The moment this all started

[ron883]

12 minutes ago, Tomtom said:

Yes, true, but it was the begining of their downfall.

It was at the start of their success. A championship, multiple finals runs, multiple eastern conference finals runs. It didn't contribute to it of course and they win more with Melo, DWade, Iggy or whoever. 

[Tony]

People cite the Wheeler and Harper/Machado stuff, and they are absolutely right. Having Bryce and Wheeler on those 2020/2021 teams would have changed a lot in my opinion. 

However, while they did a solid job of building the core up in Robert/Anderson/Abreu/Eloy/Moncada/Cease/Giolito...there was never a next wave coming. Under the reign of Williams/Hahn, they never could develop prospects, and if you don't do that, you can only sustain success at the MLB level for so long, doesn't even matter what your budget is. Rebuilds never go as planned, guys you pencil in as part of the core just don't work out, it's simply an odds game. Eloy/Moncada/Kopech being great examples of just not hitting, but guys like Robert and Cease performed at levels maybe even higher than anticipated. But it's a numbers game, and you need a wave behind those guys to test your odds out again at hitting, and the Sox just didn't have anything in the system to support any sort of sustained success, which has been true for the last 3 decades basically. 

[chitownsportsfan]

7 minutes ago, Tony said:

People cite the Wheeler and Harper/Machado stuff, and they are absolutely right. Having Bryce and Wheeler on those 2020/2021 teams would have changed a lot in my opinion. 

However, while they did a solid job of building the core up in Robert/Anderson/Abreu/Eloy/Moncada/Cease/Giolito...there was never a next wave coming. Under the reign of Williams/Hahn, they never could develop prospects, and if you don't do that, you can only sustain success at the MLB level for so long, doesn't even matter what your budget is. Rebuilds never go as planned, guys you pencil in as part of the core just don't work out, it's simply an odds game. Eloy/Moncada/Kopech being great examples of just not hitting, but guys like Robert and Cease performed at levels maybe even higher than anticipated. But it's a numbers game, and you need a wave behind those guys to test your odds out again at hitting, and the Sox just didn't have anything in the system to support any sort of sustained success, which has been true for the last 3 decades basically. 

Right. I touched on it as well they couldn't even produce a back end starter or in house setup guy. I guess maybe Bummer for a season or two but that's like 1.5 WAR out of the entirety of the non-traded for farm.  Hindsight is 20/20 but they should have been drafting way more HS arms starting in 2015 or so knowing they'd have a 10 year window to matriculate a few keepers into the MLB.

[oldsox]

6 hours ago, Tomtom said:

In a debacle such as the 2024 White Sox, one can always point out to that specific moment where it all started to go to sh$$#$%t.  A case in point - The NBA's Detroit Pistons - The draft where they passed up on both Carmelo Anthony and Dwayne Wade to Draft that European monster, Darko Milicek.  They haven't been relevent since!  For the Sox, I go back to when their glorious owner insisted bringing Tony LaRussa out of retirement - or a nursing home - to manage the Sox.  At the same time A.J Hinch was sitting out their looking for a managerial job, and I , for one was screaming for the Sox to hire him. They did not - and now look at what Hinch is doing in Detroit.  Of course, it does take more than a manager.  It takes a knowlegeable GM and an owner willing to open his wallet.  This off season the Tigers went out and brought in some proven Major league talent in Mark Cahna, Gia Urshela and Jack Flaherty....while the Sox bring in the likes o Nicky Lopez, Braden Shewmake (who???) and Dominick Fletcher (who???).  Others were out there: Soler, Hernandez, Renfroe, Merrifield, Gurriel, Chapman, JD Martinez - just to name a few.  And there were pitchers available as well, but the braintrust  - and I use the word brain here modestly - chose to go with the likes of Deivi Garcia, Dominick Leone, Brian Shaw, Tim Hill (who???)...Someone explain to Reinsdorf that in today's world of MLB, and sports in general, you have to spend money to win....and even if you are good at identifying young talent, as soon as they make it big you have to SPEND MONEY to keep those players. Jerry: do you really want a fan base who is simply waiting for your time to come?  Sell now to someone who cares.  

Joe Dumars is responsible for that Detroit Pistons draft pick.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

It seemed like everyone w playing nice.  The Mercedes situation happened and you started to see the cracks.

I know I don't follow the other 29 teams as closely,  but I can't recall a situation where an entire team regressed as fast as it did.

[The Mighty Mite]

6 hours ago, Tomtom said:

In a debacle such as the 2024 White Sox, one can always point out to that specific moment where it all started to go to sh$$#$%t.  A case in point - The NBA's Detroit Pistons - The draft where they passed up on both Carmelo Anthony and Dwayne Wade to Draft that European monster, Darko Milicek.  They haven't been relevent since!  For the Sox, I go back to when their glorious owner insisted bringing Tony LaRussa out of retirement - or a nursing home - to manage the Sox.  At the same time A.J Hinch was sitting out their looking for a managerial job, and I , for one was screaming for the Sox to hire him. They did not - and now look at what Hinch is doing in Detroit.  Of course, it does take more than a manager.  It takes a knowlegeable GM and an owner willing to open his wallet.  This off season the Tigers went out and brought in some proven Major league talent in Mark Cahna, Gia Urshela and Jack Flaherty....while the Sox bring in the likes o Nicky Lopez, Braden Shewmake (who???) and Dominick Fletcher (who???).  Others were out there: Soler, Hernandez, Renfroe, Merrifield, Gurriel, Chapman, JD Martinez - just to name a few.  And there were pitchers available as well, but the braintrust  - and I use the word brain here modestly - chose to go with the likes of Deivi Garcia, Dominick Leone, Brian Shaw, Tim Hill (who???)...Someone explain to Reinsdorf that in today's world of MLB, and sports in general, you have to spend money to win....and even if you are good at identifying young talent, as soon as they make it big you have to SPEND MONEY to keep those players. Jerry: do you really want a fan base who is simply waiting for your time to come?  Sell now to someone who cares.  

I agree that the hiring of TLR was a huge mistake and I said it from the beginning, taking it a step further I think LaRussa lost the team over the Mercedes incident and there were also the comments of Anderson comparing himself with Jackie Robinson and claiming that he is the best player on the field, I believe that’s when the dissension on the team started.

 

[Harry Chappas]

Handing Hahn the job

Shields trade

Missing on Harper.  

Not trading for Lynn in 2020

Astros playoff handing Sox their ass

Josh Naylor game

In essence it's the fact Hahn was as bad an executive to ever walk the earth. 

[Southwest Sider]

6 hours ago, T R U said:

I think its two things.

1. Hiring Tony LaRussa to manage to club when it was time to take the next step in the rebuild.

2. Missing out on Zach Wheeler and failing to even get serious with Bryce Harper or Manny Machado. Zach Wheeler has been great, Harper has won an MVP and put up 18.7 bWAR over this timreframe and Machado has put up 20.3

TLR was the 3rd nail in the coffin.

Not going balls to the wall for Harper/Wheeler the 2nd.

Ultimately, with hindsight though, the moment in time where it all went to s%*# was when whoever made the decision to deprioritize player development and ALL Latin American spending except for Cuba. Even if it wasn't a conscious decision, nowhere in basically 20 years did someone stand up and say "We suck at this and need to do whatever it takes to get better"... Which seems to be right around after they won the World Series and stopped producing their own Magglios, Carlos Lee's, Credes, Rowands, etc.

Not supplementing this core we had with our own well developed players doomed this "rebuild" and is the primary reason this franchise has not been competitive at all since 2008, with the 2nd factor being never going after premium talent. 

It all starts at the top. 

[bmags]

I don't think it was one thing. If it was where it starts, it was the 2016 draft.

[chitownsportsfan]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

I don't think it was one thing. If it was where it starts, it was the 2016 draft.

anything in particular? Looked like a crap draft going over the names just now, not just for Sox, but everybody.

[CentralChamps21]

7 minutes ago, bmags said:

I don't think it was one thing. If it was where it starts, it was the 2016 draft.

It started when JR bought the team. Every hire was based on personal reasons and not based on competence. Some of them, like Kenny Williams and Ozzie Guillen, did turn out to be good at their jobs, at least for a while, but that was coincidental. It resulted in lightning in a bottle in 2005.

[TheBooneLoganEra]

The moment they signed Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso to lure Machado we should've known this would fail miserably. I knew when they failed with Machado, but fooled myself into buying into it out of desperation. 

[Texsox]

9 hours ago, chetkincaid said:

The only free agents who would sign here are the players on the tail end of their career and have no other place to go. This is a team full of nomads just glad to have a job because no one else would sign them. This team, this organization is garbage and no one wants to come here. Why would a highly sought after free agent want to commit to a team with an owner who’s never signed a contract over $100 million? Even if he signed one, would he sign another if that is what is needed to win?

Liam came because of TLR. 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Liam came because of TLR. 

He came because of Soxtalk

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The hire of Tony changed everything. 

It changed nothing. It was just a more public display of who was in charge. Jerry Reinsdorf.

[chetkincaid]

3 hours ago, Texsox said:

Liam came because of TLR. 

Liam signed to a young team that was on the come up. That is not this team. 

[bmags]

6 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

anything in particular? Looked like a crap draft going over the names just now, not just for Sox, but everybody.

2016 draft was incredible and could have stocked the farm for a decade.

[ron883]

TLR sucked. But claiming that an entire swath of players forgot to play baseball because of a manager is laughable. 

[The Mighty Mite]

14 hours ago, ron883 said:

TLR sucked. But claiming that an entire swath of players forgot to play baseball because of a manager is laughable. 

They didn’t forget to play but somewhere, somehow they lost the chemistry that winning teams need. 

[ron883]

33 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

They didn’t forget to play but somewhere, somehow they lost the chemistry that winning teams need. 

Was Tony part of the Monstars by chance? Did he zap their powers?

[chitownsportsfan]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:

They didn’t forget to play but somewhere, somehow they lost the chemistry that winning teams need. 

Pretty sure the true talent level, as represented by the various projection systems year over year, going from 90-93 to 78-81, was the reason for that. Tony was just a long for the ride and symbolized failure, but he wasn't the main cause, no manager ever is.

Edited April 6 by chitownsportsfan

[waltwilliams]

I think the organization began its free-fall when Kenny Williams was kicked upstairs and replaced as GM by Rick Hahn.

He had his detractors, but KW was arguably the greatest GM in Sox history, winning a WS and three AL Central titles during his run as GM from 2001 to 2012. They finished second in five other seasons and at .500 or better nine times under Kenny, putting together a 1,014-931 record during his stint as GM.

The KW teams were great fun to watch, even when flawed. And that showed by attendance, which averaged at around 2.5 million between 2005 and 2011.

KW was an excellent evaluator of major league talent, and was able to acquire undervalued talent who made a difference -- A.J. Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye, Freddy Garcia, Carlos Quentin, Juan Uribe and dozens more.

Imagine if he had been able to swing the deal with the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera for (reportedly) Josh Fields, Gio Gonzales and (maybe) Jon Garland back in 2007! KW had that deal sewed up - the only reason that didn't happen is because JR didn't want to take on Dontrelle Willis's salary, which the Marlins insisted on. The Tigers did accept that salary, and the rest is history.

But the bottom dropped out under Hahn, who had only one really good year during his tenure -- 2021. (I don't count the Covid year). Despite having higher annual budgets than KW, Hahn's teams underperformed year after year. He followed up KW's stellar run with a 716-846 record, a barren farm system and consistently dwindling attendance.

KW was much more effective than the overrated Roland Hemond as GM. Only Ron Schueler and the late 40s/50s/early 60s GMs (Frank Lane, Chuck Comiskey, Hank Greenberg, Ed Short) could approach Kenny's record. (Larry Himes built the great early 90s teams, but was forced out before he could enjoy their success).

 

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, waltwilliams said:

I think the organization began its free-fall when Kenny Williams was kicked upstairs and replaced as GM by Rick Hahn.

He had his detractors, but KW was arguably the greatest GM in Sox history, winning a WS and three AL Central titles during his run as GM from 2001 to 2012. They finished second in five other seasons and at .500 or better nine times under Kenny, putting together a 1,014-931 record during his stint as GM.

The KW teams were great fun to watch, even when flawed. And that showed by attendance, which averaged at around 2.5 million between 2005 and 2011.

KW was an excellent evaluator of major league talent, and was able to acquire undervalued talent who made a difference -- A.J. Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye, Freddy Garcia, Carlos Quentin, Juan Uribe and dozens more.

Imagine if he had been able to swing the deal with the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera for (reportedly) Josh Fields, Gio Gonzales and (maybe) Jon Garland back in 2007! KW had that deal sewed up - the only reason that didn't happen is because JR didn't want to take on Dontrelle Willis's salary, which the Marlins insisted on. The Tigers did accept that salary, and the rest is history.

But the bottom dropped out under Hahn, who had only one really good year during his tenure -- 2021. (I don't count the Covid year). Despite having higher annual budgets than KW, Hahn's teams underperformed year after year. He followed up KW's stellar run with a 716-846 record, a barren farm system and consistently dwindling attendance.

KW was much more effective than the overrated Roland Hemond as GM. Only Ron Schueler and the late 40s/50s/early 60s GMs (Frank Lane, Chuck Comiskey, Hank Greenberg, Ed Short) could approach Kenny's record. (Larry Himes built the great early 90s teams, but was forced out before he could enjoy their success).

 

Kenny did a good job overall. He was also allowed to spend on contract in a way his followers have and will not be. It was a fun time to be a Sox fan growing up. Ever since I turned 30 it's been putrid and that was a decade ago now.

[The Mighty Mite]

On 4/5/2024 at 8:52 AM, chetkincaid said:

The only free agents who would sign here are the players on the tail end of their career and have no other place to go. This is a team full of nomads just glad to have a job because no one else would sign them. This team, this organization is garbage and no one wants to come here. Why would a highly sought after free agent want to commit to a team with an owner who’s never signed a contract over $100 million? Even if he signed one, would he sign another if that is what is needed to win?

Delete

Edited April 25 by The Mighty Mite

[Lip Man 1]

41 minutes ago, waltwilliams said:

I think the organization began its free-fall when Kenny Williams was kicked upstairs and replaced as GM by Rick Hahn.

He had his detractors, but KW was arguably the greatest GM in Sox history, winning a WS and three AL Central titles during his run as GM from 2001 to 2012. They finished second in five other seasons and at .500 or better nine times under Kenny, putting together a 1,014-931 record during his stint as GM.

The KW teams were great fun to watch, even when flawed. And that showed by attendance, which averaged at around 2.5 million between 2005 and 2011.

KW was an excellent evaluator of major league talent, and was able to acquire undervalued talent who made a difference -- A.J. Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye, Freddy Garcia, Carlos Quentin, Juan Uribe and dozens more.

Imagine if he had been able to swing the deal with the Marlins for Miguel Cabrera for (reportedly) Josh Fields, Gio Gonzales and (maybe) Jon Garland back in 2007! KW had that deal sewed up - the only reason that didn't happen is because JR didn't want to take on Dontrelle Willis's salary, which the Marlins insisted on. The Tigers did accept that salary, and the rest is history.

But the bottom dropped out under Hahn, who had only one really good year during his tenure -- 2021. (I don't count the Covid year). Despite having higher annual budgets than KW, Hahn's teams underperformed year after year. He followed up KW's stellar run with a 716-846 record, a barren farm system and consistently dwindling attendance.

KW was much more effective than the overrated Roland Hemond as GM. Only Ron Schueler and the late 40s/50s/early 60s GMs (Frank Lane, Chuck Comiskey, Hank Greenberg, Ed Short) could approach Kenny's record. (Larry Himes built the great early 90s teams, but was forced out before he could enjoy their success).

 

The same Roland Hemond who built the 72, 77 and 83 Sox? Especially when most of his tenure took place with ownership not having real money or a willingness to take on top free agents?

Sorry you feel that way, as I wrote in my interview with Roland history says differently:

And then we come to the person I think holds the title of the ‘best’ Sox G.M., Roland Hemond.

When Hemond took over the organization the franchise was literally in shambles. He faced challenges no other individual who held the position of G.M. ever faced.

The Sox were on their way to a franchise record 106 loss season in 1970. Comiskey Park was falling apart from disrepair. Fans were staying away in droves because the area was supposedly in a bad neighborhood. In 1969 for example the team drew, for the season, only 589,000... even that would fall to a paltry 495,000 in 1970. In 1968 and 1969, owner Art Allyn was playing a portion of his home games in Milwaukee trying the market to see if it would accept a move of the franchise from the South Side. The Sox would even lose their radio station and have to broadcast games starting in 1971 on two small outlets in LaGrange and Evanston, Illinois. Anything and everything that could go wrong for the White Sox did. And into this cesspool stepped Hemond along with new field manager Chuck Tanner.

Overnight, Hemond, who spent years in both the Milwaukee Braves and California Angels farm system began to deal. Other general managers trusted and liked him because of his integrity and honesty. He was usually one of the first to be called when trade discussions took place. He always tried to get the best of a deal but never at the expense of humiliating or embarrassing his counterpart. Hemond realized if he did this, the odds of him being called back for future discussions or trades were small.

In that first off season he netted the Sox such players as Mike Andrews, Luis Alvarado, Rick Reichardt, Ed “the Creeper” Stroud, Pat Kelly, Tom Egan, Tom Bradley and Jay Johnstone. Superstars? No...but they were solid ballplayers who improved the talent and depth of the club. Overnight the Sox went from 56 wins to 79, one of the biggest turnarounds in the history of baseball.

In 1972 Hemond rolled the dice bringing in talented but oft troubled Dick Allen. Allen was on his third team in three seasons and was considered a clubhouse cancer. Hemond also made a deal for starting pitcher Stan Bahnsen. Those two, along with holdovers like Carlos May, Wilbur Wood, “Goose” Gossage, Terry Forster and Ed Herrmann almost brought a division title to the South Side. Allen nearly won the Triple Crown; Hemond was named Executive of the Year and Tanner the Manager of the Year. Roland proved that rebuilding didn’t have to take five years.

Financial issues still plagued the franchise through the 70's even with new owner Bill Veeck. Hemond was never able to operate with a full deck of cash but he kept the team competitive and in 1977 he along with Veeck put together the “South Side Hit Men” who tore apart the American League bashing 192 home runs. Such ‘thrown in’s’ and ‘has been’s’ like Eric Soderholm, Steve Stone, Alan Bannister, Jim Essian, Don Kessinger and Steve Renko performed exceptionally well and mated with established players like Richie Zisk, Oscar Gamble, Chet Lemon, Lerrin LaGrow, George Orta and Ralph Garr to produce excitement not seen since 1972.

When new owners Jerry Reinsdorf and Eddie Einhorn took over in January 1981, Hemond finally had some money to work with. Immediately he and Einhorn took part in the negotiations to bring free agent Carlton Fisk to Chicago. Hemond also convinced Chicago native Greg Luzinski to come back home after the Phillies released him. These two along with other Hemond steals like Billy Almon and Tony Bernazard led to a revitalization of the franchise. Much like 10 years earlier, the Sox produced a winning record in the strike shortened season. They had another winning year in 1982 as Hemond added role players like Rudy Law and Vance Law. By the time 1983 began, Roland was able to extract such players as Scott Fletcher, Dick Tidrow, Randy Martz and Pat Tabler from the Cubs in part because he considered the possibility of taking future Hall of Fame pitcher Ferguson Jenkins in the free agent compensation draft. Tabler was then shipped to Cleveland for Jerry Dybzinski. The pieces were in place and after a slow start, the Sox tore through the league compiling 99 wins on their way to the Western Division Championship. 

Hemond then used the free agent compensation process again in getting future Hall of Fame pitcher Tom Seaver who’d win his 300^th games in a Sox uniform in New York on August 4, 1985 as well as trading for a person who’d turn out to be the Rookie of the Year and a future Sox manager, Ozzie Guillen.

In the 15 years Hemond was in charge he pulled off over 100 trades, had six winning seasons and won a Western Division championship. Considering the challenges the team went through economically, talent wise and perception wise, no other Sox G.M. did as much with less.