sox to have launched him at Getz's press conference. They didn't. I don't think it's because Getz believes that Grifol is the way, the truth and the light. I think Jim Margalus said it sure is possible the White Sox burn through all of these scrap heap pitchers by Memorial day. Then Getz takes his mulligan, and fires Grifol. Maybe Katz. No, I don't believe that "clubhouse culture" is the single most important aspect of all team building. There was a lot of chaos around last year's team, and I think a lot of it has been cleared out. But it's something these guys have to say. I don't see these additions as great because they're all fine, upstanding gentlemen. But the fact they're not raping tweens, starting an on field fight once a month, or have ladies giving interviews about how abusive they are - is a positive. It's certainly not a negative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 2/3/2024 at 3:41 PM, WhiteSox2023 said: The team needs veteran leaders that are also good baseball players, not a bunch of veteran leaders that are too old, can’t hit, and mostly flat out suck like the ones Getz acquired. Hey at least teams acquire washed up veterans who used to be good, Getz is acquiring washed up veterans who were never good. He's cornering the market! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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