WhiteSox2023 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, GreenSox said: Santos is only 23, has a ton of control, and had a really good year last year: low walk and low home run rates. He had value. I understand the need to trade a reliever, but not sure that the Sox extracted top value. The best prospect is a reliever, and only 9 months younger than Santos. And the draft pick - what is that worth? The Sox 2nd and 3rd picks from the last draft are like the 20th ranked prospects in this below average system. But there's nothing really to fear with this trade because the ceiling of what we gave up is basically certain. This is a great trade. The Sox turned Kade McClure into this return. Yes, Kade McClure. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 30 minutes ago, ron883 said: I'll say it again - I fucking love Dipoto's gun-slinging GM ways. You never know what you're going to get as a Mariners fan. Not sure that fanbase is with you on this one… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autumn Dreamin Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 So this was an interesting read: https://www.prospectslive.com/prospects-live/2022/9/14/prefecting-berroa Basically, a prospect/pitching nerd breaking down how he thinks the key to making Berroa the best version of himself (including potentially keeping him as a SP instead of a RP) might lie in changing his slider grip. The change he recommends and the comps for it? Well... Quote Remember when I said I only know of two pitchers in the majors who throw a one-seam slider? Those two pitchers are the MLB fWAR leader for all pitchers, Carlos Rodón, and the AL Cy Young favorite, Dylan Cease, who just added his this year. The one-seam slider hasn’t become popular yet, but for the right pitcher, it can be the most deadly pitch in all of baseball. [...] We know that both Rodón, and Dylan Cease throw from a high arm slot just like Berroa. We know that both of them have premium velocity on both the fastball and slider with ~10 MPH separating the two pitch combo. We know that both throw their slider with low spin-efficiency. They also both throw the four-seam fastball with elite vertical movement. Berroa checks all of those boxes so perhaps he can emulate them? There is only one way to find out. Now it could just be some guy looking at pitch data and dreaming on a prospect he likes....but this particular guy, Tieran Alexander, has since left the prospect-blogging business to join the staff of "an unnamed MLB team" as a consultant, so at least one front office out there is convinced he knows his stuff. Not trying to imply that he's in Chicago of course, but just that he has some decent credibility on the subject and it wouldn't surprise me if the Sox line of thinking on Berroa might be similar given the Cease/Rodon comps (and that he seems to share Katz' belief in the importance of pitch tunneling, since he worked on a SABR Award nominated analysis on the subject). 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) As for what the Mariners dealt away, Berroa, 23, possessed comparable stuff to Santos, but he’s struggled mightily to harness it. After debuting on July 21, Berroa walked three of the eight batters he faced in the Majors, which clouded some trust in leverage moments from Mariners manager Scott Servais. He also had a 14.1% walk rate at Double-A Arkansas, slightly better than his 16.8% clip the year prior but still high. Some have pointed to his command being a focus issue rather than stuff, but he’ll nonetheless need to be in the zone more to be a consistent big league contributor. DeLoach, 25, was Seattle’s second-round pick in the shortened 2020 Draft but has yet to make his MLB debut, though that was likely to come this season after he was added to the 40-man roster in November. The former Texas A&M Aggie slashed .286/.387/.481 (.868 OPS) with 23 homers and 88 RBIs over 138 games last season, all at Triple-A Tacoma. But he also carried a 27.8% K rate that left some scouts pondering how he’d handle Major League pitching. As for the Draft pick, it’s the first that the Mariners have traded under president of baseball operations Jerry Dipoto and general manager Justin Hollander. The two have been leery of dealing such picks, underscoring the value they see in Santos. https://www.mlb.com/news/gregory-santos-traded-to-mariners-from-white-sox Analysis mostly coming from M’s perspective on upside of Santos. Edited February 4 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 I would not put any money on Santos staying healthy next year. This reminds me of the Mike Sirotka trade. The Sox selling high on knowingly damaged goods. But this return will likely be better than an obese and drunk David Wells for one year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 I like the deal. Doubt deloach can become anything but if berroa improves his command only a little he could become a good reliever. Some extra bonus money is also great, maybe that means they can overslot a solid HS prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2024/2/3/24060696/seattle-mariners-bullpen-trade-rhp-gregory-santos-chicago-white-sox-prelander-berroa-zach-deloach#comments Mariners’ fans seem to love this trade (see comments section)…forgetting the fact that he was available for a song just one short year ago. They’re definitely not that high on either prospect, more upset about draft capital, although they must not realize how bad the Sox have done with second and third round picks compared to the Mariners historically. Fans acting like they just clinched the AL West. That’s laughable. Edited February 4 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Andres Munoz 99.2 Gregory Santos 98.8 Matt Brash 98.2 Gabe Speier 95.2 Trent Thornton 94.0 Austin Voth 93.3 Taylor Saucedo 93.0 Carlos Vargas 99.5 Jackson Kowar 96.9 Ty Adcock 96.5 Ty Buttrey 96.2 (2020) Cody Bolton 95.3 Mauricio Llovera 94.6 Sean Poppen 94.6 (2022) Eduardo Bazardo 94.3 Heath Hembree 93.6 Remember the White Sox similarly having the highest velo pen in baseball recently not exactly working out all that well!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 7 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: I would not put any money on Santos staying healthy next year. This reminds me of the Mike Sirotka trade. The Sox selling high on knowingly damaged goods. But this return will likely be better than an obese and drunk David Wells for one year. Had to laugh. Just 2 days ago I saw him on TV pitching something or other.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 10 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: And given his "forearm soreness" that shut him down in September he could also be heading for TJS. Maybe so, but then again, how have the Sox used their last 2 2nd round draft picks: injured college pitchers. im all for trading him; just not enamored with this trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 4 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Mariners’ fans seem to love this trade (see comments section)…forgetting the fact that he was available for a song just one short year ago. Funnier still are MLBTR comments. Dudes shrugging off losing Berroa, saying that if the Mariners can't fix him, the Sox sure can't. When in fact, he was traded to the White Sox for a guy that the Sox "fixed". Gotta love the logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Baseball Prospectus had DeLoach ranked 11th & Berroa ranked 15th. Here are the write-ups for those interested: Quote 11. Zach DeLoach, OF (Triple-A Tacoma) One of my favorite moments of scouting in the 2023 season was sitting at a spring training game and overhearing a couple Mariners front office employees discussing DeLoach during the lefty’s plate appearance. “I love his swing,” remarked one, “it’s beautiful.” DeLoach struck out on three straight swings and misses. More than anything, that story highlights the genuine challenges of scouting a player against their metrics. DeLoach’s swing is indeed pretty, as his lefty hack resembles a quintessential modern swing, crafted to elevate and celebrate with natural strength and athleticism. When DeLoach connects, the type of contact is marvelous, as he lines and lofts quality contact consistently. The problem is that DeLoach does not make enough contact in the zone to consistently join the party. His 23 big flies in the Pacific Coast League clear the baseline, but striking out nearly 28% of the time—with a sub-80% zone-contact rate—as a 24-year-old in the PCL is hard to properly celebrate. When he’s in a groove, DeLoach can look like a balanced contributor, with arm enough for right field and solid range and foot speed. A second trip to Tacoma seems in the cards for the former Aggie to establish himself at age 25, but DeLoach is a near-guarantee to debut in the majors this season. Quote 15. Prelander Berroa, RHP (Seattle Mariners) For many years, pop-up arms like Berroa peppered this list, as Seattle’s developmental track skewed heavily towards tweaking aspects of a pitcher’s repertoire to great success. Now, Berroa is the lone high-minors bullpen arm present. Triple-digits heat is not unheard of for the right-hander, who debuted in 2023 and appeared in a pair of games, but spent most of the year as a bullpen ace for Double-A Arkansas. As is Seattle’s wont, they kept their pitching prospects predominantly in the friendlier confines of the Texas League in lieu of exposing them to brutalization in the PCL, but as such, Berroa’s four-seam/slider combo is largely tested on hitters who are hopelessly overmatched. His control is largely theoretical, but the stuff is good enough to miss bats and be effective. However, only when he can be expected to hit his target slightly does Seattle appear willing to give him more significant run beyond the Travelers. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zisk Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 14 hours ago, WestEddy said: I think Sosa has a clear shot at playing time if his bat comes alive. I also think Getz may have wanted to secure some OF dudes before looking for anybody giving Colas that come-hither look. I love posters that use awesome phrases like "come hither". 12 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: You must’ve loved gunslinger Kenny then. 12 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: You must’ve loved gunslinger Kenny then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) I haven't seen anything in either trade thread about it but it's looking less and less likely with every trade that Whit Merrifield will be coming to the Sox. Edited February 4 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I haven't seen anything in either trade thread about it but it's looking less and less likely with every trade that Whit Merrifield will not be coming to the Sox. They technically could still bring him in for 2B, with Lopez being the backup IF and Sosa going to Charlotte. Although, I don't think they really have the payroll wiggle room to bring him in. Edited February 4 by CWSpalehoseCWS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 20 hours ago, hi8is said: Can someone smarter than I am tell me about the two we got? https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2024/2/1/24055811/2024-seattle-mariners-farm-system-overview-tier-4-emerson-hancock-ryan-bliss-samad-taylor DeLoach is 17 and Berroa 15 in Mariners farm rankings by Lookout Landing. Article written Feb 1,2024 with decent writeups on both. Edited February 4 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 13 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: https://www.lookoutlanding.com/2024/2/1/24055811/2024-seattle-mariners-farm-system-overview-tier-4-emerson-hancock-ryan-bliss-samad-taylor DeLoach is 17 and Berroa 15 in Mariners farm rankings by Lookout Landing. Article written Feb 1,2024 with decent writeups on both. And the draft pick is higher than any comp pick for giving a QO would be, so there’s that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxJon Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Feel like we could have got more than a reliever, 4th OF, and a draft pick, but this seems fair-ish to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, ChiSoxJon said: Feel like we could have got more than a reliever, 4th OF, and a draft pick, but this seems fair-ish to me Given that Santos may not even be pitching this year I'm pleasantly surprised the Sox got what they did for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 29 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: Given that Santos may not even be pitching this year I'm pleasantly surprised the Sox got what they did for him. Don't you think Seattle checked the medicals prior to agreeing to the trade? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmony Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) 23 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: This is a great trade. The Sox turned Kade McClure into this return. Yes, Kade McClure. FWIW the Seattle Mariners acquired Prelander Berroa in May 2022 for 28-year-old journeyman infielder Donovan Walton. With five years of team control, Seattle can be patient with Gregory Santos a la current closer Andres Munoz, whom the Mariners acquired in August 2020 when Munoz lost the entire season to Tommy John surgery. The trade could work out for the White Sox and the Mariners. Edited February 5 by harmony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 13 hours ago, GreenSox said: Maybe so, but then again, how have the Sox used their last 2 2nd round draft picks: injured college pitchers. im all for trading him; just not enamored with this trade. 1M + reasons why that is more valuable then the player taken with the pick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) 4 hours ago, ptatc said: Don't you think Seattle checked the medicals prior to agreeing to the trade? Toronto supposedly checked the medicals on Mike Sirotka as well back in 2001. How did that turn out? Doctors aren't infallible and neither are agents trying to make sure their clients get paid. Bottom line until Santos goes out there and shows he can pitch and for longer then a week or two, you simply don't know anything other than he was shut down in September for the dreaded "forearm soreness" which has shut down and led to TJS in countless pitchers including Rodon, Dunning and Martin for the White Sox in recent years. He may be perfectly OK...he may not. Again we simply don't know until he proves it do we? Which is why given his uncertain status I'm surprised the Sox got what they did for him (and I'm pleased they did.) Edited February 5 by Lip Man 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 52 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: Toronto supposedly checked the medicals on Mike Sirotka as well back in 2001. How did that turn out? Doctors aren't infallible and neither are agents trying to make sure their clients get paid. Bottom line until Santos goes out there and shows he can pitch and for longer then a week or two, you simply don't know anything other than he was shut down in September for the dreaded "forearm soreness" which has shut down and led to TJS in countless pitchers including Rodon, Dunning and Martin for the White Sox in recent years. He may be perfectly OK...he may not. Again we simply don't know until he proves it do we? Which is why given his uncertain status I'm surprised the Sox got what they did for him (and I'm pleased they did.) Don't forget Liam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 5 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: Toronto supposedly checked the medicals on Mike Sirotka as well back in 2001. How did that turn out? Doctors aren't infallible and neither are agents trying to make sure their clients get paid. Bottom line until Santos goes out there and shows he can pitch and for longer then a week or two, you simply don't know anything other than he was shut down in September for the dreaded "forearm soreness" which has shut down and led to TJS in countless pitchers including Rodon, Dunning and Martin for the White Sox in recent years. He may be perfectly OK...he may not. Again we simply don't know until he proves it do we? Which is why given his uncertain status I'm surprised the Sox got what they did for him (and I'm pleased they did.) So once in how many decades and you are going with that? And I believe he did pitch. No doctors aren't infallible hence it's called the practice of medicine. I'll wager he pitches this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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