Bob Sacamano Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 8 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: Problem is JR's attitude towards pitchers and contracts. Oh I know it’s not possible. Just saying I’d rather try that than signing to an extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 44 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: Problem is JR's attitude towards pitchers and contracts. Wishing you had that Rodon extension? Maybe Giolito? Or Sale? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 10 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: So random thought, but what if Soroka magically returns to form? Would he be a guy worth trying to extend or would we better off flipping him? He won’t be 27 until August, so age wise he’s a legit fit for us. Can’t even begin speculating what an extension might look like, but my guess is it wouldn’t be exorbitant. But if you send Crochet down to AAA for a few months and claw back that extra year of control like I proposed, there is a path to a pretty solid rotation of the future (and as soon as next year) if paired with a Soroka extension. Soroka Crochet* Nastrini Eder* Cannon That rotation would obviously be lacking at the very top even if Soroka were to return to form (unless Crochet were to take a massive leap forward), but it could theoretically be solid enough to be competitive in the AL Central and you’re hope would be that Schultz and whomever we take at the 1.05 (if we go with a pitcher) could eventually provide that type of TOR production. This is all hypothetical at the moment and most of the guys highlighted above have a ton of question marks, but it’s fun to dream on guys like Soroka and Crochet going from complete wild cards to rotation stalwarts. And if it were to happen, it would greatly increase our chances of being competitive by 2026. Absolutely flip him (unless the team is in first place because he’s a cy young candidate). Do you trust his body enough to give him an extension even covering next year? Let alone a multi year deal? If he’s spectacular in April and May we will be praying he stays healthy through mid July and begging Getz to get a deal done before his next start. Hed have to be one of the top Cy Young candidates before I’d even think about giving him a QO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 42 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Wishing you had that Rodon extension? Maybe Giolito? Or Sale? You can argue that JR's "policy" is right or wrong, but the reality is the other teams in MLB ARE willing to do it, they take the risk and a lot of times it does work out where said pitcher helps get them to the post season for a few years. What's the alternative then especially given JR's publicly stated "policy" against paying for "potential?" (As evidenced by how productive the Sox minor league system has been) If there is a third option between this rock and a hard place I'd like to hear it. You want to win? Then you have to take risks but remember this is the guy who said this: "Sports is a business of failure but the fact that you finish second or third or fourth it doesn’t mean you had a bad year." At this point in time I'd be thrilled if the Sox could even come close to finishing second with a decent record but that's not happening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 7 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: You can argue that JR's "policy" is right or wrong, but the reality is the other teams in MLB ARE willing to do it, they take the risk and a lot of times it does work out where said pitcher helps get them to the post season for a few years. What's the alternative then especially given JR's publicly stated "policy" against paying for "potential?" (As evidenced by how productive the Sox minor league system has been) If there is a third option between this rock and a hard place I'd like to hear it. You want to win? Then you have to take risks but remember this is the guy who said this: "Sports is a business of failure but the fact that you finish second or third or fourth it doesn’t mean you had a bad year." At this point in time I'd be thrilled if the Sox could even come close to finishing second with a decent record but that's not happening. Draft all pitchers nearly every year (see Guardians) and make sure you know how to develop them because $100+ free agent deals or even pitching extensions are anathema. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 2 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: You can argue that JR's "policy" is right or wrong, but the reality is the other teams in MLB ARE willing to do it, they take the risk and a lot of times it does work out where said pitcher helps get them to the post season for a few years. Helps to have the best pitchers in the game if you want to win a World Series. If you want to waive a 2nd/3rd place carrots at fans every year, and blame fans for your shoddy product and stadium you wanted, not so much. 2023 Texas Rangers (Max Scherzer) 2022 Houston Astros (Justin Verlander) 2020 Los Angeles Dodgers (Clayton Kershaw) 2019 Washington Nationals (Max Scherzer, Stephen Strasburg) 2018 Boston Red Sox (Chris Sale) 2017 Houston Astros (Justin Verlander) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 minute ago, South Side Hit Men said: Helps to have the best pitchers in the game if you want to win a World Series. If you want to waive a 2nd/3rd place carrots at fans every year, and blame fans for your shoddy product and stadium you wanted, not so much. 2023 Texas Rangers (Max Scherzer) 2022 Houston Astros (Justin Verlander) 2020 Los Angeles Dodgers (Clayton Kershaw) 2019 Washington Nationals (Max Scherzer, Stephen Strasburg) 2018 Boston Red Sox (Chris Sale) 2017 Houston Astros (Justin Verlander) Winning the World Series is a crap shoot regardless of how good a roster you have (just look at the Dodgers) the key is just getting to the post season. You can't win it if you never even get to the post season. Did the teams you listed get to the post season? if they did, in my opinion, the money was well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 15 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: Helps to have the best pitchers in the game if you want to win a World Series. If you want to waive a 2nd/3rd place carrots at fans every year, and blame fans for your shoddy product and stadium you wanted, not so much. 2023 Texas Rangers (Max Scherzer) 2022 Houston Astros (Justin Verlander) 2020 Los Angeles Dodgers (Clayton Kershaw) 2019 Washington Nationals (Max Scherzer, Stephen Strasburg) 2018 Boston Red Sox (Chris Sale) 2017 Houston Astros (Justin Verlander) Literally one of those was obtained as a free agent from other teams. (One, Kershaw, was resigned). This makes a very strong case that paying high prices for free agent pitching isn’t a good move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 But who would the White Sox have even given an extension to, besides Cease? Giolito wasn't worth it after his combined last two seasons and not sure when you would have given it to Kopech where it actually would have been halfway justified. After a relatively successful but not entirely injury-free year out of the bullpen? Before his debut with the Sox? That would have simply provided more justification not to EVER do it, ultimately...along with the Moncada and Jimenez contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Literally one of those was obtained as a free agent from other teams. (One, Kershaw, was resigned). This makes a very strong case that paying high prices for free agent pitching isn’t a good move. Verlander signed an extension with the Astros after 2019 and again after 2021, went to two World Series after his extensions with the Astros winning one. Kershaw is a lifelong Dodger, reached three World Series and won one under his $215M 2014-2020 contract. Stephen Strasburg is a lifelong National. Max Scherzer signed his free agent deal with the Nationals before winning in 2019. Four pitchers, signed by teams that wanted to win, and then won with those teams committed to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 13 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: Verlander signed an extension with the Astros after 2019 and again after 2021, went to two World Series after his extensions with the Astros winning one. Kershaw is a lifelong Dodger, reached three World Series and won one under his $215M 2014-2020 contract. Stephen Strasburg is a lifelong National. Max Scherzer signed his free agent deal with the Nationals before winning in 2019. Four pitchers, signed by teams that wanted to win, and then won with those teams committed to win. Strasburg was not signed by the Nationals, he was drafted by the Nationals. Verlander was traded for by the Astros. I guess you are correct there are two guys on that list who were extended by their current franchises, but Verlander was most definitely acquired by trade from the Tigers and Strasburg was absolutely drafted by the Nationals. The only big money free agent pitcher who has recently won a title seems to be Scherzer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 WSox needed a power hitting RF 38 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: You can argue that JR's "policy" is right or wrong, but the reality is the other teams in MLB ARE willing to do it, they take the risk and a lot of times it does work out where said pitcher helps get them to the post season for a few years. What's the alternative then especially given JR's publicly stated "policy" against paying for "potential?" (As evidenced by how productive the Sox minor league system has been) If there is a third option between this rock and a hard place I'd like to hear it. I argued that the WSox should have outbid the Cubs by whatever was reasonably necessary to get Cody Bellinger. OK, I know that would have been a costly FA signing outside of the WSox typical framework, but it had the potential for being a real game changer. Now the Cubs feel invigorated by signing Bellinger and the WSox are left with the perennial hole in RF. Just great..Then there was Hahn and KW letting Burger go. You cannot continue to make foolish trades and fail to sign key FA when they are available. And you cannot make questionable Draft picks that end up as average or below major league talent. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Strasburg was not signed by the Nationals, he was drafted by the Nationals. Verlander was traded for by the Astros. I guess you are correct there are two guys on that list who were extended by their current franchises, but Verlander was most definitely acquired by trade from the Tigers and Strasburg was absolutely drafted by the Nationals. The only big money free agent pitcher who has recently won a title seems to be Scherzer. Strasberg won the World Series on his $175M Free Agent contract, signed in May 2016 after his final January 2016 Arbitration 3 hearing. He would have been a free agent after that season, but signed a clean new contract which did not include any arbitration seasons like a lot of these hi-bred part arb years part FA recent deals. I’m in agreement that a substantial number of long term pitching deals don’t work out. That said, teams committed to high priced pitching, be it FA or Trade or Extension are committed to winning, something missing from the equation here. This also applies for much smaller White Sox contracts in terms of highest MLB deals at the time when it came to Frank Thomas and Mark Buehrle having solid to great seasons after leaving the White Sox under relatively cheap deals. Both players could have and should have finished their careers as lifelong Chicago White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 12 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: Strasberg won the World Series on his $175M Free Agent contract, signed in May 2016 after his final January 2016 Arbitration 3 hearing. He would have been a free agent after that season, but signed a clean new contract which did not include any arbitration seasons like a lot of these hi-bred part arb years part FA recent deals. I’m in agreement that a substantial number of long term pitching deals don’t work out. That said, teams committed to high priced pitching, be it FA or Trade or Extension are committed to winning, something missing from the equation here. This also applies for much smaller White Sox contracts in terms of highest MLB deals at the time when it came to Frank Thomas and Mark Buehrle having solid to great seasons after leaving the White Sox under relatively cheap deals. Both players could have and should have finished their careers as lifelong Chicago White Sox. As far as I can tell, the last 3 WS winners had zero active pitchers with 9 figure deals, the Rangers had 1 buried. The Dodgers had 1, the Nationals 2, the Red Sox look to have had 1 in David Price, the 2017 Astros 0, the 2016 Cubs 1, the Royals and Giants 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said: You can argue that JR's "policy" is right or wrong, but the reality is the other teams in MLB ARE willing to do it, they take the risk and a lot of times it does work out where said pitcher helps get them to the post season for a few years. What's the alternative then especially given JR's publicly stated "policy" against paying for "potential?" (As evidenced by how productive the Sox minor league system has been) If there is a third option between this rock and a hard place I'd like to hear it. You want to win? Then you have to take risks but remember this is the guy who said this: "Sports is a business of failure but the fact that you finish second or third or fourth it doesn’t mean you had a bad year." At this point in time I'd be thrilled if the Sox could even come close to finishing second with a decent record but that's not happening. You could work as a politician with a dodge like this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: You could work as a politician with a dodge like this. To answer your original question, no, having those dead contracts would not bother me because to win you have to take risks. That doesn't mean I would gamble on all of them but you have to stick your neck out at least some times, remember nothing ventured, nothing gained. That should satisfy you, I think. Now back to my question... if JR won't take risks on top free agent pitchers but also won't spend money on developing them via his farm system what is the answer? Edited March 11 by Lip Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 26 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: To answer your original question, no having those dead contracts would not bother me because to win you have to take risks. That should satisfy you, I think. Now feel free to answer my question... if JR won't take risks on top free agent pitchers but also won't spend money on developing them via his farm system what is the answer? 75 years of virtual pitchforks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: Strasberg won the World Series on his $175M Free Agent contract, signed in May 2016 after his final January 2016 Arbitration 3 hearing. He would have been a free agent after that season, but signed a clean new contract which did not include any arbitration seasons like a lot of these hi-bred part arb years part FA recent deals. I’m in agreement that a substantial number of long term pitching deals don’t work out. That said, teams committed to high priced pitching, be it FA or Trade or Extension are committed to winning, something missing from the equation here. This also applies for much smaller White Sox contracts in terms of highest MLB deals at the time when it came to Frank Thomas and Mark Buehrle having solid to great seasons after leaving the White Sox under relatively cheap deals. Both players could have and should have finished their careers as lifelong Chicago White Sox. Buehrle deal would definitely not been cheap in JR's description of it...he basically told him, or advised him, to go with the Marlins where they would guarantee him more money/years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 12 hours ago, tray said: WSox needed a power hitting RF I argued that the WSox should have outbid the Cubs by whatever was reasonably necessary to get Cody Bellinger. OK, I know that would have been a costly FA signing outside of the WSox typical framework, but it had the potential for being a real game changer. Now the Cubs feel invigorated by signing Bellinger and the WSox are left with the perennial hole in RF. Just great..Then there was Hahn and KW letting Burger go. You cannot continue to make foolish trades and fail to sign key FA when they are available. And you cannot make questionable Draft picks that end up as average or below major league talent. Who says that you can't continue to do these things? It's been the White Sox way for a long long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, LittleHurtCG said: Who says that you can't continue to do these things? It's been the White Sox way for a long long time. Yup, when do fans just realize and accept that JR isn’t actually trying to compete? The owner who thinks 2nd place finishes are great — the dangling carrot in front of the horse (a.k.a. Sox fans). Edited March 11 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 14 hours ago, tray said: WSox needed a power hitting RF I argued that the WSox should have outbid the Cubs by whatever was reasonably necessary to get Cody Bellinger. OK, I know that would have been a costly FA signing outside of the WSox typical framework, but it had the potential for being a real game changer. Now the Cubs feel invigorated by signing Bellinger and the WSox are left with the perennial hole in RF. Just great..Then there was Hahn and KW letting Burger go. You cannot continue to make foolish trades and fail to sign key FA when they are available. And you cannot make questionable Draft picks that end up as average or below major league talent. The Cubs are going to be in playoff contention. The Sox are going to bad a bad team. Bellinger switching the side of town he plays for was never going to change these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 5 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Bellinger switching the side of town he plays for was never going to change these things. I love the dichotomy of "Free Agents will never sign here" and "JR could have signed [player X], but didn't". What makes anybody think that Cody Bellinger would have signed with the White Sox? AJ Pollock left $6m on the table to NOT play here. The Sox would have to pay a premium to attract a player like Bellinger that would make it an insane overpay. Like, Kris Bryant insane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 2 minutes ago, WestEddy said: I love the dichotomy of "Free Agents will never sign here" and "JR could have signed [player X], but didn't". What makes anybody think that Cody Bellinger would have signed with the White Sox? AJ Pollock left $6m on the table to NOT play here. The Sox would have to pay a premium to attract a player like Bellinger that would make it an insane overpay. Like, Kris Bryant insane. And as JR has stated numerous times this dichotomy is not his fault at all. The White Sox are in the position they are in because they have shitty fans, not incompetent management and ownership. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 35 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Yup, when do fans just realize and accept that JR isn’t actually trying to compete? The owner who thinks 2nd place finishes are great — the dangling carrot in front of the horse (a.k.a. Sox fans). And yet here you are mad about it, every single day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 17 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said: And as JR has stated numerous times this dichotomy is not his fault at all. The White Sox are in the position they are in because they have shitty fans, not incompetent management and ownership. Has he said that? Stepping back and looking at the management situation since about 2012, you had KW and Hahn pulling in different directions. Players have complained about the toxic atmosphere going back to the late 90's, what with clubhouse spies and all. We all know this emanates from JR. It's pointlessly circular to keep coming back to JR joking with another owner about finishing in 2nd place, or KW chiding the fans for not showing up. The White Sox wormed their way down to an untenable situation. Players didn't want to play here. I'd surmise that Benintendi was probably worth a 3-year deal, and it took a 5-year commitment to sign a mediocre player coming off of injury. We had one other team to beat out for Erick Fedde, and had to add a 2nd year to beat out the Mets. To get a player like Cody Bellinger to hold his nose and come to the South Side, you're probably talking a massive overpay on a short deal. Do you think this team was one 4-win player away from competing? How many season tickets do you think a Bellinger signing sells? Does Bellinger change the clubhouse atmosphere? Does that signing suddenly make you like JR? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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