Koch to the Mets?

[Pastime]

I called my brother-in-law in New York last night (a Mets fan) just to talk to him about Cedeno. (I have no other reason to call the buffoon). He said the same thing that the ESPN report said. But he added that he's lazy, and he plays when he feels like it. Plus, the guy is fast as hell and still can't hit .280? That's a problem.

 

Roger Cedeno is a perfect poster boy for "unfulfilled potential." Let him underachieve somewhere else, not here. We're already payroll-restricted as it is - why waste money on a loser like Cedeno?

 

Cedeno's stats from last year - Games - 148, AB - 484, Runs - 70, Hits - 129, 2B - 25, 3B - 4, HR - 7, RBI - 37, OBP - .320, SLG - .378, B Avg - .267

 

Hell, we can get numbers close to that from Willie Harris, and certainly much more than that from Rowand. The money needs to be spent on PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING.

[DBAHO]

I called my brother-in-law in New York last night (a Mets fan) just to talk to him about Cedeno.  (I have no other reason to call the buffoon).  He said the same thing that the ESPN report said.  But he added that he's lazy, and he plays when he feels like it.  Plus, the guy is fast as hell and still can't hit .280?  That's a problem.

 

Roger Cedeno is a perfect poster boy for "unfulfilled potential."  Let him underachieve somewhere else, not here.  We're already payroll-restricted as it is - why waste money on a loser like Cedeno? 

 

Cedeno's stats from last year - Games - 148,  AB -  484,  Runs - 70, Hits - 129, 2B - 25, 3B - 4, HR - 7, RBI - 37, OBP - .320, SLG - .378, B Avg - .267

 

Hell, we can get numbers close to that from Willie Harris, and certainly much more than that from Rowand.  The money needs to be spent on PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING.

Absolutely agree with ya there. I certainly don't like his on base percentage, and he certainly isn't an everyday outfielder in my mind, maybe only a pinch runner. I'd like to see the Sox make a run at Ponson, Livan Hernandez, Brian Anderson, Pat Hentgen or Wilson Alvarez to help solidify their rotation.

[Pastime]

Exactly, DB. Exactly.

 

The rotation is a mess. We already lost The Michelin Man to free agency, which sucks. Yes, we still have E-Lo and Buehrle. And then what? Jon Garland? The sub-.500 pitcher that everyone keeps saying to be patient with? For cry's sake, the guy is going into his 5th year. His 4 seasons are pretty consistent - consistently average and mediocre. 4-8, 6-7, 12-12, and 12-13. I would love to have confidence in him to be solid next year, but only if he does one simple thing. He should stick two pencils in his ears, pull upward until he hears a "pop," and then realize that he finally pulled his head out of his ass.

 

The thought of Scott Schoenweiss as the 5th starter scares me. The guy stunk as a reliever for the most part.

 

If the Sox did nothing else but sign two solid starting pitchers and a solid 2B this offseason, I would do backflips that Ozzie Smith would applaud.

[DBAHO]

Exactly, DB.  Exactly. 

 

The rotation is a mess.  We already lost The Michelin Man to free agency, which sucks.  Yes, we still have E-Lo and Buehrle.  And then what?  Jon Garland?  The sub-.500 pitcher that everyone keeps saying to be patient with?  For cry's sake, the guy is going into his 5th year.  His 4 seasons are pretty consistent - consistently average and mediocre.  4-8, 6-7, 12-12, and 12-13.  I would love to have confidence in him to be solid next year, but only if he does one simple thing.  He should stick two pencils in his ears, pull upward until he hears a "pop," and then realize that he finally pulled his head out of his ass. 

 

The thought of Scott Schoenweiss as the 5th starter scares me.  The guy stunk as a reliever for the most part. 

 

If the Sox did nothing else but sign two solid starting pitchers and a solid 2B this offseason, I would do backflips that Ozzie Smith would applaud.

I think Ozzie knows how important the rotation is as well. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he said just give me 5 good starters and 1 closer. I think Jon Rauch or Josh Stewart could be the 5th starter, and we should sign 1 veteran to be our #3. Here's a possible rotation,

1) Mark Buerhle

2) Esteban Loaiza

3) Livan Hernandez

4) Jon Garland

5) Jon Rauch or another veteran e.g Brian Anderson.

Also I think we'll target Chad Fox an ex Florida guy to help solidify our bullpen, not make it worse like that other off season signing, Rick White.

[YASNY]

I do not want to see Roger Cedeno on the Sox. Ever. He's terrible.

[Pastime]

DBAHO,

 

I agree with you. I hate to bring this up, and I get sick of hearing it, but it's so true - Baseball is 90% pitching and defense.

 

I want a starting rotation that is really solid. I know we can't go out and spend like we just won the lottery, but 5 solid starters is all I ask. The Marlins didn't have a dominant rotation, but it found its niche in the playoffs, and we all saw what happened.

 

Having a team that's great at hitting is important, but overrated. Look at this year's Braves, the 2000 White Sox, the 1998 Orioles, this year's Giants, the 2001 Yankees, the 1999 Cardinals, etc. Good pitching shuts down good hitting. Why can't anyone comprehend this?

 

Yas,

 

I agree 150%. The only way I want Cedeno on this team is as the 4th outfielder, or the guy who changes the urinal cakes.

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

By and large, if you have someone like Koch that you're so eager to dump, you're gonna get back the other team's version of Koch, that is, a large contract for a bum they want to dump. Cedeno fits that description. I say keep Koch unless you know that the guy you get back won't make a bad situation worse. I liked that 3 way trade idea, however.

[winninguglyin83]

Not only is Cedeno awful and overpaid, he would cause another problem by blocking Rowand/Harris/Reed from getting the job.

 

Much rather see the Sox give Rowand or Willie a legitimate chance to play CF than to watch some bum from a bad Mets' team.

 

Keep Koch and let the Mets dump Cedeno elsewhere.

[Rex Hudler]

I agree with you. I hate to bring this up, and I get sick of hearing it, but it's so true - Baseball is 90% pitching and defense.

 

The other half is baserunning and hitting.

[Rex Hudler]

WTF Kenny, get your s*** together. If they do this, then its almost guaranteed that Gordon will be brought back, wasting another $5 mill. Jeezus, I'm completely lost right now in terms of what the hell KW is trying to do, and methinks he is confused also.

 

No need to overreact Capn. All the article said is that the Mets would approach the Sox about this. Nowhere does it say that KW is doing anything more than laughing at the very thought.

 

Going back to a conversation I had with a little birdie in NY.... He said that Koch is not high on the Mets list right now and that Foulke and Gordon are their most likely targets. If they can dump Cedeno, sure they will take Koch. That is a no- brainer. I also think that it is a no-brainer for KW to laugh at that offer, but then again, you never know with KW.

[BrandoFan]

Good pitching shuts down good hitting. Why can't anyone comprehend this?

 

Because it's not always true.

 

Pedro was spanked both times in ALCS. Wood and Zambrano were smoked in NLCS. Prior looked very human. Key relievers Ugueth Urbina and Jose Contreras and Looper had difficulty getting out of innings without giving up runs/getting in a jam. Clemens hardly "beat" Florida's unspectacular hitting. Neither did Wells. And Redman as crushed.

 

Beckett and Rivera were the exceptions.

 

ON TOPIC:

 

Koch is done. The reason why his normally mediocre control was terrible in 2003 and velocity dropped by a whopping 5-7 MPH is because he simply didn't have his range of motion and arm speed circa Toronto days.

He is injured and mentally cooked.

Rolaids? He was the most overrated reliever in baseball in 2002.

 

Mets are the ONLY team who wants him. Get real. Cedeno is deeply mediocre, but if Sox save 2-3 Mill on a deal, do it.

[Guest JimH]

Brando, thank you, you said it better than I could.

 

No way do I think Cedeno is the Second Coming, but I do think he's better than Rowand ... so we can agree to disagree on that issue (others who posted).

 

I'm just not confident at all that Koch will ever regain form. His problems started in August 2002 and they've only gotten worse.

 

Sometimes it's "I'll take your underachiever if you take mine". Maybe a change of scenery helps both guys, who knows.

 

Maybe it's a little fresh in my mind since it worked out so well for the Cubs with Karros and Grudz-alphabet.

[JoshPR]

I would definitely trade Koch and his contract for Roger Cedeno ... Cedeno is not as bad an outfielder as you guys are saying.

 

He's got the speed to play CF, he doesn't have quite the plate discipline I'd like but he's a bigger threat than anyone we have now.

 

I say YES.

He's bad in left and He's worse in Center. Gets really bad jumps on the ball and always looks like an ass going after them.

 

SAY NO TO CEDENO

[BrandoFan]

No way do I think Cedeno is the Second Coming, but I do think he's better than Rowand ... so we can agree to disagree on that issue (others who posted).

 

I don't even know if that's truue because Rowand has a limited amount of at-bats, most of his starts came during periods of time when Sox were out of contention. If 100% of pitchers were LH, then for sure, but it remains to be seen how he does under high pressure, against mostly RHP

 

Cedeno meanwhile has shown ability to steal 50-60 bases, so you know the speed is there as he just turned 29. He also could take a walk in the past. If anything, if Willie Harris can't hit lefties and Jeremy Reed ia not ready, we can use Cedeno.

 

Perhaps lack of work ethic/desire has to do with his last 2 years beng bad; playing in a pitcher's park didn't help. Who knows.

 

Lets save 3+ mill on the deal. Saving more would require actual cunning and negotiation prowess the like of which Kenny doesn't possess.

[whitesox61382]

"Cedeno meanwhile has shown ability to steal 50-60 bases, so you know the speed is there as he just turned 29."

 

Stealing bases has to be one of the most overrated aspects in todays game, especially if you aren't sucessful on 75%+ of your attempts. Risking an out for base isn't a good risk, espciallt if you have a lineup that hits 200+ HR's. Not to mention the fact that a runner at 1B is good thing in some ways(pitcher shorting his delivery, big hole between 1B and 2B, ect.). The one HUGE thing that you are ignoring is the fact that Cedeno is one of the worst defensive outfielders in the game. He would easily be the worst defensive CF in the AL next year. Is that something you want out of one of the most important defensive positions on the field? In a small sample size, Rowand has shown that he is a better hitter and has more potential for improvement.

 

"Lets save 3+ mill on the deal. Saving more would require actual cunning and negotiation prowess the like of which Kenny doesn't possess.'

 

Where are you coming up with this math? Lets get it straight, Cedeno has 2 years left on his contract in which he makes a little more then 10M. That equals a little more then 5M/yr. Koch on the other hand makes a little more then 6M next year. The difference would be about 1M not 3M+, not only that but the Sox are stuck with Cedeno for 2 years. The fact is that Cedeno is nothing more then a 4th outfielder. Koch might not be a great closer, but he has proven to be a decent closer over the past couple of years. Koch's value far outweighs Cedeno, and the fact that the Sox only save 1M AND have to put up with Cedeno for 2 years makes this one of the worst possible moves that the Sox could make. There is a reason that no one agrees with either Brando or Jim, its because they look at this move with common sense.

[BrandoFan]

Stealing bases has to be one of the most overrated aspects in todays game, especially if you aren't sucessful on 75%+ of your attempts. Risking an out for base isn't a good risk, espciallt if you have a lineup that hits 200+ HR's

 

Geezuussssss, we've been over this, haven't we? Ghastly repetition, here I come....

 

While it's undoubtedly true that a sub-60% base-stealer is a detriment to a team (though, as a to-be small ball team, Sox would need more baserunning to survive in 2004).....it's also just as true that an OVER-80% base-stealer is a big ASSET to a team--- think about how many DP's overswinging Sox grounded into with nobody out in 2003. You don't need me to tell you that with a runner standing at 2nd, a grounder to 2B/up the middle moves him over to third with just 1 out instead of killing the inning.........

 

And let me quickly dispel the notion that "speed" is just steals- it WAY MORE than that. Remember, for instance, Rowand getting thrown out at the plate from 1st in a crucial game against Boston? Cedeno is safe and we win......Sox were awful at going from 1st to 3rd on singles, unlike Minnesota which made living doing that because their players had more speed. Cedeno when healthy flies past 2nd....Etc, etc, etc.

 

Speaking of pitchers shortening strides, a fast runner who is a CONSTANT threat to steal, if anything else, distracts a pitcher, with the latter frequently falling behind in the count...which only helps the batter. Gap between 1st and 2nd? With Everett standing at 1st, some first basemen still chose to play the hole........Generally, the better the base-stealer is, the WIDER the gap. Outfield and infield defense also have to adjust to prevent extra bases taken, with all attendant benefits to the hitter.

 

Where are you coming up with this math?

 

As it is, Sox are only saving a mill. That doesn't get it done for me. Knowing the Mets' past, saving face-related generosity with respect to Robbie's slary, I specifically mentioned them having to pick up at least another 2 million even if that costs us a mid-levels prospect or two in the process.

 

You ARE right about Cedeno's defense......as well as about Rowand being all potential at this point.

 

It would interesting to see if Cedeno can regain the plate discipline he had as a 25-26. Might be wishful thinking on my part, but I since I think Koch is DONE, may be worth a shot.

[Flash Tizzle]

No offense to the author of this thread, but i wish this topic would DIE. Only because Im tired of coming onto soxtalk and seeing "Koch to the Mets" on the top of the site everyday.

 

We have all said the same arguments repeatively....."were switching one bad player for another"......."Koch will rebound"......"Cedano brings speed to the basepaths/outfield".

 

Of course there's not going to be alot of new topics to discuss at this point in the offseason.....just any thread with the name Koch in the title makes me :puke

[aboz56]

No offense to the author of this thread, but i wish this topic would DIE.  Only because Im tired of coming onto soxtalk and seeing "Koch to the Mets" on the top of the site everyday.

Could be worse, the topic could be pinned....

[whitesox61382]

The biggest problem I have with Cedeno is his down right terrible defense, especially at an important defensive position like CF. I do think the Sox need to add speed, although I still believe that the SB is an overrated aspect in todays 3-HR oriented offenses. Furthermore, Cedeno has a sub-80% stolen base rate over his career, has seen his SB decrease drasticly over the past 2 years, and he isn't know as a SMART baserunner. I would much rather have Rowand in CF because of the drastic difference defensively, the better offensive numbers in a small sample size, the fact that he is making the minimum, and he has the chance to be a much more important part of the future/has more potential. The whole point with moving Koch is to free up money, and adding Cedeno doesn't do that. Furthermore, I hate the fact that the Sox will be stuck with Cedeno for 2 years opposed to getting rid of Koch at the end of this year.

[Wong & Owens]

The biggest problem I have with Cedeno is his down right terrible defense, especially at an important defensive position like CF. I do think the Sox need to add speed, although I still believe that the SB is an overrated aspect in todays 3-HR oriented offenses. Furthermore, Cedeno has a sub-80% stolen base rate over his career, has seen his SB decrease drasticly over the past 2 years, and he isn't know as a SMART baserunner. I would much rather have Rowand in CF because of the drastic difference defensively, the better offensive numbers in a small sample size, the fact that he is making the minimum, and he has the chance to be a much more important part of the future/has more potential. The whole point with moving Koch is to free up money, and adding Cedeno doesn't do that. Furthermore, I hate the fact that the Sox will be stuck with Cedeno for 2 years opposed to getting rid of Koch at the end of this year.

In addition to his Canseco-esque defense, he also has a reputation for being lazy, stupid, and stubborn. The last thing the Sox need is another player like that. I'd take my chances with Rowand or Reed before I sign Cedeno. At least when Koch sucks, he still provides a good vibe for the clubhouse.

[BrandoFan]

I do think the Sox need to add speed, although I still believe that the SB is an overrated aspect in todays 3-HR oriented offenses

 

 

Oriented-shmoriented,  Sox are gonna have to be more reliant on speed, and base-stealing/extra-base taking and keeping opposition nervous is a big part of it......Since the DH went into effect in AL, the average team socres only 4 tens of a run more.  Let's not pretend like modern teams score 2-3 more runs per game and as such have little need for base stealing.........Of all team, Sox have been so horrible with GIDPs and base-taking in crucial situations, we need a new direction.

 

Furthermore, Cedeno has a sub-80% stolen base rate over his career

 

My bad, in my mind I confused him with Pokey Reese, another underachieving bum. Still, even with the recent decline, his 77% success rate is pretty damn good. Not as good as Beltran, Robbie or A-Rod, but so what?

 

addition to his Canseco-esque defense, he also has a reputation for being lazy, stupid, and stubborn

 

That what I meant by "possible reasons for his premature decline".

 

Again, this is not a clear-cut case, either way. Risks are involved, and our GM has his work cut out for him.

[YASNY]

Though the stolen base, itself, is over rated, the effects of speed on the game iss not. However, one of the arguements in favor of additional speed is the the value of it when on defense. In this case, Cedeno, it does not apply because he is such a terrible defensive outfielder.

 

On other point I'd like to make. If RISKING an out for a base, via the stolen base attempt, is considered bad baseball, then what do you consider SACRIFICING an out for a base, via the sacifice bunt?

[Rex Hudler]

Though the stolen base, itself, is over rated, the effects of speed on the game iss not.  However, one of the arguements in favor of additional speed is the the value of it when on defense.  In this case, Cedeno, it does not apply because he is such a terrible defensive outfielder.

 

On other point I'd like to make.  If RISKING an out for a base, via the stolen base attempt, is considered bad baseball, then what do you consider SACRIFICING an out for a base, via the sacifice bunt?

The sacrifice is villified in Billy Beane/Sabermetric circles as well.

[BrandoFan]

The sacrifice is villified in Billy Beane/Sabermetric circles as well.

That's what happens when nerds hijack a sport.

 

The funniest part is, Oakland lost Game 5 in the bottom of the 9th when they sacrifized the runners over to 2nd/3rd with one out, down by a run. Melhuse and Long proceeded to royally choke.

 

I bet this little episode will serve as inspiration for a five-tome, autobiographical opus extolling the many virtues of being Billy Beane.

[cwsox]

In addition to his Canseco-esque defense, he also has a reputation for being lazy, stupid, and stubborn.  The last thing the Sox need is another player like that.  I'd take my chances with Rowand or Reed before I sign Cedeno.  At least when Koch sucks, he still provides a good vibe for the clubhouse.

every once in a while someone puts together 4 sentences that just say so much - GOWT, you are exactly right.