White Sox bring Mike Clevinger back, pending physical

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Lol the contract guy?  Who gives a f***?

- White Sox fans about Rick Hahn in 2008 when he was being listed as a top GM candidate

[WestEddy]

23 minutes ago, JoeC said:

RE: Getz and his track record for developing players, I'll let someone else who (presumably) isn't on SoxTalk make my statement:

 

Crazy that he is as inarticulate when it comes to describing his problem with Getz as Director of Development as the naysayers, here. As I look at the 2017-2020 drafts, I see pitchers who either were slowed by injury, or when they got to AAA, they were junk-ballers who could barely hang on at that level. 

2018's draft is notable in that 10 players, as I've mentioned, progressed to the majors. Davis Martin would be in our starting rotation right now if not for his TJS. Steele Walker and Conner Pilkington were developed enough to trade for upgrades to the MLB roster. Cody Heuer - good arm. Traded. 

Weaker, later round dudes were developed to be utility or bullpen arms, as expected. AJ keeps going to the same, "aside from the successes, it's all failures" BS. Why doesn't he get to claim 1st rounders as successes? Luis Robert was developed. Jake Burger was developed. 

Again, I'm not "defending" Chris Getz. It's insulting to get lazy arguments that don't even make sense thrown out there and have to pretend that somebody just said something prescient, just because the mob is all shouting the same nonsensical BS. 

[Snopek]

Wasting spring training AB's on Mike Moustakas was a cool time for everyone. Glad Getz and his bud got to hang out.

Also, Getz choosing to retain Grifol despite 101 losses and well documented clubhouse issues for a team that was trying to contend might as well be a new hire.

 

Edit: Grammar is hard sometimes.

Edited April 4 by Snopek

[WhiteSox2023]

51 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

It has been proven otherwise. Everybody screamed about hiring from within. Getz brought in people from other organizations. He's changing the focus of international scouting. We'll see what the 2024 draft looks like. 

But to declare it to be a continuation of Hahn/KW is just lazy. Again, I get not liking the hire, and being slow to offer any positive feedback on anything until he shows he's not a lapdog. Great. But there are clear differences in approach. 

Keeping Nastrini and Montgomery at AAA to further develop is one clear difference. 

Weird how all the people who were wailing about Nastrini making the rotation after only a small amount of AAA innings aren't stepping up and voicing their approval for starting him off in Charlotte. I get it that the Clevenger signing mutes everything else. 

You have been talking about people not having any proof of anything they say.  Yet, you have no proof to say that both Nastrini and Montgomery would have made the Sox opening day roster if Hahn was still the GM or if someone else was hired other than Getz.  And here you are, giving credit to Getz for keeping them in the minors.

[WestEddy]

41 minutes ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

I'd rather they have given Barfield the top job than Getz. I'd be far more optimistic. 

No you wouldn't. 

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

No you wouldn't. 

I absolutely would be, as it would show they were willing to bring in a fresh perspective and moving on from an awful regime.

[WestEddy]

15 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said:

Exactly. Plus he was drafted as a starter and was thrown into the bullpen by the last POS GM. It’s the right move to make him a starter again, but it’s the obvious move and not something I’m giving him a ton of credit for.

Proving my point further. I don't care if you give him credit or not. Turning him back into a starter again was not the obvious move. Making him closer and trading him in July was the easiest, most obvious move. Half the board, here, screamed about ramping him up in under a few years. 

[WestEddy]

16 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Which once again should prove WestEddy wrong.  Getz hasn’t developed s%*#.

That is a demonstrably wrong statement. Getz was involved in the "development" of Robert, Jimenez, Burger, etc. If you're going to say that Getz hasn't developed anybody, you are wrong. 

[Nardiwashere]

2 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Wasting spring training AB's on Mike Moustakas was a cool time for everyone. Glad Getz and his bud got to hang out.

Also, Getz choosing to retain Grifol despite 101 losses and well documented clubhouse issues for a team that was trying to contend might as well be a new hire.

 

Edit: Grammar is hard sometimes.

Grifol is a moron and he's not going to be around after this year.  If Getz signs Grifol to an extension, I'll join you guys in the outrage. 

Wasting precious spring training at bats to a guy (that didn't make the team!) they hoped would maybe take a roster spot away from another guy people wanted to DFA instead of Jose Rodriguez  was a horrible thing.  I agree.  I hope the organization can overcome that in the coming years. 

[WestEddy]

8 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Wasting spring training AB's on Mike Moustakas was a cool time for everyone. Glad Getz and his bud got to hang out.

Also, Getz choosing to retain Grifol despite 101 losses and well documented clubhouse issues for a team that was trying to contend might as well be a new hire.

Who gets the ABs that Moose took away? I think most people here agreed the Moose signing was meant to push or replace Sheets. If there's another lefty 1B in the upper minors who suffered for those 46 PA's I'd be happy to hear about it. 

And it's weird that everybody, to a person, will say that Reinsdorf doesn't want to pay 2 managers, so Grifol had to stay. But Getz decided to keep him. Please don't say he should quit. 

[Snopek]

2 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Grifol is a moron and he's not going to be around after this year.  If Getz signs Grifol to an extension, I'll join you guys in the outrage. 

Wasting precious spring training at bats to a guy (that didn't make the team!) they hoped would maybe take a roster spot away from another guy people wanted to DFA instead of Jose Rodriguez  was a horrible thing.  I agree.  I hope the organization can overcome that in the coming years. 

The point being Grifol is still here because Getz decided to keep him.

The other point being, yes, all spring training at bats are precious for a team like the Sox who are trying to find out what they have in guys at almost every position. The Moose thing was a waste of everyone's time. 

[Nardiwashere]

13 minutes ago, fathom said:

I absolutely would be, as it would show they were willing to bring in a fresh perspective and moving on from an awful regime.

I think we'd hear a lot of "Barfield worked for Arizona and LaRussa worked for Arizona so he's essentially an internal hire."

And then Barfield would have hired some nerd from the Diamondbacks to negotiate contracts and calculate budgets and people would cite him as proof of more of the same. 

[GREEDY]

Getz has done a fine job with the payroll constraints he's been given.  

This Clevinger signing likely came from panicked ownership and had little to do with Getz.

 

[T R U]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

He's made two starts, I think it is a bit early to be declaring he's an "ace" of any kind yet.

He may turn out to be but with very little track record it is hard to say. 

You'll have to excuse WestEddy, he also declared Fletcher a 6 year all star when that trade happened. He kind of isn't good at snap evaluations.

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

RE: Getz and his track record for developing players, I'll let someone else who (presumably) isn't on SoxTalk make my statement:

 

Oh, and just for the record, no 10th rounders taken in 2017, 2018 or 2019 made any noticeable impact in the majors, to date. 

So another stupid talking point dies a lonely death. 

[Snopek]

9 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Who gets the ABs that Moose took away? I think most people here agreed the Moose signing was meant to push or replace Sheets. If there's another lefty 1B in the upper minors who suffered for those 46 PA's I'd be happy to hear about it. 

Literally anyone other than me would have been better off getting those ABs than Moose. He played 1B, why not let Elko get some more ABs? He played 3B, why not let Ramos get some more ABs?

And if the argument truly is that it was meant to push or replace Sheets, well that just brings it back to the Royals connection. Perhaps you could have gotten someone that would be a little more of a threat than the soon-to-be-out-of-baseball pal of Getz.

[WestEddy]

2 minutes ago, T R U said:

You'll have to excuse WestEddy, he also declared Fletcher a 6 year all star when that trade happened. He kind of isn't good at snap evaluations.

And a lot of people here aren't very good and figuring out what's a joke, and what's not. 

All I saw was a dude walk out there and shut down one of the best offenses in the game for 7 innings. 

[T R U]

1 hour ago, Nardiwashere said:

I think it is that simple.  The guy turned over an incredible % of the roster in one offseason.  His top assistants in the front office are all from outside the organization.  He has clearly been operating differently than the previous guys.  People just like to b****. 

We don't know if he'll end up being any good at his job... but so far it doesn't seem like a change in name only.

They've traded a SP prospect for a situational (and that's even questionable right now) 26 year old OFer that we had no need for at this point in time.

They've traded Dylan Cease for what the overwhelming majority feels was a pretty bad return.

They just dropped a prospect when the roster is filled with trash that has no future in this organization.

There have been far more head scratching moves than encouraging ones. That's for damn sure.

[Nardiwashere]

Just now, Snopek said:

Literally anyone other than me would have been better off getting those ABs than Moose. He played 1B, why not let Elko get some more ABs? He played 3B, why not let Ramos get some more ABs?

And if the argument truly is that it was meant to push or replace Sheets, well that just brings it back to the Royals connection. Perhaps you could have gotten someone that would be a little more of a threat than the soon-to-be-out-of-baseball pal of Getz.

Ok, so what's your implication?  That Getz is so loyal to (obsessed with?) the Kansas City Royals that he brought a guy in to spring training (and then cut) at the expense of deserving players (that he also failed to develop into viable MLBers) because he wanted to spend more time with a former teammate for a couple weeks? 

Maybe.

It could also be that Moustakas was a guy they took a no-risk chance to bring in to see if he had anything left and it didn't work out.  You know, like what happens every spring with every team.

[WestEddy]

2 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Literally anyone other than me would have been better off getting those ABs than Moose. He played 1B, why not let Elko get some more ABs? He played 3B, why not let Ramos get some more ABs?

And if the argument truly is that it was meant to push or replace Sheets, well that just brings it back to the Royals connection. Perhaps you could have gotten someone that would be a little more of a threat than the soon-to-be-out-of-baseball pal of Getz.

Because Ramos and Elko probably got way more ABs in front of Grifol than they should have. Nobody talks about Elko being a serious prospect. Ramos may be up this year, but he may be a good year away. Shew and Sosa should have been getting the ab's that Ramos was getting. 

[JoeC]

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Oh, and just for the record, no 10th rounders taken in 2017, 2018 or 2019 made any noticeable impact in the majors, to date. 

So another stupid talking point dies a lonely death. 

Do later picks count?

Just from 2017, there are several picks from later than the 10th round who have made "noticeable impact."

AJ's point is that the Sox have taken blue-chip guys and turned them into, at best, what was expected of them.

They haven't taken any "take a flyer on this kid" guys and turned them into anything more than utility guys / mid-bullpen arms in quite some time.

[Snopek]

24 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

I think we'd hear a lot of "Barfield worked for Arizona and LaRussa worked for Arizona so he's essentially an internal hire."

And then Barfield would have hired some nerd from the Diamondbacks to negotiate contracts and calculate budgets and people would cite him as proof of more of the same. 

Love the hypothetical arguing with no one you're doing here.

 

1 hour ago, Nardiwashere said:

People just like to b****. 

Indeed.

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, T R U said:

They've traded a SP prospect for a situational (and that's even questionable right now) 26 year old OFer that we had no need for at this point in time.

They've traded Dylan Cease for what the overwhelming majority feels was a pretty bad return.

They just dropped a prospect when the roster is filled with trash that has no future in this organization.

There have been far more head scratching moves than encouraging ones. That's for damn sure.

The *professional* opinions I saw grading the Cease trade fall on the "a little light" part of the spectrum. I've not seen anybody with any credibility refer to the trade return as "pretty bad".

At best, Jose Rodriguez is a future utility infielder who can't take a walk, and OBPed under .300 while hitting .270. Being on a "top 30 prospect list" doesn't insure a full career starting in the majors. 

Situational? Like, looking at 2/3 of the PAs at a position is a situation? 

Seriously, if you try, you can even make drafting Frank Thomas look like a dumb decision. 

[WestEddy]

5 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Do later picks count?

Just from 2017, there are several picks from later than the 10th round who have made "noticeable impact."

AJ's point is that the Sox have taken blue-chip guys and turned them into, at best, what was expected of them.

They haven't taken any "take a flyer on this kid" guys and turned them into anything more than utility guys / mid-bullpen arms in quite some time.

It's a weird pivot, when AJ asks, "Where are all the prospects he's developed?" Then has to move the goal-posts to non-blue chip, then to late rounders. 

Jake Burger wasn't a "blue chip" prospect. He was a bat-first prospect who everyone questioned his ability to stay at 3B. Luis Robert needed coaching on pitch selection and fielding. It's disingenuous to start eliminating successes. I mean, if Chris Getz did such a crappy job as director of player development, you wouldn't have to make special rules to eliminate the people who disprove the claim. 

 

[Nardiwashere]

8 minutes ago, T R U said:

They've traded a SP prospect for a situational (and that's even questionable right now) 26 year old OFer that we had no need for at this point in time.

They've traded Dylan Cease for what the overwhelming majority feels was a pretty bad return.

They just dropped a prospect when the roster is filled with trash that has no future in this organization.

There have been far more head scratching moves than encouraging ones. That's for damn sure.

Just like people are not calling Crochet an ace after 2 starts, I'm not going to make any determination on Dom Fletcher on April 4.  If he turns out to be bad, that's on Getz and the front office.  It was a baseball trade.  They targeted a guy they liked and got him.  I don't remember Hahn ever really doing that.  It was like when KW went and got "The Carlos Quentin."  The idea is that this guy is someone who can be a starting OFer for the team in the future.  Are they correct?  Who knows.  But I wouldn't call it a headscratcher.  I see the thought process. 

The Cease deal is also early to judge.  You say an overwhelming majority feels it was a bad return.  Outside of Soxtalk and twitter, I don't know if I agree.  Guys like Jim Callis all seem to think it was fair.