Know your Sox: The Bust Bros

[Lip Man 1]

2 minutes ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

I agree with this take, Moncada is a bust not because he isn't an MLB player or a bad one, but because he was supposed to be peak Jose Ramirez and only got over 4 WAR twice. Also injuries and covid sapped him of his athleticism. 

I agree with some of this but from what I've been told by multiple sources (and I printed their comments in November 2022) his attitude is poor. Let's put it this way, some of those "injuries" were the type that could have been played through but he chose not to do so. The guy was the #1 prospect in baseball, he still has a ton of talent but apparently doesn't care that much especially after getting that big contract. 

[baseball_gal_aly]

9 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I agree with some of this but from what I've been told by multiple sources (and I printed their comments in November 2022) his attitude is poor. Let's put it this way, some of those "injuries" were the type that could have been played through but he chose not to do so. The guy was the #1 prospect in baseball, he still has a ton of talent but apparently doesn't care that much especially after getting that big contract. 

He has made 9 figures in his career. He's already set for life. 

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I agree with some of this but from what I've been told by multiple sources (and I printed their comments in November 2022) his attitude is poor. Let's put it this way, some of those "injuries" were the type that could have been played through but he chose not to do so. The guy was the #1 prospect in baseball, he still has a ton of talent but apparently doesn't care that much especially after getting that big contract. 

I don’t believe one bit that the problem with guys on the 2021-2023 white Sox is that they aren’t tough enough to play through injuries. The much bigger problem is that the staff thinks they should be able to rub some dirt on an actual injury and play through it, and in the process they make things worse and worse while the players are also terrible.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don’t believe one bit that the problem with guys on the 2021-2023 white Sox is that they aren’t tough enough to play through injuries. The much bigger problem is that the staff thinks they should be able to rub some dirt on an actual injury and play through it, and in the process they make things worse and worse while the players are also terrible.

FR.  It was much worse that Yoan played last year at 80% instead of taking some time to get healthy. 

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

FR.  It was much worse that Yoan played last year at 80% instead of taking some time to get healthy. 

And in 2022 when both he and Grandal tried to play through back injuries that we found out about in December. There’s a long list of this, from Just the last couple years.

I totally believe the White Sox have a staff that would think “he’s not tough enough to play through a serious back injury” and tell that to people. That isn’t a comment on the player, it’s a comment on the staff.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

And in 2022 when both he and Grandal tried to play through back injuries that we found out about in December. There’s a long list of this, from Just the last couple years.

I totally believe the White Sox have a staff that would think “he’s not tough enough to play through a serious back injury” and tell that to people. That isn’t a comment on the player, it’s a comment on the staff.

Balta I've passed along what folks both inside and outside the organization have told me about the guy. Do with it what you will.

All these guys wear a ton of body armor, he fouls a ball off and can't play for three days?

Now I will say this, as incompetent and dysfunctional as the Sox medical, training and conditioning staffs have been for the past several years (just look at the number of people who have passed through those areas and the fact that Hahn had to conduct a deep examination of those areas, and never revealed the results) I totally agree that more serious injuries are being misdiagnosed. 

But I don't know of many guys who apparently are hurt as often as Moncada, and Jimenez. 

They got the big contracts because the Sox were trying to save money by buying out some arbitration years and it wound up biting them on the ass. These guys simply haven't shown a lot since they got them.

Coincidence? Maybe...maybe not.

The good news is that after this year they'll be some other teams problem. 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Balta I've passed along what folks both inside and outside the organization have told me about the guy. Do with it what you will.

All these guys wear a ton of body armor, he fouls a ball off and can't play for three days?

Now I will say this, as incompetent and dysfunctional as the Sox medical, training and conditioning staffs have been for the past several years (just look at the number of people who have passed through those areas and the fact that Hahn had to conduct a deep examination of those areas, and never revealed the results) I totally agree that more serious injuries are being misdiagnosed. 

But I don't know of many guys who apparently are hurt as often as Moncada, and Jimenez. 

They got the big contracts because the Sox were trying to save money by buying out some arbitration years and it wound up biting them on the ass. These guys simply haven't shown a lot since they got them.

Coincidence? Maybe...maybe not.

The good news is that after this year they'll be some other teams problem. 

I can't help but notice who gets fed to the pseudo press as fragile and who else is just as fragile but never gets talked about in those same tones and definitely see a pattern to it.  It's depressing. 

[chitownsportsfan]

23rd in wRC at 63, -2. fWAR from the position players so far. The pitching might actually be the "promising" part of this s%*# squad. Eloy should have been flipped last deadline but that's on Hahn. 

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

23rd in wRC at 63, -2. fWAR from the position players so far. The pitching might actually be the "promising" part of this s%*# squad. Eloy should have been flipped last deadline but that's on Hahn. 

No one was likely paying anything for him at the deadline last year either. You might have gotten someone to absorb the rest of his contract still, but I thought someone might take his contract on last offseason and no one wanted him at that point either. 

If you have to pay a large portion of his contract to move him, then there's no reason to do so.

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No one was likely paying anything for him at the deadline last year either. You might have gotten someone to absorb the rest of his contract still, but I thought someone might take his contract on last offseason and no one wanted him at that point either. 

If you have to pay a large portion of his contract to move him, then there's no reason to do so.

Def could have had the contract eaten. Anyways, that's gone now. 

[Balta1701]

19 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Balta I've passed along what folks both inside and outside the organization have told me about the guy. Do with it what you will.

All these guys wear a ton of body armor, he fouls a ball off and can't play for three days?

Now I will say this, as incompetent and dysfunctional as the Sox medical, training and conditioning staffs have been for the past several years (just look at the number of people who have passed through those areas and the fact that Hahn had to conduct a deep examination of those areas, and never revealed the results) I totally agree that more serious injuries are being misdiagnosed. 

But I don't know of many guys who apparently are hurt as often as Moncada, and Jimenez. 

They got the big contracts because the Sox were trying to save money by buying out some arbitration years and it wound up biting them on the ass. These guys simply haven't shown a lot since they got them.

Coincidence? Maybe...maybe not.

The good news is that after this year they'll be some other teams problem. 

Yes, Moncada is hurt a lot. As far as I can tell, he has been trying to play through a serious back problem. There's pretty much no amount of toughness and rubbing dirt on it that will help with serious back problems. Whether that is career threatening I am not sure, but it definitely seems within the realm of possibility. 

In terms of Eloy getting hurt, yeah there's something up here. I don't believe that it's him not being tough enough, if a guy pulls a muscle I don't want him trying to play through it if all he does is strike out. He definitely gets hurt too often and it has been a major impact to his career. Some guys are just like that, possibly Eloy is one, maybe he doesn't take enough care of his diet and exercise and stretching routines, I don't know. 

I do think there's something to the team's training regimen, the lack of coordinated offseason workouts, the lack of advanced work on mechanics and so forth, that we've heard about a lot, and the number of injuries some of these guys have had. But then again, sometimes guys' bodies just break down - hell, take a look at Soroka, no one seems to thin he did anything horribly wrong, but he had the same issues as Burger and it cost him what was shaping up to be a strong career. 

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, Moncada is hurt a lot. As far as I can tell, he has been trying to play through a serious back problem. There's pretty much no amount of toughness and rubbing dirt on it that will help with serious back problems. Whether that is career threatening I am not sure, but it definitely seems within the realm of possibility. 

In terms of Eloy getting hurt, yeah there's something up here. I don't believe that it's him not being tough enough, if a guy pulls a muscle I don't want him trying to play through it if all he does is strike out. He definitely gets hurt too often and it has been a major impact to his career. Some guys are just like that, possibly Eloy is one, maybe he doesn't take enough care of his diet and exercise and stretching routines, I don't know. 

I do think there's something to the team's training regimen, the lack of coordinated offseason workouts, the lack of advanced work on mechanics and so forth, that we've heard about a lot, and the number of injuries some of these guys have had. But then again, sometimes guys' bodies just break down - hell, take a look at Soroka, no one seems to thin he did anything horribly wrong, but he had the same issues as Burger and it cost him what was shaping up to be a strong career. 

Remember this past off season the Sox advertised for a biomechanics specialist for the first time and someone along the lines of a sleep co-ordinator.

Teams have had these for years already.

Like I was told when it comes to these areas "The Sox play checkers where other teams play chess..." 

Regarding Moncada it is not just his back, according to the Fox Sports site starting in 2018 he has had a total of seven different instances where hamstring or leg issues forced him to miss games and he also missed time with a knee. That site had him listed as missing games for various reasons a grand total of 19 times.  

Edited April 1 by Lip Man 1

[The Mighty Mite]

8 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

 

 

 

The good news is that after this year they'll be some other teams problem. 

That will be one of the happiest days when those 2 weak minded fragile losers are gone from the White Sox, If they DFA’d these bums today I’d sacrifice losing every game the rest of the season to see these guys out of here.

[Chimpton]

12 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, Moncada is hurt a lot. As far as I can tell, he has been trying to play through a serious back problem. There's pretty much no amount of toughness and rubbing dirt on it that will help with serious back problems. Whether that is career threatening I am not sure, but it definitely seems within the realm of possibility. 

It's not just that Moncada gets hurt alot or has back issues which may genuinely be hampering him in some situations, but he appears to have little to no baseball intelligence. The plate appearance the other day when he had 3 balls against a pitcher who had already walked 2 and then proceeded to take one down the middle and swing wildly at 2 off the plate balls was awful, it would be insulting to little leaguers to call it a little league play.

Equally, Eloy gets injured alot but similarly shows an amazing lack of baseball intelligence or ability to adjust his play to the situation on the field.

[Milkman delivers]

12 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes, Moncada is hurt a lot. As far as I can tell, he has been trying to play through a serious back problem. There's pretty much no amount of toughness and rubbing dirt on it that will help with serious back problems. Whether that is career threatening I am not sure, but it definitely seems within the realm of possibility. 

In terms of Eloy getting hurt, yeah there's something up here. I don't believe that it's him not being tough enough, if a guy pulls a muscle I don't want him trying to play through it if all he does is strike out. He definitely gets hurt too often and it has been a major impact to his career. Some guys are just like that, possibly Eloy is one, maybe he doesn't take enough care of his diet and exercise and stretching routines, I don't know. 

I do think there's something to the team's training regimen, the lack of coordinated offseason workouts, the lack of advanced work on mechanics and so forth, that we've heard about a lot, and the number of injuries some of these guys have had. But then again, sometimes guys' bodies just break down - hell, take a look at Soroka, no one seems to thin he did anything horribly wrong, but he had the same issues as Burger and it cost him what was shaping up to be a strong career. 

Isn’t it well established that Eloy blows off stretching before games?

[Balta1701]

10 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Regarding Moncada it is not just his back, according to the Fox Sports site starting in 2018 he has had a total of seven different instances where hamstring or leg issues forced him to miss games and he also missed time with a knee. That site had him listed as missing games for various reasons a grand total of 19 times.  

A guy who is trying to run with a back injury or who is trying to twist his body while also playing through a back injury is way more likely to hurt other things. This is precisely why you don't have guys play through injuries and why doing so is stupid rather than tough. It leads to you doing other things awkwardly that stress those muscles in rough ways, leading to sprains, tears, etc. Running full speed between bases with a back injury could absolutely be a reason why a guy would pull a hammy or twist an ankle. 

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

A guy who is trying to run with a back injury or who is trying to twist his body while also playing through a back injury is way more likely to hurt other things. This is precisely why you don't have guys play through injuries and why doing so is stupid rather than tough. It leads to you doing other things awkwardly that stress those muscles in rough ways, leading to sprains, tears, etc. Running full speed between bases with a back injury could absolutely be a reason why a guy would pull a hammy or twist an ankle. 

Not to mention how many pitching injuries we have, and NO ONE calls those guys out for it...

[Milkman delivers]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

A guy who is trying to run with a back injury or who is trying to twist his body while also playing through a back injury is way more likely to hurt other things. This is precisely why you don't have guys play through injuries and why doing so is stupid rather than tough. It leads to you doing other things awkwardly that stress those muscles in rough ways, leading to sprains, tears, etc. Running full speed between bases with a back injury could absolutely be a reason why a guy would pull a hammy or twist an ankle. 

I have a not-so-great back. Never had any injuries on the level of Moncada’s. I hurt different parts of my body by sleeping. Can’t imagine what the torque of a baseball swing must do the that man.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

A guy who is trying to run with a back injury or who is trying to twist his body while also playing through a back injury is way more likely to hurt other things. This is precisely why you don't have guys play through injuries and why doing so is stupid rather than tough. It leads to you doing other things awkwardly that stress those muscles in rough ways, leading to sprains, tears, etc. Running full speed between bases with a back injury could absolutely be a reason why a guy would pull a hammy or twist an ankle. 

Again I can only go by what has taken place and Moncada's back issues became a factor last season. According to the Fox site and I have no idea how accurate it is, the vast majority of his leg/hamstring injuries took place in the years before the back problem.

 

[Balta1701]

29 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Again I can only go by what has taken place and Moncada's back issues became a factor last season. According to the Fox site and I have no idea how accurate it is, the vast majority of his leg/hamstring injuries took place in the years before the back problem.

 

During the offseason after 2022, we heard reports of both Moncada and Grandal having major back issues during the year. It made sense given the big struggles of both of them, so I believe for Moncada it's at least been 2 seasons now.

[soulfly]

3 hours ago, Chimpton said:

It's not just that Moncada gets hurt alot or has back issues which may genuinely be hampering him in some situations, but he appears to have little to no baseball intelligence. The plate appearance the other day when he had 3 balls against a pitcher who had already walked 2 and then proceeded to take one down the middle and swing wildly at 2 off the plate balls was awful, it would be insulting to little leaguers to call it a little league play.

Equally, Eloy gets injured alot but similarly shows an amazing lack of baseball intelligence or ability to adjust his play to the situation on the field.

Weird, it's almost like teams should start bringing actual baseball players into their farm systems.  Not just athletes that have high ceilings.  A completely wild approach, I know.

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

During the offseason after 2022, we heard reports of both Moncada and Grandal having major back issues during the year. It made sense given the big struggles of both of them, so I believe for Moncada it's at least been 2 seasons now.

The Fox site lists seven of the leg/hamstring/knee injuries between 2018 and 2020 for what that may be worth.

[Green Line]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:28 PM, South Side Fireworks Man said:

I  remember when a couple of posters used to laugh at any post I made critical of either of these two back in the days when they were touted as major pieces of the "young championship core" LOL.

I've been saying Eloy is a bust since 2020.  All this wasted time could have been avoided.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, Green Line said:

I've been saying Eloy is a bust since 2020.  All this wasted time could have been avoided.

There were def some people saying Eloy was basically just a guess hitter and that turned out correct. You can be a guess hitter but not with his swing. I still would like to see him drop the stupid open stance and crowd the plate and just look to rip everything into the left field bullpen. It's not like he can cover the ouside corner now -- and he's not covering the inside either.