White Sox bring Mike Clevinger back, pending physical

[Paulie4Pres]

WestEddy is a White Sox employee, and you will not convince me otherwise. No other White Sox "fan" would spend this much time on here defending the White Sox organization, without getting paid to do so. 

The organization has earned no benefit of the doubt. There is no reason to have any confidence that THIS TIME they promoted a Reinsdorf "yes-man", will be any different from the last few decades of the same nepotistic bullshit.

Nothing Getz has accomplished before being promoted, tells us he knows what he's doing. He was "in charge" of one of the worst farm systems in the MLB, until they started trading assets away to fix it. They have consistently spent high draft picks on guys that turn into below average MLB players. The White Sox haven't "developed" any impact players, aside from the ones that were fully EXPECTED to be impact players, during his tenure. In fact, one could argue the can't miss prospects ALL have significant flaws that the White Sox are seemingly unable to address. Players straight up regress with the MLB club, almost without exception.

But carry on. This s%*# is entertaining. 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The person asked which players Getz, as director of player development, could "get credit" for. I'm not sure what your argument would be. Did Burger's wife manage a minor league team and throw him batting practice? 

It's funny when people play the, "I will not agree to any facts." game.

"The White Sox don't even play baseball on Earth! There!"

Getz thought so highly of Burger he let him play in a college summer league in the St. Louis area during his comeback.

Burger and Sheets came up with the idea of a new hitting practice tool on their own last year, too.

[Milkman delivers]

3 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Proving my point further. I don't care if you give him credit or not. Turning him back into a starter again was not the obvious move. Making him closer and trading him in July was the easiest, most obvious move. Half the board, here, screamed about ramping him up in under a few years. 

I disagree with the timeframe of making him a starter, and I think that’s how most people see it. It seems to me that they’re already overworking him and he will be hurt or otherwise sidelined pretty quickly. It’s being rushed, but I know we disagree on that point.

[WestEddy]

15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Getz thought so highly of Burger he let him play in a college summer league in the St. Louis area during his comeback.

Burger and Sheets came up with the idea of a new hitting practice tool on their own last year, too.

I'm not sure how any of this disproves that the list of names I provided, who all came through the minors on Getz's watch, can have their development credited to the guy in charge. 

Edited April 4 by WestEddy

[WestEddy]

9 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

WestEddy is a White Sox employee, and you will not convince me otherwise. No other White Sox "fan" would spend this much time on here defending the White Sox organization, without getting paid to do so. 

The organization has earned no benefit of the doubt. There is no reason to have any confidence that THIS TIME they promoted a Reinsdorf "yes-man", will be any different from the last few decades of the same nepotistic bullshit.

Nothing Getz has accomplished before being promoted, tells us he knows what he's doing. He was "in charge" of one of the worst farm systems in the MLB, until they started trading assets away to fix it. They have consistently spent high draft picks on guys that turn into below average MLB players. The White Sox haven't "developed" any impact players, aside from the ones that were fully EXPECTED to be impact players, during his tenure. In fact, one could argue the can't miss prospects ALL have significant flaws that the White Sox are seemingly unable to address. Players straight up regress with the MLB club, almost without exception.

But carry on. This s%*# is entertaining. 

I'm not even defending the organization or Getz. That's the funniest part. Nobody's asking for "the benefit of the doubt". All I'm arguing are simple facts. This is such an echo chamber of negativity that I could say today is Thursday, and everyone will start accusing me of being Reinsdorf's pet. Y'all dig in and argue the simplest facts. 

Expecting a player to become an impact player does not mean he wasn't "developed". A GM promoting a starting pitcher and sticking him in the bullpen isn't a failure on the player development guy. 

I'm not sure what you're entertained by. I guess reading people stating simple facts, and you feeling compelled to argue against logic can be funny, but only if you can laugh at yourself. 

 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I'm not sure how any of this disproves that as director of player development, the list of names I provided, who all came through the minors on Getz's watch, can have their development credited to the guy in charge. 

Let's just see if he lands on his feet after inevitably getting dumped...Grifol will be the first to go, then Getz for attempting to copy the Royals.

The claim will be that a fresh institutional approach was needed.

[WestEddy]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Let's just see if he lands on his feet after inevitably getting dumped...Grifol will be the first to go, then Getz for attempting to copy the Royals.

The claim will be that a fresh institutional approach was needed.

Who cares? People are claiming the director of player development had nothing to do with the success enjoyed by the players who came through the minors when he was director. But decades of failure are all his fault. All I'm defending is fact, itself. 

I'm not trying to make anybody like Getz, say he's good at his job or anything, really. It's beyond crazy that a person could state a simple fact, like, "well, some good players did come through the system under Getz", and everybody's heads explode, because that's not negative enough for their tender feelings. 

[Paulie4Pres]

15 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Who cares? People are claiming the director of player development had nothing to do with the success enjoyed by the players who came through the minors when he was director. But decades of failure are all his fault. All I'm defending is fact, itself. 

I'm not trying to make anybody like Getz, say he's good at his job or anything, really. It's beyond crazy that a person could state a simple fact, like, "well, some good players did come through the system under Getz", and everybody's heads explode, because that's not negative enough for their tender feelings. 

The failures outweigh the successes. The regression outweighs the development. This guy was in charge of player development, and Charlotte has been as big of a joke as the White Sox during his tenure. 

You're pointing out "facts" about the limited success the White Sox had, while hand waving the pathetic track record of their drafting, minor league system, and player development. He can't be responsible for the hits and not responsible for the ample failures. Your posts come off as almost pure propaganda.

Edited April 4 by Paulie4Pres

[WestEddy]

It's like everybody has this dialog going on in their head, where the words on the screen are screaming at them that they must never question the White Sox or Chris Getz, and blaming me for those voices. LOL. 

If Chris Getz was such a failure with player development, you could point to clear development failures. You wouldn't have to disallow all of the actual successes from the conversation and come up with strange reasons why the director of player development had nothing to do with the development of players who were in the system during his leadership. Except all the guys who didn't become major leaguers. He developed them. Or didn't. 

I'll be around if anybody wants to discuss this rationally and unemotionally. 

[baseball_gal_aly]

38 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

WestEddy is a White Sox employee, and you will not convince me otherwise. No other White Sox "fan" would spend this much time on here defending the White Sox organization, without getting paid to do so. 

The organization has earned no benefit of the doubt. There is no reason to have any confidence that THIS TIME they promoted a Reinsdorf "yes-man", will be any different from the last few decades of the same nepotistic bullshit.

Nothing Getz has accomplished before being promoted, tells us he knows what he's doing. He was "in charge" of one of the worst farm systems in the MLB, until they started trading assets away to fix it. They have consistently spent high draft picks on guys that turn into below average MLB players. The White Sox haven't "developed" any impact players, aside from the ones that were fully EXPECTED to be impact players, during his tenure. In fact, one could argue the can't miss prospects ALL have significant flaws that the White Sox are seemingly unable to address. Players straight up regress with the MLB club, almost without exception.

But carry on. This s%*# is entertaining. 

? 

[JoeC]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Just in 2017, 10-20, I think there were 2-3 guys who have produced more than 3 bWAR. Garret Whitlock for the Yankees, JR Sears, and a guy for the Astros. Twins had one, too. 4 guys. 

This isn't a high-percentage occurrence. 

...but there ARE guys. I'm sure there are more if you look at 2015 ~ 2016 draft classes as well (who presumably would have made up a good portion of the farm system when he took over in 2017).

The point is that, even if we assume that Getz was competent as a director of player development, the system he oversaw and for which he was responsible for the output consistently failed to produce quality major league players, outside of the "can't miss" prospects who are talented enough anyways and the occasional long reliever / middle reliever. You don't need to turn an entire draft class into everyday major league players, but when the best you've produced is Cody Heuer, that's not a sign of a quality farm system.

I would think that generally, to be promoted, most organizations would want you to... you know... excel at your previous job.

Is it a symptom of the organization as a whole? Absolutely yes. And that's not a good thing.

I will also go on the record as saying that I like the individual moves Getz has made, generally. I hate the Clevinger signing, but other than that, I generally don't mind what he's done, and I want to give him a chance as a GM. I just don't see how anyone can look at this system over the past several years and say "yep - they aren't failing as an organization."

[WestEddy]

2 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

The failures outweigh the successes. The regression outweighs the development. This guy was in charge of player development, and Charlotte has been as big of a joke as the White Sox during his tenure. 

You're pointing out "facts" about the limited success the White Sox had, while hand waving the pathetic track record of their drafting, minor league system, and player development. He can't be responsible for the hits and not responsible for the ample failures. Your posts come off as almost pure propaganda.

Chris Getz was not in charge of scouting, drafting, or signing players. Development. They developed a weird strategy of punting the 3-10 picks to pool up money to go after high school kids in the later rounds. So, yeah, I guess that's 8 mediocre seniors he didn't develop properly every year. 

Yeah, I scratch my head over all of that. I mean, they were all baseball players. And some of the late round guys should have popped. The 2018 draft - they had 10 guys from up and down the draft eventually make the majors. As opposed to, like, 1. I'm not waving anything away. It's the people who are denying that Getz had anything to do with guys who developed during his tenure. That's just silly. 

Zack Collins. There's a failure. They drafted a kid with a hitch in his swing, and they couldn't fix it. Jimmy Lambert, Zach Remillard and Matt Foster came out of the later rounds of that draft. No, they're not All-Stars, but they were developed, and did have some use when they played. 

You're reading them as pure propaganda because I won't engage in the wild denial of reality the naysayers engage in, here. 

 

[Paulie4Pres]

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

It's like everybody has this dialog going on in their head, where the words on the screen are screaming at them that they must never question the White Sox or Chris Getz, and blaming me for those voices. LOL. 

If Chris Getz was such a failure with player development, you could point to clear development failures. You wouldn't have to disallow all of the actual successes from the conversation and come up with strange reasons why the director of player development had nothing to do with the development of players who were in the system during his leadership. Except all the guys who didn't become major leaguers. He developed them. Or didn't. 

I'll be around if anybody wants to discuss this rationally and unemotionally. 

You realize his list of "successes" is an absolute joke, right? That's what's hilarious about it all. You listed all the players that he supposedly developed, and it's a list of replacement level guys, with a couple players who were FULLY EXPECTED to be impact players sprinkled in... Guys, I might add, that never really reached the potential most expected from them... The rebuild, which you would think the Director of Player Development would have a huge influence on, was a fucking failure... Even though they TRADED for multiple blue chip prospects.

This team has been an abject failure in all aspects of baseball over the last decade, ESPECIALLY player development, and Getz was a huge part of that failure.

[baseball_gal_aly]

13 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

You realize his list of "successes" is an absolute joke, right? That's what's hilarious about it all. You listed all the players that he supposedly developed, and it's a list of replacement level guys, with a couple players who were FULLY EXPECTED to be impact players sprinkled in... Guys, I might add, that never really reached the potential most expected from them... The rebuild, which you would think the Director of Player Development would have a huge influence on, was a fucking failure... Even though they TRADED for multiple blue chip prospects.

This team has been an abject failure in all aspects of baseball over the last decade, ESPECIALLY player development, and Getz was a huge part of that failure.

Dylan Cease and Luis Robert were the best of their blue chip prospects.  The rest were all massive disappointments or busts. 

And even Cease and Robert are only 4-5 win players. They would have needed to hit on all of them to have a chance. You can argue that both underperformed based on their talent. 

Moncada can be a 4-5 win player but is way too inconsistent from season to season, and honestly I think it has to do with his contact issues. 

Edited April 4 by baseball_gal_aly

[champagne030]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Cease, Burger, Robert, Davis Martin, Crochet, Madrigal, Sheets, Jimmy Lambert, Zach Remillard, Rey Lopez, Giolito, Jimenez, Yoan, Kopech, Cristian Mena, Lenyn Sosa. 

April fools was 3 days ago.  This has to be a joke.  That's a list of people he had nothing to do with  and the rest is a list of suckage.

[WestEddy]

56 minutes ago, champagne030 said:

April fools was 3 days ago.  This has to be a joke.  That's a list of people he had nothing to do with  and the rest is a list of suckage.

Thanks for the laugh. Maybe one day, somebody will explain the term "self-awareness" to you. 

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Paulie4Pres said:

You realize his list of "successes" is an absolute joke, right? That's what's hilarious about it all. You listed all the players that he supposedly developed, and it's a list of replacement level guys, with a couple players who were FULLY EXPECTED to be impact players sprinkled in... Guys, I might add, that never really reached the potential most expected from them... The rebuild, which you would think the Director of Player Development would have a huge influence on, was a fucking failure... Even though they TRADED for multiple blue chip prospects.

This team has been an abject failure in all aspects of baseball over the last decade, ESPECIALLY player development, and Getz was a huge part of that failure.

Robert, Burger and Cease aren't replacement level. It's funny that you think young players come through and develop themselves. 

But you seem to be having a different argument with the voices in your head. I'll let you get back to that. 

[Paulie4Pres]

5 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Robert, Burger and Cease aren't replacement level. It's funny that you think young players come through and develop themselves. 

But you seem to be having a different argument with the voices in your head. I'll let you get back to that. 

Whatever you say, Chris.

[champagne030]

33 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Thanks for the laugh. Maybe one day, somebody will explain the term "self-awareness" to you. 

We're all laughing at you at being a troll.

[WestEddy]

1 minute ago, champagne030 said:

We're all laughing at you at being a troll.

Not a troll, just stating facts, but thanks for playing. 

[Chicago White Sox]

We kept Dominic Leone over Popeye…what a clownshow organization

[wegner]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

We kept Dominic Leone over Popeye…what a clownshow organization

That's the kind of move that makes me hate the Getz hire more and more

[Lip Man 1]

Cease, Burger, Robert, Davis Martin, Crochet, Madrigal, Sheets, Jimmy Lambert, Zach Remillard, Rey Lopez, Giolito, Jimenez, Yoan, Kopech, Cristian Mena, Lenyn Sosa. 

Just an outsider looking in to this discussion:

Cease not really developed by the Sox came from the Cubs where he spent a lot of his minor league time

Burger because of his injuries really did most of his rehab/development on his own. Not a lot of Sox input

Robert Sox did develop him somewhat to be sure but he was considered one of the best amateur players in the world

Martin What? Guy has done very little even when he didn't blow out his arm

Crochet guy has been basically injured, has made two starts, let's see how things turn out

Madrigal nothing but injuries and was rushed to the majors, Sox didn't develop him a lot

Sheets What? total bust

Lambert What? total bust

Remillard What? Career AAAA player, he's a "success?"

Lopez spent most of his minor league time with the Nationals, inconsistent with the Sox, maybe some credit here

Giolito This is the guy I think the Sox should get the most credit for helping turn into an All-Star.

Jimenez What? Your joking right?

Moncada What? Your joking part II

Kopech What? Your joking part III

All three of the above guys have been not total busts but tremendous disappointments with limited success

Mena jury is very much out on him to see if he does better in another organization

Sosa don't see how anyone can say he's a success given very limited track record

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Every time I post the link it won’t format so here is the picture and have fun finding all this fun stuff 

[WhiteSox2023]

18 hours ago, Paulie4Pres said:

WestEddy is a White Sox employee, and you will not convince me otherwise. No other White Sox "fan" would spend this much time on here defending the White Sox organization, without getting paid to do so. 

The organization has earned no benefit of the doubt. There is no reason to have any confidence that THIS TIME they promoted a Reinsdorf "yes-man", will be any different from the last few decades of the same nepotistic bullshit.

Nothing Getz has accomplished before being promoted, tells us he knows what he's doing. He was "in charge" of one of the worst farm systems in the MLB, until they started trading assets away to fix it. They have consistently spent high draft picks on guys that turn into below average MLB players. The White Sox haven't "developed" any impact players, aside from the ones that were fully EXPECTED to be impact players, during his tenure. In fact, one could argue the can't miss prospects ALL have significant flaws that the White Sox are seemingly unable to address. Players straight up regress with the MLB club, almost without exception.

But carry on. This s%*# is entertaining. 

It really is quite amazing.  What in the heck has a Reinsdorf-run Sox team done over the years to make someone give them the benefit of the doubt on anything?  One season in 2005 when the stars luckily aligned and the baseball gods actually felt sorry for Jerry and gave him a winner?