WestEddy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 31 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Let’s agree to disagree here. If you feel we have a surplus of starting pitching, then I don’t think fundamentally we see eye to eye on where things currently stand. I'm still not sure where the disagreement is. You're complaining that we don't have a "surplus" of pitchers, and that what small collection of problematic starters we have in the system, Mena is in the "2nd tier". I guess you're afraid that if you call Mena an actual good pitching prospect, you'll get laughed at, and then it will all be over. I wish you'd just say what you mean instead of couching it all in "being terrified", and "struggling" to understand what's going on. It's pretty easy to see where Getz is going with this. The pretending to be befuddled and going through some anxiety attack is all a game to rope someone in to a conversation so you can find all their words "laughable", and attack their views. Just call me a dimwit, tell me you baseball better than I do and be done with it. This whole dance is passive-aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 38 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Jake Paul or Burger? Did the same thing coming up with Hector Mendoza instead of Santiago in another thread. Jake Peter was traded in the 3-way that brought Joachim Soria, and commenters screamed over at SouthSide Sox (mostly SoxMachine guys, now). Just like they screamed about trading Hector Santiago for Adam Eaton. You've got to give up somebody to get somebody. If Barfield's wrong, and Fletcher is a dud, then it's a bad trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, WestEddy said: Ho hum. You're making a bunch of assertions, then backing off of them, so it's like you want to complain about this trade for engagement, but you don't really want to own any of the things you're typing. I'm not sure how you find the phrase "surplus of pitching" funny, how you asserted all along that Mena has question marks, and is only in the "2nd tier" of a laughable collection of .... ha-ha, get this .... starting pitchers!! LOL. ... but we can't trade a guy who is in the 2nd tier of a bunch of laughable "pitching prospects", because he's part of a numbers game. You're playing word games. But hey, that's besides the point. What in the f*** are you talking about? What assertion have I backed off of? I just don’t think that this group of pitching prospects represents some sort of surplus when our major league rotation has zero guys controllable beyond the 2025 season. Never once referred to them as “laughable”, but misconstruing statements appears to be par for the course with you. But for perspective, we kicked off our previous rebuild with basically eight 50 FV and above pitching prospects. Several of these kids peaked out at 60 FV type prospects. The talent gap between that group and this one is tremendous and that previous group didn’t exactly provide us with a surplus of pitching. That all may change after potential Cease & Robert trades, but the current group is not nearly deep enough IMO to be trading from and feeling good about it. Again, this is just my opinion. It’s weird that my opinion is so triggering for you, but I can assure you I don’t complain about trades for “engagement”…lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxBlanco Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: What in the f*** are you talking about? What assertion have I backed off of? I just don’t think that this group of pitching prospects represents some sort of surplus when our major league rotation has zero guys controllable beyond the 2025 season. Never once referred to them as “laughable”, but misconstruing statements appears to be par for the course with you. But for perspective, we kicked off our previous rebuild with basically eight 50 FV and above pitching prospects. Several of these kids peaked out at 60 FV type prospects. The talent gap between that group and this one is tremendous and that previous group didn’t exactly provide us with a surplus of pitching. That all may change after potential Cease & Robert trades, but the current group is not nearly deep enough IMO to be trading from and feeling good about it. Again, this is just my opinion. It’s weird that my opinion is so triggering for you, but I can assure you I don’t complain about trades for “engagement”…lol. I think what he was trying to say is that you claimed Mena falls into the category of pitching prospects that we have quite a few of. So in that regard, we do have a surplus of those types of guys. So why not turn one of them into an outfielder when we have very few OF prospects? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 51 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Fletcher has power. His first 3 seasons will be during his peak. Nobody's claiming they can win with no power at the corners. You've staked out a ridiculous strawman to be right about. And the first two and likely third season will all be losing White Sox baseball teams. In 2021, I cared about replacing Adam Eaton and Jake Lamb and Brian Goodwin and Andrew Vaughn and Gavin Sheets in RF because wins and losses actually mattered in a contention season. Wins and losses are not the priority in 2024. When you have a contending team, sacrificing youth for veterans for final pieces can be justified. For the 2024 White Sox, long term needs are primary, short term production secondary. Spending money on short term FA doesn't impact future White Sox baseball, but dumping young prospects is harmful. Just play a guy who can adequately or better cover RF. If Colas isn't ready, it is not a huge difference whether it's Pillar or Phillips or DeLoach or even Whit Merrifield or Eloy or Billy Hamilton. Don't even care if it's Fletcher if he was a waiver claim or FA signing. Counting wildly inflated PCL stats as power is a stretch. He would be lucky to hit double digit home runs in a season even in HR friendly ballparks like Arizona or the Sox. Several comparisons in this thread to Adam Eaton are ridiculous. Eaton was an established ML hitter with a 5.2 bWAR season under his belt and over 200 MLB games played before entering his age 26 and 27 seasons. This guy was Arizona's sixth best outfielder at best, has 102 career plate appearances. If they thought anything of him, if they thought his .791 OPS and .377 BABIP was sustainable he would have continued playing last season. Neither are, and he will have trouble contributing once ML pitchers actually focus on his weaknesses vs. prioritizing other hitters in the lineup. It's the same as pitchers handing Grandal 87 walks in 2021 6 hole, to focus on getting Leury, Lamb, Mendick, Madrigal and the other poor bottom third hitters in the White Sox lineup. Grandal had 6 less walks the next two seasons combined despite having more plate appearances in both years. He put up empty walk stats not because he was some reincarnation of Barry Bonds, but rather because there was no risk in walking him to clog up the bases with three below MLB quality hitters behind him on a regular basis. If I managed against Luis Robert this season, he'd lead the league in walks. Take your chances with the next guy, be it Yoan or Eloy or anyone else. Since 2/3 of baseball aren't contending, that won't happen, but in a meaningful game it would be done on a regular basis. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: I'm still not sure where the disagreement is. You're complaining that we don't have a "surplus" of pitchers, and that what small collection of problematic starters we have in the system, Mena is in the "2nd tier". I guess you're afraid that if you call Mena an actual good pitching prospect, you'll get laughed at, and then it will all be over. I wish you'd just say what you mean instead of couching it all in "being terrified", and "struggling" to understand what's going on. It's pretty easy to see where Getz is going with this. The pretending to be befuddled and going through some anxiety attack is all a game to rope someone in to a conversation so you can find all their words "laughable", and attack their views. Just call me a dimwit, tell me you baseball better than I do and be done with it. This whole dance is passive-aggressive. Buddy, I don’t think I “baseball” better than anyone. I just disagree with your claim that we have a surplus of pitching. You seem to be taking this back & forth way too personal when it’s just standard message board debate. I have zero problem with you or anyone for that matter attacking my opinions…god knows I’ve had plenty of dumb ones in the past. I don’t like it when people try to misconstrue what others are saying though and you keep doing just that. As for Mena, sure I’ll call him a good prospect. I think me not liking the trade would already imply that, but if it needs to be written so be it (hopefully no one makes fun of me too much!). As for the “second tier” comment you seem to be anchored on, I would place him in a tier with guys like Eder, Pallette, & Cannon. That doesn’t make him a bad prospect, but simply puts him behind Schultz & Nastrini in terms of status. Also, Mena having flaws like a mediocre fastball doesn’t make him a bad prospect either….it just puts him in that second tier. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 36 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said: I think what he was trying to say is that you claimed Mena falls into the category of pitching prospects that we have quite a few of. So in that regard, we do have a surplus of those types of guys. So why not turn one of them into an outfielder when we have very few OF prospects? We have multiple 45 FV pitching prospects…I’d say four of them. However, if you look at the bust rate on prospects like these, that’s really not all that much. It’s a numbers game and IMO we don’t have enough of them. And to be fully transparent, I wouldn’t disagree that our farm is even weaker in terms of OF talent. I just wouldn’t rob from our minor league pitching supply to get it. And if we felt it was key to trade Mena, I’d prefer moving him for a younger, higher ceiling OF prospect. Obviously not a popular take here, but it’s how I feel given where we are at in our rebuild. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: What in the f*** are you talking about? What assertion have I backed off of? I just don’t think that this group of pitching prospects represents some sort of surplus when our major league rotation has zero guys controllable beyond the 2025 season. Never once referred to them as “laughable”, but misconstruing statements appears to be par for the course with you. But for perspective, we kicked off our previous rebuild with basically eight 50 FV and above pitching prospects. Several of these kids peaked out at 60 FV type prospects. The talent gap between that group and this one is tremendous and that previous group didn’t exactly provide us with a surplus of pitching. That all may change after potential Cease & Robert trades, but the current group is not nearly deep enough IMO to be trading from and feeling good about it. Again, this is just my opinion. It’s weird that my opinion is so triggering for you, but I can assure you I don’t complain about trades for “engagement”…lol. This is stupid. Nevermind. Edited February 4 by WestEddy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Baseball Prospectus write-up on Fletcher. They have him as the 9th ranked prospect in the Diamondbacks system. Quote 9. Dominic Fletcher Pos: OF Born: 1997-09-02 B: Left T: Left H: 5′ 6″ W: 185 lbs. History: Drafted in the second round of the 2019 draft, University of Arkansas; signed for $700,000 Previous Rank: #17 (org) The Report: The last remaining piece of the Paul Goldschmidt deal—Fletcher was picked with the comp round pick St. Louis sent over—Fletcher made his major league debut in 2023 and looked like a good bench outfielder or fringe starter, which has been his ultimate projection on these lists for the last few years. He has obvious, leverageable major-league skills. He’s mashed righties his entire pro career—conversely he should probably never see a major-league southpaw—and can play all three outfield spots despite fringe at best speed. Well, perhaps a bit more context around “mashed” is needed. Fletcher is never going to hit for a ton of power. He hits the ball on the ground a bit too much, and the contact in the air isn’t incredibly loud. He’s a smaller guy who is mostly looking to stay level and work back up the middle. His contact rates suggest that is a sustainable strategy, and Fletcher is strong enough to sneak 10+ bombs, so he’s not entirely swinging a wet noodle. He’s a solid defender even in center, so could suffice as the long side of a platoon on the right roster. Fletcher is aggressive both in and out of the zone, although his chase issues tend to lead to that low-quality ground ball contact rather than outright swing-and-miss. Given the lack of plus secondary skills, he has some tweener risk, but little left to prove in the minors and should be the kind of player you are happy to find 350—platoon-leveraged—at-bats for on a good team. OFP: 50 / Average regular or good fourth outfielder Variance: Medium. This is a batting-average/contact rate driven profile with platoon issues. Fletcher isn’t going to beat out a lot of those ground balls given his foot speed, so the approach and bat control will need to tighten up some next time around in the bigs to be more than an up-and-down bench outfielder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Baseball Prospectus write-up on Fletcher. They have him as the 9th ranked prospect in the Diamondbacks system. He’s going to turn into peak Adam Eaton and you are going to fall in love with his grindiness. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 11 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: He’s going to turn into peak Adam Eaton and you are going to fall in love with his grindiness. I hope he does! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 35 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: We have multiple 45 FV pitching prospects…I’d say four of them. However, if you look at the bust rate on prospects like these, that’s really not all that much. It’s a numbers game and IMO we don’t have enough of them. And to be fully transparent, I wouldn’t disagree that our farm is even weaker in terms of OF talent. I just wouldn’t rob from our minor league pitching supply to get it. And if we felt it was key to trade Mena, I’d prefer moving him for a younger, higher ceiling OF prospect. Obviously not a popular take here, but it’s how I feel given where we are at in our rebuild. Lance Lynn has had one good year in his thirties, was given $97M over seven years including $10M this offseason despite the fact he has three playoff seasons over the same period with double digit ERAs. Even mediocre pitching is valuable, much more so than 4th - 5th OF types you can pick up each and every season at or slightly above the ML minimum. If he was 22-23 and possibly project into a viable everyday starter, I would have honestly still preferred Mena, but wouldn't have longer term concerns in terms of Getz' strategy. This deal might work out net net, but the upside clearly is with Arizona. Best case scenario he performs well as a platoon RF and he can be flipped this or next year for a decent prospect or two, which is what they had with Mena with the potential to be a cost controlled #3 - #5 starter profile for a contending team in 2026/2027. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 55 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: He’s going to turn into peak Adam Eaton and you are going to fall in love with his grindiness. If the comps have to be former Sox, I am getting a Conor Gillaspie vibe so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: This is stupid. Nevermind. Best post of the day. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) https://bleacherreport.com/articles/219091-white-sox-top-10-bust-prospects-of-the-last-20-years This list is ridiculous, but the 1998-2001 seasons had AT LEAST 10-12 pitchers ranked at 45+ FV and above. We’re not ANYWHERE close to this group or the 2017-2019 pitching ranks. 2000 system was consensus #1 in the game, also headlined by Joe Borchard and Crede Look at the bust rate. Matt Ginter, Aaron Myette, Barcelo, Jason Stumm, Kris Honel, Snyder, Brian West, Purvis, Karchner made it to an extent but fell apart/traded Jason Bere, Wright, Baldwin, Biddle, Parque, Rauch, Guerrier guys who actually made it Josh Fogg, Kip Wells, Buehrle, Garland There was another fringe top ten guy who ended up with CLE whose name is eluding me… Edited February 4 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 48 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/219091-white-sox-top-10-bust-prospects-of-the-last-20-years This list is ridiculous, but the 1998-2001 seasons had AT LEAST 10-12 pitchers ranked at 45+ FV and above. We’re not ANYWHERE close to this group or the 2017-2019 pitching ranks. 2000 system was consensus #1 in the game, also headlined by Joe Borchard and Crede Look at the bust rate. Matt Ginter, Aaron Myette, Barcelo, Jason Stumm, Kris Honel, Snyder, Brian West, Purvis, Karchner made it to an extent but fell apart/traded Jason Bere, Wright, Baldwin, Biddle, Parque, Rauch, Guerrier guys who actually made it Josh Fogg, Kip Wells, Buehrle, Garland There was another fringe top ten guy who ended up with CLE whose name is eluding me… 22 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) 7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: 22 Why don’t you also provide this superb service for SSHM, lol? Apparently you would likely agree we have enough quality young pitching, since 22 wasn’t even enough? Kevin Beirne makes it 23. It would take Loiaza/Contreras, Freddy Garcia, McCarthy and El Duque to push them over the top five years later. Edited February 5 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxJon Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 LOVED Mena's upside, but he may never even make it....Fletcher seems to be an average starting OF...which is scarce on this roster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Who would take the ENTIRE 2024 White Sox organizational roster of minor league pitchers as of today over: Kopech Giolito Dunning Cease Victor Diaz their FV’s aggregated on the day/s they were traded for? Nobody. Not one person on this board. Which goes to show how long and far the road is with only Cease and Robert left to trade and no Top 5 picks either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 2 hours ago, Balta1701 said: If the comps have to be former Sox, I am getting a Conor Gillaspie vibe so far. No. Your vibe is wrong. He is the second coming of this guy… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Future Sox podcast live now talking about the recent trades with James Fox and Ian Eskridge on YouTube. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac9001 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 11 hours ago, WestEddy said: The original comment of mine you responded to was that Fletcher isn't a "replacement player". He's got a good glove, and has hit at every level of the minors. By picking a single lofty stat, and saying he'll never repeat it, you're not making my comment wrong. His expected batting average was .225. In his limited big league at bats the only thing he's demonstrated is incredible luck. It's not just a single loft stat, it's the single best indicator of sustainable success. If you take a walk or hit a home run the outcome is not on doubt. Make weak contact (which he did a lot of) and in a small sample size the range of probabilities in incredibly wide. His xwOBA trended down with each increment AB. It's likely with another 100 PAs his average would have reverted to his expected numbers. Moving past his good fortunes at the plate he (on very limited opportunities) only measured out to to 30 percentile on sprint speed. Which is likely an indicator of below average range. By comparison Robert was in the 84 percentile. He may have below average sprint speed for an OF, he would be near the bottom as a CFer. Thus significantly reducing his expected FV if he's not a viable option at CF. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 I think I like this trade now. Getz basically wins the trade pretty easily and Arizona is totally okay with that. They are fine gambling on a chance to REALLY win the trade down the line because harnessing some pitching will be way more valuable. But it’s risky. Getz gets the safe win, for now. We might have a real RFer for his whole prime cheap. I’m okay with this. It’s only been since Mags 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 37 minutes ago, Jerksticks said: I think I like this trade now. Getz basically wins the trade pretty easily and Arizona is totally okay with that. They are fine gambling on a chance to REALLY win the trade down the line because harnessing some pitching will be way more valuable. But it’s risky. Getz gets the safe win, for now. We might have a real RFer for his whole prime cheap. I’m okay with this. It’s only been since Mags I like this move more if Benintendi wasn’t on the roster. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 41 minutes ago, Jerksticks said: I think I like this trade now. Getz basically wins the trade pretty easily and Arizona is totally okay with that. They are fine gambling on a chance to REALLY win the trade down the line because harnessing some pitching will be way more valuable. But it’s risky. Getz gets the safe win, for now. We might have a real RFer for his whole prime cheap. I’m okay with this. It’s only been since Mags Eaton and Avi both had good to great individual seasons. You have to go all the way back to Dye for someone who could hit and throw...just really lost a lot of range when he broke his leg. He was always a really big guy, but he moved much better with the Braves and Royals. We got the second half of his career. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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