Garrett Crochet named Opening Day starter

[Chicago White Sox]

5 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

Why do we care about protecting the bullpen? Honest question, as I might be missing something.

The way I look at it is that either...

• Our team is so bad that it won't matter if our bullpen is taxed. It's a lost season anyway, so why worry about the bullpen?

Or...

• We do care about the bullpen, because there's always an outside chance we could compete in our division. And if that's the case, then I'd want Crochet making his starts in the big leagues to start the year.

Having the bullpen pitch five or six innings once every five days week after week on top of covering any other shortfalls from the remaining four guys could prove to be very taxing.  And I simply don’t believe Pedro will manage this very effectively, which could result in underperformance and/or these guys getting hurt.

[caulfield12]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Why exactly should I have any confidence at all in Ethan Katz when basically I haven't seen anything positive in terms of big league pitching performance since the sticky stuff ban started?

Clevinger was better than he was in SD.  Santos Scholtens Cueto Martin all outperformed expectations.  Cease's 2022. Rodon's 2021... or was that a different pitching coach?

Let's see how all those guys they traded away do in their new settings first.  

I would venture a guess Joe Kelly is the only one with significantly better numbers.

Edited March 19 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

19 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Clevinger was better than he was in SD.  Santos Scholtens Cueto Martin all outperformed expectations.  Cease's 2022. Rodon's 2021... or was that a different pitching coach?

Let's see how all those guys they traded away do in their new settings first.  

I would venture a guess Joe Kelly is the only one with significantly better numbers.

Yes, Carlos Rodon's 2021 is truly a relevant example. A hard throwing left hander who had gone through multiple surgeries, was coming off TJS, and where they pitched him in the first half like there were literally zero restrictions on his arm only to have his body wear out in the 2nd half. 

That should totally raise your confidence in how they will handle Crochet. 

[Timmy U]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, Carlos Rodon's 2021 is truly a relevant example. A hard throwing left hander who had gone through multiple surgeries, was coming off TJS, and where they pitched him in the first half like there were literally zero restrictions on his arm only to have his body wear out in the 2nd half. 

That should totally raise your confidence in how they will handle Crochet. 

Good point. I think Garrett is going to miss his playoff start.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, Carlos Rodon's 2021 is truly a relevant example. A hard throwing left hander who had gone through multiple surgeries, was coming off TJS, and where they pitched him in the first half like there were literally zero restrictions on his arm only to have his body wear out in the 2nd half. 

That should totally raise your confidence in how they will handle Crochet. 

Otoh what happened to Giolito after departing the White Sox...?  He got paid, then completely collapsed.

You could argue Rodon was subsequently built up enough with SF to get a generational wealth contract (after 2022) with a 6ish fWAR...as the Sox realistically had zero interest in resigning him from the get go in 2021 and were even afraid of the QO being accepted.

 

I'm more willing to blame Rodon on TLR and Katz not feeling tenured enough to challenge him, like Cooper and Schneider would have done with Ozzie.

Michael Kopech remains the biggest enigma of the rebuild...but how much of that is on him personally, versus the coaching staff?

[Sambuca]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, Carlos Rodon's 2021 is truly a relevant example. A hard throwing left hander who had gone through multiple surgeries, was coming off TJS, and where they pitched him in the first half like there were literally zero restrictions on his arm only to have his body wear out in the 2nd half. 

That should totally raise your confidence in how they will handle Crochet. 

I’m not sure that comparison really makes sense.

It also doesn’t take away from Caulfield’s point that Katz can take credit for essentially reinventing Rodon, turning his career around, and making him not only a successful MLB SP for the first time in his career, but an elite one at that.

But I am honestly also not sure how good Katz is of a pitching coach ? 

I had high hopes for him after with some early success in his tenure, but then outside of Cease in ‘22 and Santos in ‘23, it’s kind of been a disaster the last two years.

[Balta1701]

11 minutes ago, Sambuca said:

I’m not sure that comparison really makes sense.

It also doesn’t take away from Caulfield’s point that Katz can take credit for essentially reinventing Rodon, turning his career around, and making him not only a successful MLB SP for the first time in his career, but an elite one at that.

But I am honestly also not sure how good Katz is of a pitching coach ? 

I had high hopes for him after with some early success in his tenure, but then outside of Cease in ‘22 and Santos in ‘23, it’s kind of been a disaster the last two years.

Yes, Katz was important in helping Rodon turn his career around.

But the specific subject was whether we had confidence in them using Crochet responsibly, and how Katz would totally use a guy responsibly. Except, with the biggest reclamation project in Katz's career, Rodon, the pitcher was used totally irresponsibly! He threw a 9 inning, 114 pitch no hitter in the 2nd game of the season, and then he was back on the mound 6 days later, no extra rest! They had him throw 90+ pitches per start in literally every outing he had until after the All Star Break. He threw 430 pitches in 4 starts in June. Somehow, this pitcher broke down, how could that have happened when they took such care of his arm? That seems pretty darn relevant.

Other stuff that seems relevant from those breakout pitchers. Davis Martin - had a pretty decent 2022. Blew out his elbow.
Gregory Santos - Had a good 2023. Has had multiple injury issues since September. 

As of right now, I don't see any reason why "Ethan Katz totally knows what he's doing why are you criticizing Pedro" is anything I should believe. 

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, Katz was important in helping Rodon turn his career around.

But the specific subject was whether we had confidence in them using Crochet responsibly, and how Katz would totally use a guy responsibly. Except, with the biggest reclamation project in Katz's career, Rodon, the pitcher was used totally irresponsibly! He threw a 9 inning, 114 pitch no hitter in the 2nd game of the season, and then he was back on the mound 6 days later, no extra rest! They had him throw 90+ pitches per start in literally every outing he had until after the All Star Break. He threw 430 pitches in 4 starts in June. Somehow, this pitcher broke down, how could that have happened when they took such care of his arm? That seems pretty darn relevant.

Other stuff that seems relevant from those breakout pitchers. Davis Martin - had a pretty decent 2022. Blew out his elbow.
Gregory Santos - Had a good 2023. Has had multiple injury issues since September. 

As of right now, I don't see any reason why "Ethan Katz totally knows what he's doing why are you criticizing Pedro" is anything I should believe. 

Turn your point around, though...realistically, which pitchers other than Michael Kopech were you expecting dramatically better results out of?

Other than Kopech, you're left trying to blame Katz for disappointing performances out of expensive veteran relievers and/or blaming him for Liam's injury/mistreatment...and 100% his early return was a combination of Sox PR/Boyer and Liam himself being so willing to push himself to the limits.

Lynn was/is pretty obviously cooked.  Keuchel was, as well.  It's not exactly like he had Wheeler and Nola to work with here.  Spider tack and sheer aging/physical health deterioration there.

 

 

If you had a SoxTalk poll of who is to blame for Michael Kopech's career...I would venture to guess that only 10-15% of that (at most) would fall back on Katz.

So we're left with a very incomplete record.

And even "disappointments" like Reynaldo Lopez got paid "generational family wealth" upon leaving the Sox.  Dane Dunning has settled into a 5th starter/swingman role, but it's not like the Rangers trusted him in the heart of their postseason rotation either, fwiw.

 

That leaves who exactly, Aaron Bummer?

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Turn your point around, though...realistically, which pitchers other than Michael Kopech were you expecting dramatically better results out of?

Other than Kopech, you're left trying to blame Katz for disappointing performances out of expensive veteran relievers and/or blaming him for Liam's injury/mistreatment...and 100% his early return was a combination of Sox PR/Boyer and Liam himself being so willing to push himself to the limits.

Lynn was/is pretty obviously cooked.  Keuchel was, as well.  It's not exactly like he had Wheeler and Nola to work with here.  Spider tack and sheer aging/physical health deterioration there.

 

 

If you had a SoxTalk poll of who is to blame for Michael Kopech's career...I would venture to guess that only 10-15% of that (at most) would fall back on Katz.

So we're left with a very incomplete record.

And even "disappointments" like Reynaldo Lopez got paid "generational family wealth" upon leaving the Sox.  Dane Dunning has settled into a 5th starter/swingman role, but it's not like the Rangers trusted him in the heart of their postseason rotation either, fwiw.

 

That leaves who exactly, Aaron Bummer?

You’ve pretty much backed off to saying “sure there’s no reason to have any confidence in Ethan Katz but Hahn did a terrible job too”, and you’re right. But that is the point, there’s no reason to have any confidence in Ethan Katz! The best you have is “the mess wasn’t all his fault”, but that leaves no reason to think he is going to be a powerful voice for wisdom and responsibility with this pitcher all of a sudden.

“It’s not the majors fault that the stadium collapsed!”

[caulfield12]

26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

You’ve pretty much backed off to saying “sure there’s no reason to have any confidence in Ethan Katz but Hahn did a terrible job too”, and you’re right. But that is the point, there’s no reason to have any confidence in Ethan Katz! The best you have is “the mess wasn’t all his fault”, but that leaves no reason to think he is going to be a powerful voice for wisdom and responsibility with this pitcher all of a sudden.

“It’s not the majors fault that the stadium collapsed!”

Other than the names mentioned...it feels like keeping Giolito together with baling wire and duct tape until he could really get paid (well, almost $40 million) is one of his most significant accomplishments.

Because his Red Sox 2024-25 contract numbers certainly weren't based on his brief time with CLE and LAA.

 

When all things are considered, one would say Katz pretty much deserves a "neutral" rating and that the next 2-3 seasons will be his truest test of all.

Even then, other than Schultz, he's lacking a slew of "top" pitching prospects, so approximating the Guardians/Brewers/Braves in terms of major league development would be a massive crowning achievement.

 

This "exercise" is not unlike trying to assign Marco Paddy a grade without taking into consideration JR's pocketbook controls, the supposed underage ban in the org and what actual resources were made available to him...you'd have a difficult time isolating exactly how much he's even responsible for the last 5 years or so of limited upside Cubans after the "Connection" had already worn out.

Alexei Ramirez, Abreu, Robert, Jr., and Tatis, Jr., pretty much amounts to a lifetime contract/tenure.

Plus, he's never been directly tasked with "fixing" the Dominican, and that's probably one of many reasons the Sox are still struggling there 15 years after Wilder.

 

Yes, two wildly different debates, certainly...but the tentacle-like influence of JR, TLR, Hahn and KW touches nearly everyone, doesn't it?  And it can't easily be separated in any easily quantifiable way.

Edited March 20 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Other than the names mentioned...it feels like keeping Giolito together with baling wire and duct tape until he could really get paid (well, almost $40 million) is one of his most significant accomplishments.

Because his Red Sox 2024-25 contract numbers certainly weren't based on his brief time with CLE and LAA.

 

When all things are considered, one would say Katz pretty much deserves a "neutral" rating and that the next 2-3 seasons will be his truest test of all.

Even then, other than Schultz, he's lacking a slew of "top" pitching prospects, so approximating the Guardians/Brewers/Braves in terms of major league development would be a massive crowning achievement.

Giolito who, without sticky stuff, put up a 4.90 ERA in 2022 Is something we brag about. I mean, that isn’t the pitching coaches fault, we give him credit when bad things happen that aren’t totally his fault/

And while we are at it, how about the super responsible time we raced him back from COVID and another injury in April of 2022? 

Our best defense of Katz continues to be “oh there’s too much blame to place it on any one person.”

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Giolito who, without sticky stuff, put up a 4.90 ERA in 2022 Is something we brag about. I mean, that isn’t the pitching coaches fault, we give him credit when bad things happen that aren’t totally his fault/

And while we are at it, how about the super responsible time we raced him back from COVID and another injury in April of 2022? 

Our best defense of Katz continues to be “oh there’s too much blame to place it on any one person.”

After Kopech, who we can all agree was a "failure by committee, mostly himself" situation, what 2-3 pitchers would we even "blame" on Katz, though?

Bummer...let's see how ATL does with him?

Kelly...he's one of those guys like David Wells who will always pitch better when "inspired" for the Yankees (Dodgers/Cardinals), etc.

Lynn...see Joe Kelly

Keuchel...his results since 2020 would argue otherwise, Hahn was simply wrong to throw money at him when Dallas was the last guy standing in his tier at in that particular FA group

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

After Kopech, who we can all agree was a "failure by committee, mostly himself" situation, what 2-3 pitchers would we even "blame" on Katz, though?

Bummer...let's see how ATL does with him?

Kelly...he's one of those guys like David Wells who will always pitch better when "inspired" for the Yankees (Dodgers/Cardinals), etc.

Lynn...see Joe Kelly

Keuchel...his results since 2020 would argue otherwise, Hahn was simply wrong to throw money at him when Dallas was the last guy standing in his tier at in that particular FA group

Sing it with me folks, “It’s not Ethan Katz’s fault that the pitching staff collapsed…” 

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Sing it with me folks, “It’s not Ethan Katz’s fault that the pitching staff collapsed…” 

It's the same tune that can't help but mention having a 25th-30th ranked farm system for most of the last few years until recovering in the most recent calendar year.

Let's put it this way.

Ozzie always said you win with talent as a manager, first and foremost.

And Don Cooper is undoubtedly the "best" pitching coach of most Sox fans' lifetimes.

He had the greatest collection of young arms in baseball from 1998-2001 coming up through that system.

 

Other than Buehrle (on the periphery of the Top 10 prospects lists back then) and Garland (for Karchner), he won a WS with Contreras, F.Garcia and the likes of Jenks/Politte/Cotts, etc.

Was Cooper a failure with youngsters like #1 prospect Rauch, Kip Wells and then all those guys who got hurt...or were they all pretty much overrated...or was he a near-genius due to the Sox results from 2004-2012?

Once again, somewhere closer to the middle than genius.

 

Maybe it was Herm Schneider who was the real genius for keeping them all so healthy until Danks.

Or was it Cooper who's equally to credit for teaching the pitchers not to go for max velocity...?

 

 

Anyone watching the Sox from mid season 2021 through the end of 2023 would identify lack of talent as the #1 issue with this organization, especially on the pitching side as the veterans aged out or got injured and Cease (2022) and (previously) Giolito and Rodon (2021) had their runs at Cy Youngs.

[WestEddy]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Why exactly should I have any confidence at all in Ethan Katz when basically I haven't seen anything positive in terms of big league pitching performance since the sticky stuff ban started?

So, because you don't "trust" Ethan Katz, you get to spout off insane conspiracy theories? Okay, the moon is made of cheese because NASA has always lied, and they won't come clean about Roswell. I guess we're on that level of discussion, now. 

[WhiteSox2023]

2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

So, because you don't "trust" Ethan Katz, you get to spout off insane conspiracy theories? Okay, the moon is made of cheese because NASA has always lied, and they won't come clean about Roswell. I guess we're on that level of discussion, now. 

What did @Balta1701 say that you are referring to as “insane conspiracy theories”?

[Milkman delivers]

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

So, because you don't "trust" Ethan Katz, you get to spout off insane conspiracy theories? Okay, the moon is made of cheese because NASA has always lied, and they won't come clean about Roswell. I guess we're on that level of discussion, now. 

Uh, that’s the Air Force. NASA was too busy faking moon landings to be bothered with that.

[WestEddy]

24 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

What did @Balta1701 say that you are referring to as “insane conspiracy theories”?

Read the string. 

[greg775]

13 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Of course I'm suggesting it's good news. And it is. It's exciting. I don't think a Sox fan can get "overly" excited about it. Everybody here grouses incessantly about how Reinsdorf hates the fans, and the first fun development, everybody freaks out and wails. 

It seems like all the people who were hoping for Erick Fedde to get soundly beaten on opening day so they could cluck their tongues at everyone they judge to be "overly excited", are truly unhappy that they didn't think of this development to complain about, beforehand. 

It's fun to talk about screwing over baseball players like they're game pieces, but "clawing back" a year of control is problematic, from an MLBPA standpoint. I'm sure Jerry Reinsdorf's toweling himself off right now, thinking about holding every minor leaguer at AAA until he's ready with the perfect team. You should suggest that to him. Maybe he'll hire you as one of his flying monkeys. 

As far as protecting the bullpen, everybody says this is a lost season, anyway. Keep two long men in the bullpen. You already have multiple 2 inning guys. They're covered. 

It's funny when commenters think that only when crazy moves succeed will they "look stupid". 

I do respect fans who remain optimistic like yourself. Believe. me, it's taken a lot to beat me down to this pessimistic wimpering excuse for a Sox fan, just about ready to 'finally' punt it and start following the Royals and Cubs since they appear to 'maybe' have a clue. Cubs more than Royals. ... I wish I could be optimistic but when I see an up the middle combo of Maldo, DeJong, Lopez truly I give up. And to pitch a guy on Opening Day who won't go more than 3 innings makes me puke to be quite frank. I love our optimistic fans like yourself. For years on this board I've stood up for some players hated by others. I never gave up my love for Oz and even in my depressed state I am grateful for 2005. Hell it's tough to beat out all other baseball teams and we at least got one in Jerry's lifetime. .... Have pity on those of us who now despise the current Sox roster and current Sox manager and GM and owner. We don't want to be this negative, believe me.

[WestEddy]

10 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I do respect fans who remain optimistic like yourself. Believe. me, it's taken a lot to beat me down to this pessimistic wimpering excuse for a Sox fan, just about ready to 'finally' punt it and start following the Royals and Cubs since they appear to 'maybe' have a clue. Cubs more than Royals. ... I wish I could be optimistic but when I see an up the middle combo of Maldo, DeJong, Lopez truly I give up. And to pitch a guy on Opening Day who won't go more than 3 innings makes me puke to be quite frank. I love our optimistic fans like yourself. For years on this board I've stood up for some players hated by others. I never gave up my love for Oz and even in my depressed state I am grateful for 2005. Hell it's tough to beat out all other baseball teams and we at least got one in Jerry's lifetime. .... Have pity on those of us who now despise the current Sox roster and current Sox manager and GM and owner. We don't want to be this negative, believe me.

I dig. 

[Stinky Stanky]

Grifol would have preferred to start someone really good who could give you 6 and keep it a game.  I can't think of the guy's name.  Can anyone?  I mean the guy has to be on the team as of now.

Katz?  He's got a method and it doesn't fit everyone.  Different method, but same problem as Cooper. At least Katz is aware of the science of throwing a baseball more than Don was.

Edited March 20 by Stinky Stanky

[Balta1701]

10 hours ago, WestEddy said:

So, because you don't "trust" Ethan Katz, you get to spout off insane conspiracy theories? Okay, the moon is made of cheese because NASA has always lied, and they won't come clean about Roswell. I guess we're on that level of discussion, now. 

Please go look what happened to the spin rates of Dylan Cease, Lucas Giolito, and Lance Lynn before and after June 15 of 2021. Each of them had a huge spin rate drop starting the exact week of the sticky stuff ban, not matched any other time in their career. Hell I have some of the images in my old attachments on here.

 

Boy what a conspiracy theory that is to say that giant dropoff in his fastball spin rate that happened on the exact date the sticky stuff ban started was because of the sticky stuff ban. 

Rodon, Fwiw, was clean. Keuchel shows no big change in spin rate, but his career also fell apart basically after June of that year, so never was certain about him. The other guys were major sticky stuff users.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Please go look what happened to the spin rates of Dylan Cease, Lucas Giolito, and Lance Lynn before and after June 15 of 2021. Each of them had a huge spin rate drop starting the exact week of the sticky stuff ban, not matched any other time in their career. Hell I have some of the images in my old attachments on here.

 

Boy what a conspiracy theory that is to say that giant dropoff in his fastball spin rate that happened on the exact date the sticky stuff ban started was because of the sticky stuff ban. 

Rodon, Fwiw, was clean. Keuchel shows no big change in spin rate, but his career also fell apart basically after June of that year, so never was certain about him. The other guys were major sticky stuff users.

“It’s all Joe West’s fault.”

- Hawk Harrelson (1976-2021)

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Please go look what happened to the spin rates of Dylan Cease, Lucas Giolito, and Lance Lynn before and after June 15 of 2021. Each of them had a huge spin rate drop starting the exact week of the sticky stuff ban, not matched any other time in their career. Hell I have some of the images in my old attachments on here.

 

Boy what a conspiracy theory that is to say that giant dropoff in his fastball spin rate that happened on the exact date the sticky stuff ban started was because of the sticky stuff ban. 

Rodon, Fwiw, was clean. Keuchel shows no big change in spin rate, but his career also fell apart basically after June of that year, so never was certain about him. The other guys were major sticky stuff users.

 Cease did?

[Bob Sacamano]

This dude owes us a semi-team friendly deal (buying out arb years and at least one year of free agency) if this works out this year. Started his service time in the same year he was drafted and lost a year of control due to missing a whole season.