Sox trade Cristian Mena to Arizona for OF Dominic Fletcher

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It terrifies me because Getz doesn’t appear to value power all that much and we are probably going to get the least amount of HRs in the corner OF spots as any team in baseball.

So what . The Sox are going to suck anyway. Do you expect Getz to be able to find power hitting prospects who are generally the highest ranked prospects in baseball for the crap thats on his 40 right now ? At the stage the Sox and the farm system are at right now you're incrementally building .

Cease and Robert are the only 2 guys who can give you the high upside prospects. Apparently teams are hugging those guys for some odd reason . Oh yeah I forgot, those guys are prize possessions.

You need to be a lot more patient. Rome was not built in a day. There's not a whole lot we can glean from these early deals that points to a longer term strategy except for wanting better defense. Right now he's doing what he thinks is best to make his pitching staff more valuable and tradable while giving prospects more minor league development time. He's also working under some strict financially constraints which severely limits his moves. Cheap gloves who can't hit and Bannister magic to fix short term pitching assets and trade them is pretty much the only short term plan they could come up with given financial constraints.

You'll get a power hitting prospect when Cease is traded unless he gets hurt or can't at least find a strong middle ground between his 2022 and 2023 seasons.

[Tnetennba]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How many HRs do you expect to get from him and Benintendi next year?  If you put the baseline at 25, I’m probably taking the under and that’s pretty terrible output for a corner OF.  For example, the average team got 43 HRs out of their corner OF spots and the 75th percentile was at 37.5 HRs.  Only two teams got less than 25 HRs out of their corner OFs and that was us and the Guardians.

It’s really hard to squint and see 25, let alone 40+.  Add in Vaughn’s subpar bat at a power position and the lack of power becomes more alarming. 

[ChiSox59]

17 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How many HRs do you expect to get from him and Benintendi next year?  If you put the baseline at 25, I’m probably taking the under and that’s pretty terrible output for a corner OF.  For example, the average team got 43 HRs out of their corner OF spots and the 75th percentile was at 37.5 HRs.  Only two teams got less than 25 HRs out of their corner OFs and that was us and the Guardians.

Sox also get a lot more homers from their CF than 90% of teams. You can’t just ignore that. 

[WestEddy]

40 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It terrifies me because Getz doesn’t appear to value power all that much and we are probably going to get the least amount of HRs in the corner OF spots of any team in baseball.

Getz doesn't value power so much that he will try to bury a garbage glove in LF or RF in order to get power. Yes, I agree with you on that. So what you're looking for is at least a 4-tool OF, and those are either going for $10+ million, or even Dylan Cease can't pluck somebody's at least 4-tool OF out of their minors. 

We'll either try to catch lighting in a bottle with Rafael Ortega, or someone like that, or get a project like DeLoach where, if we can fix his swing, you have a nice hitter who won't embarrass himself in the field. 

I think Lenyn Sosa can play his way into the lineup, and he can run into a dozen, or so. At some point, Yoan Moncada, Eloy Jimenez and Andrew Vaughn are going to have to pull on their big boy pants and live up to their billing. 

[ptatc]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Getz doesn't value power so much that he will try to bury a garbage glove in LF or RF in order to get power. Yes, I agree with you on that. So what you're looking for is at least a 4-tool OF, and those are either going for $10+ million, or even Dylan Cease can't pluck somebody's at least 4-tool OF out of their minors. 

We'll either try to catch lighting in a bottle with Rafael Ortega, or someone like that, or get a project like DeLoach where, if we can fix his swing, you have a nice hitter who won't embarrass himself in the field. 

I think Lenyn Sosa can play his way into the lineup, and he can run into a dozen, or so. At some point, Yoan Moncada, Eloy Jimenez and Andrew Vaughn are going to have to pull on their big boy pants and live up to their billing. 

I disagree that we know Getz doesn't value power. He doesn't value it right now with a barren team and a poor minor league system. This is just his first year of a significant change in the FO. I think we can all agree this was a bad defensive team and acquiring defense fist players is cheaper and a quicker way to start retoolong the team. 

As was stated above. This is year one. Let's see what his targets are as he progresses. 

[GreenSox]

Yea being stuck with Benintendi kind of fogs up some interesting scenarios that the acquisition of Fletcher brings to stretch the roster.

And he's here for 4 more years, and probably undumpable for at least another 2 years.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So what . The Sox are going to suck anyway. Do you expect Getz to be able to find power hitting prospects who are generally the highest ranked prospects in baseball for the crap thats on his 40 right now ? At the stage the Sox and the farm system are at right now you're incrementally building .

Cease and Robert are the only 2 guys who can give you the high upside prospects. Apparently teams are hugging those guys for some odd reason . Oh yeah I forgot, those guys are prize possessions.

You need to be a lot more patient. Rome was not built in a day. There's not a whole lot we can glean from these early deals that points to a longer term strategy except for wanting better defense. Right now he's doing what he thinks is best to make his pitching staff more valuable and tradable while giving prospects more minor league development time. He's also working under some strict financially constraints which severely limits his moves. Cheap gloves who can't hit and Bannister magic to fix short term pitching assets and trade them is pretty much the only short term plan they could come up with given financial constraints.

You'll get a power hitting prospect when Cease is traded unless he gets hurt or can't at least find a strong middle ground between his 2022 and 2023 seasons.

You’re missing the point here.  I am preaching patience.  I’d rather see what we have in the barely 21 year old Mena because at the major league level I don’t see a quick path to contention and don’t feel a low ceiling, 26 year old platoon OF changes that trajectory.  I was fine with a Pillar / Phillips combo for two months in a lost season before handing over the role to Colas for one final test run.  If that didn’t work out, you hope that Cease and/or Robert trades help net a high ceiling OF prospect.  The point is where things stand now, we didn’t need to solve RF immediately and we definitely didn’t another low power corner OF with Benintendi stuck in the fold.  I’m sure that Fletcher will be a useful player, but I don’t see how this fits into some broader strategy when you also factor in the prospect cost.  To me, this feels more like trying to build Rome in a day than the opposite.  But again, I hope I’m wrong here and this little dude becomes the next Spanky and immediately solves RF.

[Chicago White Sox]

41 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sox also get a lot more homers from their CF than 90% of teams. You can’t just ignore that. 

I don’t envision Robert being on this team two years from now, which is part of the reason I don’t like this move from a broader roster design standpoint.

[Dick Allen]

Considering Getz and Barfields previous positions. If there ever was a mid level prospect trade the Sox should win, it would bee this one. If this blows up, there probably is no hope. And with the Santos trade. The only way that really bites the White  Sox is if Santos becomes a perennial dominant reliever, which I doubt.

[ChiSox59]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t envision Robert being on this team two years from now, which is part of the reason I don’t like this move from a broader roster design standpoint.

Well then Fletcher can slide to CF in that theoretical scenario and his lack of power is less concerning. We’re dealing with like a quarter deck of cards here as far as 25-26 and beyond are concerned. 

[mac9001]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Yeah, that .377 BABIP is consistent with his minor league career. Some guys just hit. I don't have to pretend that every single player will slash .000/.000/.000 to protect myself from getting disappointed. 

There was exactly zero qualified dudes late year with a BABIP of .377. Not happening over a larger sample size. 

[Jerksticks]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So what . The Sox are going to suck anyway. Do you expect Getz to be able to find power hitting prospects who are generally the highest ranked prospects in baseball for the crap thats on his 40 right now ? At the stage the Sox and the farm system are at right now you're incrementally building .

Cease and Robert are the only 2 guys who can give you the high upside prospects. Apparently teams are hugging those guys for some odd reason . Oh yeah I forgot, those guys are prize possessions.

You need to be a lot more patient. Rome was not built in a day. There's not a whole lot we can glean from these early deals that points to a longer term strategy except for wanting better defense. Right now he's doing what he thinks is best to make his pitching staff more valuable and tradable while giving prospects more minor league development time. He's also working under some strict financially constraints which severely limits his moves. Cheap gloves who can't hit and Bannister magic to fix short term pitching assets and trade them is pretty much the only short term plan they could come up with given financial constraints.

You'll get a power hitting prospect when Cease is traded unless he gets hurt or can't at least find a strong middle ground between his 2022 and 2023 seasons.

This precisely.   This is what’s happening.  

 

The only thing is it seems to directly contradict Jerry’s public desire when Getz was hired to turn this around really fast.  The only path right now to compete fast is massive breakouts from Eloy, Vaughn, Moncada & some pitchers.  I mean maybe.  It is Moncada’s contract year
 

 

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m sure that Fletcher will be a useful player, but I don’t see how this fits into some broader strategy when you also factor in the prospect cost.  To me, this feels more like trying to build Rome in a day than the opposite.

We have a surplus of starting pitching. We have a dearth of outfield talent. If you don't see how a "useful player" fits into some broader strategy, I'm not sure what you're even asking. You can't assume that a player who has been successful in a short run in the majors has too many question marks, but a guy who has had a sketchy track record in the minors, even while ascending quickly at a young age - doesn't. 

I get that you don't like the trade. I wish the D-backs just gave us Fletcher for cash considerations. That would have been cool. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You’re missing the point here.  I am preaching patience.  I’d rather see what we have in the barely 21 year old Mena because at the major league level I don’t see a quick path to contention and don’t feel a low ceiling, 26 year old platoon OF changes that trajectory.  I was fine with a Pillar / Phillips combo for two months in a lost season before handing over the role to Colas for one final test run.  If that didn’t work out, you hope that Cease and/or Robert trades help net a high ceiling OF prospect.  The point is where things stand now, we didn’t need to solve RF immediately and we definitely didn’t another low power corner OF with Benintendi stuck in the fold.  I’m sure that Fletcher will be a useful player, but I don’t see how this fits into some broader strategy when you also factor in the prospect cost.  To me, this feels more like trying to build Rome in a day than the opposite.  But again, I hope I’m wrong here and this little dude becomes the next Spanky and immediately solves RF.

It's a trade to solve RF now and OF depth , future 4th OF, backup CF and another LH bat with enough hitting, pop, defense and OBP potential because the Sox were woefully short on all those things. That's a lot of things the Sox needed immediately and for the next 6 years.

I don't know if you are overestimating Mena or underestimating just how little talent and money Getz has to work with now.

[Chicago White Sox]

28 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Getz doesn't value power so much that he will try to bury a garbage glove in LF or RF in order to get power. Yes, I agree with you on that. So what you're looking for is at least a 4-tool OF, and those are either going for $10+ million, or even Dylan Cease can't pluck somebody's at least 4-tool OF out of their minors. 

We'll either try to catch lighting in a bottle with Rafael Ortega, or someone like that, or get a project like DeLoach where, if we can fix his swing, you have a nice hitter who won't embarrass himself in the field. 

I think Lenyn Sosa can play his way into the lineup, and he can run into a dozen, or so. At some point, Yoan Moncada, Eloy Jimenez and Andrew Vaughn are going to have to pull on their big boy pants and live up to their billing. 

But to be clear here, I’m not viewing this through a 2024 lens.  I’m questioning the long-term logic of it.  I’d be perfectly fine giving Piller & Phillips the role for a couple of months until Colas warrants a shot because next year doesn’t really matter.  Yes, Fletcher is a lot more fun and exciting than those guys, but is that near-term upgrade worth giving up a top five pitching prospect and one who is already in AAA, who is young & athletic, and has already put up 135 innings in a season?

We have zero long-term starters in the rotation at the moment.  We will have to fill an entire rotation from scratch and with an owner who is completely against making big commitments to pitchers in free agency.  I’m sure the front office is skeptical of Mena’s ceiling and feels it is selling high on him with this trade, but I think I’d rather take the gamble on him finding another tick with the fastball and give myself another potential rotation option in the near-term than solve RF with what I deem to be a low impact solution.  In other words, if this was “selling high”, I don’t like it and struggle to see how it fits into the long term puzzle.

[RudyLawRules]

https://twitter.com/HogsPlayerDev/status/1636359277244821504?t=upXuSXg9IqglP-XVBpfxAw&s=19

 

Edited February 4 by RudyLawRules

[SkokieSox]

26 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t envision Robert being on this team two years from now, which is part of the reason I don’t like this move from a broader roster design standpoint.

In that scenario, it makes sense due to Fletcher’s ability to play CF.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

This precisely.   This is what’s happening.  

 

The only thing is it seems to directly contradict Jerry’s public desire when Getz was hired to turn this around really fast.  The only path right now to compete fast is massive breakouts from Eloy, Vaughn, Moncada & some pitchers.  I mean maybe.  It is Moncada’s contract year
 

 

It doesn't necessarily contradict JR when JR is full s%*# or  perhaps by quickly he meant show a decent amount of progress in 2-3 years. Jerry's  budget for this year is obviously low.

Maybe next year without the Moncada , Cease and Eloy contracts we see a little more money and mid level deals. We won't get a read on Getz until then . But he's always going to be restricted by JR.

[SoCalChiSox]

Does Getz understand that slap hitting Limp Dick bats are not what corner OFers are supposed to be? 

Asking for a friend.

At least he's left handed and did damage against RHP in a limited sample size last year, although he's FAR from a savage.

Or maybe the plan is for him to hold down the strongside of the platoon in RF this year and then move him to CF after Robert is traded since he's a glove first player?

Does anyone know the scouting report on him as a CF?

I still want Lazaro Montes in a SEA trade to serve the savage role, because somewhere at some point, someone in the lineup (esp post Robert) has to strike fear into the pitcher. 

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

9 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Vera, Mena, they will both be just another failed international signing of a starting pitcher.  
Would you like to provide a list of internationally acquired starting pitchers that HAVE panned out for the Sox? 

Cristian Mena is going to pitch in the majors as a 21-year-old after signing for $250K. It’s an extremely successful international signing. 

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It terrifies me because Getz doesn’t appear to value power all that much and we are probably going to get the least amount of HRs in the corner OF spots of any team in baseball.  And if all goes well, this is our OF alignment for the next four years.  Where is all the power coming from?  So yes, I find the early signs of roster construction to be highly concerning.

Getz understands that they need power. It’s just expensive to acquire. This plan really isn’t tough to figure out. And also, DeLoach has quite a bit of power. 

20 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

But to be clear here, I’m not viewing this through a 2024 lens.  I’m questioning the long-term logic of it.  I’d be perfectly fine giving Piller & Phillips the role for a couple of months until Colas warrants a shot because next year doesn’t really matter.  Yes, Fletcher is a lot more fun and exciting than those guys, but is that near-term upgrade worth giving up a top five pitching prospect and one who is already in AAA, who is young & athletic, and has already put up 135 innings in a season?

We have zero long-term starters in the rotation at the moment.  We will have to fill an entire rotation from scratch and with an owner who is completely against making big commitments to pitchers in free agency.  I’m sure the front office is skeptical of Mena’s ceiling and feels it is selling high on him with this trade, but I think I’d rather take the gamble on him finding another tick with the fastball and give myself another potential rotation option in the near-term than solve RF with what I deem to be a low impact solution.  In other words, if this was “selling high”, I don’t like it and struggle to see how it fits into the long term puzzle.

This is extremely dramatic. I’m sure they value Nastrini, Eder, Cannon etc higher than Mena. He projects as a #4 starter. It’s going to be okay. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

3 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Does Getz understand that slap hitting Limp Dick bats are not what corner OFers are supposed to be? 

Asking for a friend.

At least he's left handed and did damage against RHP in a limited sample size last year, although he's FAR from a savage.

Or maybe the plan is for him to hold down the strongside of the platoon in RF this year and then move him to CF after Robert is traded since he's a glove first player?

Does anyone know the scouting report on him as a CF?

I still want Lazaro Montes in a SEA trade to serve the savage role, because somewhere at some point, someone in the lineup (esp post Robert) has to strike fear into the pitcher. 

 

Plus defender in all three spots and he smashes righties. Why do people think he’s just a sloppy guy? My god this is frustrating. It’s like political discourse is. Read, research, then comment. Everyone seems to reverse that order on too many topics. 

Edited February 4 by Y2Jimmy0

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, zisk said:

To all members blasting Mena. We will rue this day very soon. 26 year old prospects under 5'7" 

rarely move the needle. 20 year olds in AAA do.

Not quite that simple. This trade could work out well for both teams, either team or neither team. All we have right now are some good discussions from those who see it different ways.

[WestEddy]

40 minutes ago, mac9001 said:

There was exactly zero qualified dudes late year with a BABIP of .377. Not happening over a larger sample size. 

The original comment of mine you responded to was that Fletcher isn't a "replacement player". He's got a good glove, and has hit at every level of the minors. By picking a single lofty stat, and saying he'll never repeat it, you're not making my comment wrong. 

[Chicago White Sox]

20 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

We have a surplus of starting pitching. We have a dearth of outfield talent. If you don't see how a "useful player" fits into some broader strategy, I'm not sure what you're even asking. You can't assume that a player who has been successful in a short run in the majors has too many question marks, but a guy who has had a sketchy track record in the minors, even while ascending quickly at a young age - doesn't. 

I get that you don't like the trade. I wish the D-backs just gave us Fletcher for cash considerations. That would have been cool. 

Lol…we have a surplus of SP?  I’m going to need you to walk me through that because by my count we don’t have a single SP who is controllable beyond the 2025 season and we have two pitching prospects who are generally considered to be 50 FV or above.  I think there are quite a few 40 to 45 FV arms who could ascend upwards in the coming years, but I wouldn’t use the word “surplus” to describe of collection of pitching prospects.  And Mena is a part of that second tier and certainly has question marks…I have never once said otherwise.  I just think we need a mass of prospects with MOR ceilings or above to eventually fill out a rotation and he was part of that numbers game.

And feeling like a 100 plate appearance sample size has any real predictive value is humorous to me, especially when the batted ball data suggests he got super lucky.  Regardless, that’s besides the point.  I don’t like the move because I think the upside of Fletcher is limited and I don’t see how it moves the needle enough to actually accelerate things.  Never once did I say Fletcher was a bad player or should come free, so no idea why you’re making that jab.  Ultimately, I want to win a championship and not just win a crappy AL Central and trading a 21 year arm with some upside for a lower ceiling, 26 year old, platoon RF when the rest of puzzle won’t be ready for a few years screams the latter.

[WestEddy]

38 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

But to be clear here, I’m not viewing this through a 2024 lens.  I’m questioning the long-term logic of it.  I’d be perfectly fine giving Piller & Phillips the role for a couple of months until Colas warrants a shot because next year doesn’t really matter.  Yes, Fletcher is a lot more fun and exciting than those guys, but is that near-term upgrade worth giving up a top five pitching prospect and one who is already in AAA, who is young & athletic, and has already put up 135 innings in a season?

We have zero long-term starters in the rotation at the moment.  We will have to fill an entire rotation from scratch and with an owner who is completely against making big commitments to pitchers in free agency.  I’m sure the front office is skeptical of Mena’s ceiling and feels it is selling high on him with this trade, but I think I’d rather take the gamble on him finding another tick with the fastball and give myself another potential rotation option in the near-term than solve RF with what I deem to be a low impact solution.  In other words, if this was “selling high”, I don’t like it and struggle to see how it fits into the long term puzzle.

They picked up an OF who appears to be able to catch and hit the ball with 6 years of control. That's how he fits into the long term puzzle. I'm not sure what you're struggling with. If there are only 26 players on the planet who can play for the next White Sox championship team, please point them out. 

The White Sox seem to have assembled a surplus of starting pitching, both through a couple of pitching heavy drafts, and a series of trades. They dealt a guy whom they felt his arsenal might not play as well in the majors. They don't appear to have faith in Colas to break some bad habits. 

Again, I don't see what the struggle is.