Paulie4Pres Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 6 minutes ago, 4OCS said: I’m failing to see how signing an above average starting pitcher for three million is incompetent, from a purely baseball standpoint. Buying low is normally considered a good practice in player acquisition, no? The only real argument being made by anyone here is that the Sox shouldn’t sign someone that they dislike Above average. Lol. Let's see how he looks when he actually pitches, shall we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 I can't imagine spending this much time defending Clevinger, down to arguing words for technicalities over FaCts. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, Dick Allen said: Then how would you know he didn't have therapy? I know he did not have MLB mandated therapy because MLB did not take disciplinary action, which would be required to issue any mandates. What Clev does on his free time is not my business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I can't imagine spending this much time defending Clevinger, down to arguing words for technicalities over FaCts. I must have missed the facts you have stated. I see you spend a lot of time attacking Clevinger, way more than I spent on this thread in fact, while ignoring the facts though, so I wouldn’t think it would be that much of a stretch of the imagination Edited April 2 by 4OCS 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 minutes ago, 4OCS said: I know he did not have MLB mandated therapy because MLB did not take disciplinary action, which would be required to issue any mandates. What Clev does on his free time is not my business What if that board that he was supposed to be evaluated by said he needed therapy, wouldn't that technically be MLB mandated therapy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Above average is carrying a lot of weight in this post. I just looked up his fangraphs. No idea how he was the one guy last year to out perform his FIP and xERA by that much, but it sure makes a solid regression case, and the projections seem to agree. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 6 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: Above average. Lol. Let's see how he looks when he actually pitches, shall we? You realize he had a 3.3 WAR last season, no? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 4 minutes ago, 4OCS said: I must have missed the facts you have stated. I see you spend a lot of time attacking Clevinger, way more than I spent on this thread in fact, while ignoring the facts though, so I wouldn’t think it would be that much of a stretch of the imagination Your agenda here has been clear from post 1. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 6 minutes ago, 4OCS said: Not sure what you mean. Even a well below average starting pitcher gets well north of three million these days, at any rate Well above average for the Sox last year vs. the rest of baseball...and then he's also gone through two major arm injuries as well already. Shelf life on those guys has been pretty limited in terms of starters who throw well into the 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Just now, southsider2k5 said: Your agenda here has been clear from post 1. Lol. Is that another of your so called facts? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie4Pres Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 minutes ago, 4OCS said: You realize he had a 3.3 WAR last season, no? See below: 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I just looked up his fangraphs. No idea how he was the one guy last year to out perform his FIP and xERA by that much, but it sure makes a solid regression case, and the projections seem to agree. Which, again, is probably why nobody had any interest in him. Basically last season can be attributed almost entirely to luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I just looked up his fangraphs. No idea how he was the one guy last year to out perform his FIP and xERA by that much, but it sure makes a solid regression case, and the projections seem to agree. Clearly you hate the guy but he did have a 2.2 fWAR season in 2023. If does anything close to that again in 2024, $3M is well below market rate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 9 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: See below: Which, again, is probably why nobody had any interest in him. Basically last season can be attributed almost entirely to luck. Did you look up the stats? his FIP was 4.28 compared to 3.77 ERA which is well within the normal discrepancy between the two, and well within his own normal difference: 3.40 ERA compared to 3.82 FIP on his career. The claim he was “the one guy to out perform his FIP and xERA by that much” is so blatantly false I’m not even going to bother to cite a counter example. You’ve got to really be abandoning reason to argue he hasn’t been an above average major league pitcher including last year. And ignore the fact far inferior stqrting pitchers routinely sign for more than three million per year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 18 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: See below: Which, again, is probably why nobody had any interest in him. Basically last season can be attributed almost entirely to luck. Complete trash got more than Clevinger did. It's not that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, 4OCS said: Did you look up the stats? his FIP was 4.28 compared to 3.77 ERA which is well within the normal discrepancy between the two, and well within his own normal difference: 3.40 ERA compared to 3.82 FIP on his career. The claim he was “the one guy to out perform his FIP and xERA by that much” is so blatantly false I’m not even going to bother to cite a counter example. You’ve got to really be abandoning reason to argue he hasn’t been an above average major league pitcher including last year. And ignore the fact far inferior stqrting pitchers routinely sign for more than three million per year Agent or family? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie4Pres Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, 4OCS said: Did you look up the stats? his FIP was 4.28 compared to 3.77 ERA which is well within the normal discrepancy between the two, and well within his own normal difference: 3.40 ERA compared to 3.82 FIP on his career. The claim he was “the one guy to out perform his FIP and xERA by that much” is so blatantly false I’m not even going to bother to cite a counter example. You’ve got to really be abandoning reason to argue he hasn’t been an above average major league pitcher including last year. And ignore the fact far inferior stqrting pitchers routinely sign for more than three million per year So, once again, we are right back to why did nobody want him, and why did he sign for so cheap? Weird that no other team in baseball wanted to upgrade their rotation with a far superior pitcher. Super weird that Clevinger had to sign a dirt cheap contract with the worst team in baseball... Man, are the White Sox lucky. Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Agent or family? Still waiting on example of them facts you were talking about. Or an example of how I am attempting to perform page moderation as per your previous claim when you had no reasonable counter for my arguments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Just now, 4OCS said: Still waiting on example of them facts you were talking about. Or an example of how I am attempting to perform page moderation as per your previous claim when you had no reasonable counter for my arguments Agent or family? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said: So, once again, we are right back to why did nobody want him, and why did he sign for so cheap? Weird that no other team in baseball wanted to upgrade their rotation with a far superior pitcher. Super weird that Clevinger had to sign a dirt cheap contract with the worst team in baseball... Man, are the White Sox lucky. Lol My argument was that from a purely baseball, it is a good deal, not that there were no reasons no other team signed him. I have made no comment in relation to that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Agent or family? Answer this. Why did you just claim Clevinger was “the one guy to out perform his FIP and xERA by that much last year” when that is straight up false? Meanwhile you haven’t identified single thing I’ve stated that is false, while claiming I am ignoring facts and have an agenda. If I had an agenda wouldn’t I be the one telling lies, employing insinuation and poisoning the well instead of simply formulating arguments and calmly delivering them in the face of ad hominem attacks such as “obtuse asshat”. Edited April 2 by 4OCS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 9 minutes ago, 4OCS said: Answer this. Why did you just claim Clevinger was “the one guy to out perform his FIP and xERA by that much last year” when that is straight up false? Meanwhile you haven’t identified single thing I’ve stated that is false, while claiming I am ignoring facts and have an agenda. If I had an agenda wouldn’t I be the one telling lies, employing insinuation and poisoning the well instead of simply formulating arguments and calmly delivering them in the face of ad hominem attacks such as “obtuse asshat”. Calm down bud, you're right, but you're being an asshole. You're gonna have to pace yourself here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46DidIt Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Just now, chitownsportsfan said: Calm down bud, you're right, but you're being an asshole. You're gonna have to pace yourself here. Well, if you think I’m being an ass hole by stating reasoned arguments backed by actual facts while responding to the comments from southsider and southside hitmen, in which I was baselessly accused of attempting “page moderation” and being an ass hat, then I would argue you don’t have a very good handle on what an ass hole is. Please identify a single rude comment I have made anywhere on this board 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Sox are paying Leury Garcia almost double what they owe Clevinger. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 17 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: Return on investment? So they can win 61 games instead of 57? It's a trash move by a third rate franchise who keeps shooting themselves in the foot. Again if they really thought he was worth a "Return on investment", they would have looked to bring him back months ago for more than barely over minimum. He obviously wasn't someone they placed a real premium on after seeing him for an entire year. You're ignoring the fact that a couple months ago Clevinger was hoping for more money. He thought after pitching well he'd get better offers even though no one wanted him at the deadline. Maybe he chalked that up to the injury. Then he opted out right. Clearly thinking he'd get more. He's either getting really bad advice or thinking he's not a bad guy and can't comprehend why he is unwanted. Sounds idiotic to me also but clearly Clevinger held out for more until it became apparent that only 1 team was willing to pay him anything. It's already been said by Harold I think that the Sox had that offer out to him for a while but he wouldn't take it. He finally came to his senses and accepted it. He knows he can't miss a year. He has to keep pitching and keep showing he's not everything his reputation makes him out to be . He was out of options. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: You're ignoring the fact that a couple months ago Clevinger was hoping for more money. He thought after pitching well he'd get better offers even though no one wanted him at the deadline. Maybe he chalked that up to the injury. Then he opted out right. Clearly thinking he'd get more. He's either getting really bad advice or thinking he's not a bad guy and can't comprehend why he is unwanted. Sounds idiotic to me also but clearly Clevinger held out for more until it became apparent that only 1 team was willing to pay him anything. It's already been said by Harold I think that the Sox had that offer out to him for a while but he wouldn't take it. He finally came to his senses and accepted it. He knows he can't miss a year. He has to keep pitching and keep showing he's not everything his reputation makes him out to be . He was out of options. Sox had leverage and used it instead of doubling the offer. Rare win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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