The moment this all started

[PaleAleSox]

On 4/5/2024 at 2:41 PM, Harry Chappas said:

Handing Hahn the job

Shields trade

Missing on Harper.  

Not trading for Lynn in 2020

Astros playoff handing Sox their ass

Josh Naylor game

In essence it's the fact Hahn was as bad an executive to ever walk the earth. 

Not going for homefield in 2021 killed them. Such an incredibly stupid move to let up.

[waltwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The same Roland Hemond who built the 72, 77 and 83 Sox? Especially when most of his tenure took place with ownership not having real money or a willingness to take on top free agents?

Sorry you feel that way, as I wrote in my interview with Roland history says differently:

And then we come to the person I think holds the title of the ‘best’ Sox G.M., Roland Hemond.

When Hemond took over the organization the franchise was literally in shambles. He faced challenges no other individual who held the position of G.M. ever faced.

The Sox were on their way to a franchise record 106 loss season in 1970. Comiskey Park was falling apart from disrepair. Fans were staying away in droves because the area was supposedly in a bad neighborhood. In 1969 for example the team drew, for the season, only 589,000... even that would fall to a paltry 495,000 in 1970. In 1968 and 1969, owner Art Allyn was playing a portion of his home games in Milwaukee trying the market to see if it would accept a move of the franchise from the South Side. The Sox would even lose their radio station and have to broadcast games starting in 1971 on two small outlets in LaGrange and Evanston, Illinois. Anything and everything that could go wrong for the White Sox did. And into this cesspool stepped Hemond along with new field manager Chuck Tanner.

Overnight, Hemond, who spent years in both the Milwaukee Braves and California Angels farm system began to deal. Other general managers trusted and liked him because of his integrity and honesty. He was usually one of the first to be called when trade discussions took place. He always tried to get the best of a deal but never at the expense of humiliating or embarrassing his counterpart. Hemond realized if he did this, the odds of him being called back for future discussions or trades were small.

In that first off season he netted the Sox such players as Mike Andrews, Luis Alvarado, Rick Reichardt, Ed “the Creeper” Stroud, Pat Kelly, Tom Egan, Tom Bradley and Jay Johnstone. Superstars? No...but they were solid ballplayers who improved the talent and depth of the club. Overnight the Sox went from 56 wins to 79, one of the biggest turnarounds in the history of baseball.

In 1972 Hemond rolled the dice bringing in talented but oft troubled Dick Allen. Allen was on his third team in three seasons and was considered a clubhouse cancer. Hemond also made a deal for starting pitcher Stan Bahnsen. Those two, along with holdovers like Carlos May, Wilbur Wood, “Goose” Gossage, Terry Forster and Ed Herrmann almost brought a division title to the South Side. Allen nearly won the Triple Crown; Hemond was named Executive of the Year and Tanner the Manager of the Year. Roland proved that rebuilding didn’t have to take five years.

Financial issues still plagued the franchise through the 70's even with new owner Bill Veeck. Hemond was never able to operate with a full deck of cash but he kept the team competitive and in 1977 he along with Veeck put together the “South Side Hit Men” who tore apart the American League bashing 192 home runs. Such ‘thrown in’s’ and ‘has been’s’ like Eric Soderholm, Steve Stone, Alan Bannister, Jim Essian, Don Kessinger and Steve Renko performed exceptionally well and mated with established players like Richie Zisk, Oscar Gamble, Chet Lemon, Lerrin LaGrow, George Orta and Ralph Garr to produce excitement not seen since 1972.

When new owners Jerry Reinsdorf and Eddie Einhorn took over in January 1981, Hemond finally had some money to work with. Immediately he and Einhorn took part in the negotiations to bring free agent Carlton Fisk to Chicago. Hemond also convinced Chicago native Greg Luzinski to come back home after the Phillies released him. These two along with other Hemond steals like Billy Almon and Tony Bernazard led to a revitalization of the franchise. Much like 10 years earlier, the Sox produced a winning record in the strike shortened season. They had another winning year in 1982 as Hemond added role players like Rudy Law and Vance Law. By the time 1983 began, Roland was able to extract such players as Scott Fletcher, Dick Tidrow, Randy Martz and Pat Tabler from the Cubs in part because he considered the possibility of taking future Hall of Fame pitcher Ferguson Jenkins in the free agent compensation draft. Tabler was then shipped to Cleveland for Jerry Dybzinski. The pieces were in place and after a slow start, the Sox tore through the league compiling 99 wins on their way to the Western Division Championship. 

Hemond then used the free agent compensation process again in getting future Hall of Fame pitcher Tom Seaver who’d win his 300^th games in a Sox uniform in New York on August 4, 1985 as well as trading for a person who’d turn out to be the Rookie of the Year and a future Sox manager, Ozzie Guillen.

In the 15 years Hemond was in charge he pulled off over 100 trades, had six winning seasons and won a Western Division championship. Considering the challenges the team went through economically, talent wise and perception wise, no other Sox G.M. did as much with less.

Good points, Lip -- didn't realize Hemond had six winning seasons. I agree with the fact that Hemond had to contend with the financial problems of both the Allyn and Veeck ownership groups. And he really should be championed for his work in '71 after he was hired, when the team was an afterthought.

But he was also fortunate to be around for the one period when JR was willing to spend money -- the early 80s, which led to the Winning Ugly team. But that team quickly fizzled after '83, partly because Hemond didn't acquire/develop enough talent around his high-profile free agent acquisitions.. His early 70s acquisitions of people like Dick Allen and Stan Bahnsen were great, but those teams weren't deep at all. Once Dick went down with injuries in '73, that team fizzled too. And don't forget, as great as Dick was, he didn't last long. And the guy he was traded for -- Tommy John -- pitched at a high level for another 16 years (after his famous surgery, of course).

Perhaps "overrated" is too harsh for Hemond, but pretty much all Sox GMs had to deal with parsimonious owners. I think ultimately KW and the 50s/60s GMs were able to accomplish more with less than Roland Hemond.

[Lip Man 1]

10 minutes ago, waltwilliams said:

Good points, Lip -- didn't realize Hemond had six winning seasons. I agree with the fact that Hemond had to contend with the financial problems of both the Allyn and Veeck ownership groups. And he really should be championed for his work in '71 after he was hired, when the team was an afterthought.

But he was also fortunate to be around for the one period when JR was willing to spend money -- the early 80s, which led to the Winning Ugly team. But that team quickly fizzled after '83, partly because Hemond didn't acquire/develop enough talent around his high-profile free agent acquisitions.. His early 70s acquisitions of people like Dick Allen and Stan Bahnsen were great, but those teams weren't deep at all. Once Dick went down with injuries in '73, that team fizzled too. And don't forget, as great as Dick was, he didn't last long. And the guy he was traded for -- Tommy John -- pitched at a high level for another 16 years (after his famous surgery, of course).

Perhaps "overrated" is too harsh for Hemond, but pretty much all Sox GMs had to deal with parsimonious owners. I think ultimately KW and the 50s/60s GMs were able to accomplish more with less than Roland Hemond.

From 81 through 83 the Sox signed/acquired two good players every year. Fisk and Luzinski...Paciorek and Kemp...Bannister and Cruz.

Then as JR himself said he didn't realize winning would cost so much. He began shutting things down and started to form his opinions on collusion during the mid-80's and an attempt to break the MLBPA. Those weren't Roland's fault.

Then of course he hired Harrelson to be the GM who promptly drove the team in the basement and quit that September. I wrote the chapter on his tenure for Dr. Fletcher's next book on the Sox which will be out next year.  

[Big Hurtin]

[southsider2k5]

Just because something happened a long time ago, doesn't make it great.

[Green Line]

This is so delusional.

TLRDS

[Lip Man 1]

26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Just because something happened a long time ago, doesn't make it great.

No, it doesn't but 17 straight winning seasons (the 4th longest streak in MLB history) is noteworthy. I can't think of a single Sox fan who wouldn't give up something to see that happen again.

[southsider2k5]

18 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

No, it doesn't but 17 straight winning seasons (the 4th longest streak in MLB history) is noteworthy. I can't think of a single Sox fan who wouldn't give up something to see that happen again.

I thought we hated playing for 2nd place?  

[caulfield12]

21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I thought we hated playing for 2nd place?  

Unique playoff rules at that time...without the Yankees, they would have a completely different vibe historically.

[lpneck]

The Sox failures begin with trading Tatis Jr. for Shields.  It's possibly the worst trade in the history of MLB, and I don't know why people aren't still screaming over it.

Shields was 16-35 with a 5.31 ERA in 2.5 seasons with the Sox.  How much better are the 2021 White Sox with an MVP candidate at SS and Anderson playing 2B when he was still good at baseball?

Machado signed with San Diego to play with Tatis.  You telling me he wouldn't have signed to play with him in Chicago if there was a similar deal in place?

They could have been set.  Instead they traded a 17 year old who had MVP level upside for a guy who was done and had just given up a HR to Bartolo Colon so that he could pitch out the season for a team that finished 78-84.

It cost them a decade of relevance outside of 1 playoff win in 2021.

Edited April 26 by lpneck

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, lpneck said:

The Sox failures begin with trading Tatis Jr. for Shields.  It's possibly the worst trade in the history of MLB, and I don't know why people aren't still screaming over it.

Shields was 16-35 with a 5.31 ERA in 2.5 seasons with the Sox.  How much better are the 2021 White Sox with an MVP candidate at SS and Anderson playing 2B when he was still good at baseball?

Machado signed with San Diego to play with Tatis.  You telling me he wouldn't have signed to play with him in Chicago if there was a similar deal in place?

They could have been set.  Instead they traded a 17 year old who had MVP level upside for a guy who was done and had just given up a HR to Bartolo Colon so that he could pitch out the season for a team that finished 78-84.

It cost them a decade of relevance outside of 1 playoff win in 2021.

Lmao no he didn't. Tatis was a highly ranked prospect, while the Sox had a cabinet of highly ranked prospect. He signed with them because the Sox were trying to haggle him on a contract and then San Diego was like "$300M guaranteed" so he signed with them.

[lpneck]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

Lmao no he didn't. Tatis was a highly ranked prospect, while the Sox had a cabinet of highly ranked prospect. He signed with them because the Sox were trying to haggle him on a contract and then San Diego was like "$300M guaranteed" so he signed with them.

That's fair- I didn't really mean to specifically play with Tatis.  I meant that he knew the Padres had a young group of talent and were going to be good.  Kind of like the White Sox outlook in 2019, which would have been even better with Tatis on the team.  So my point is the White Sox would have been much more likely to sign Machado (or Harper and other free agents) if they had young potential MVP talent on the roster.

[Rocky]

On 4/5/2024 at 8:30 AM, ScootsMcGoots said:

There's a reason those guys didn't come here. They saw the writing on the wall. 

They didnt come because JR is cheap.  Period. 

[Quin]

4 minutes ago, lpneck said:

That's fair- I didn't really mean to specifically play with Tatis.  I meant that he knew the Padres had a young group of talent and were going to be good.  Kind of like the White Sox outlook in 2019, which would have been even better with Tatis on the team.  So my point is the White Sox would have been much more likely to sign Machado (or Harper and other free agents) if they had young potential MVP talent on the roster.

Yeah - the annoying part is they did have those prospects. Moncada was coming off bad debut, but still had hype. Eloy had hype, and everyone bought into the Robert hype.

But Tatis obviously makes everything better. Or just signing Machado/Harper. Or both, cause they could have.

Jerry being a cheap fucker is how this was doomed to fail.

[ChiSox59]

22 minutes ago, lpneck said:

The Sox failures begin with trading Tatis Jr. for Shields.  It's possibly the worst trade in the history of MLB, and I don't know why people aren't still screaming over it.

Shields was 16-35 with a 5.31 ERA in 2.5 seasons with the Sox.  How much better are the 2021 White Sox with an MVP candidate at SS and Anderson playing 2B when he was still good at baseball?

Machado signed with San Diego to play with Tatis.  You telling me he wouldn't have signed to play with him in Chicago if there was a similar deal in place?

They could have been set.  Instead they traded a 17 year old who had MVP level upside for a guy who was done and had just given up a HR to Bartolo Colon so that he could pitch out the season for a team that finished 78-84.

It cost them a decade of relevance outside of 1 playoff win in 2021.

While that trade was terrible, Tatis wasn't even the main part of the deal.  The Padres mostly just got really lucky (and the Sox unlucky).  

But the bolded part is just flat wrong.  Machado signed with the Padres over the Sox because they paid him $50 more. Its really that simple.  It had nothing to do with Tatis. 

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

While that trade was terrible, Tatis wasn't even the main part of the deal.  The Padres mostly just got really lucky (and the Sox unlucky).  

But the bolded part is just flat wrong.  Machado signed with the Padres over the Sox because they paid him $50 more. Its really that simple.  It had nothing to do with Tatis. 

Machado has maintained all along he wanted to play together with his fellow countryman Tatis and was never all that serious about joining the White Sox…and that he was perfectly happy to play 3B instead of SS.

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Machado has maintained all along he wanted to play together with his fellow countryman Tatis and was never all that serious about joining the White Sox…and that he was perfectly happy to play 3B instead of SS.

Yeah, I mean that’s why he played that next season with a fresh black and grey glove and posted a picture of his kid all decked out in Sox gear a few days before he signed with the Padres. Machado to Sox was nearly done. He wanted more money tho, and Padres came in last minute and met the ask and Sox thought it was a bluff. Of course Machado will say those things after the fact. 

FWIW - I am not defending the Sox here. They totally fucked the Machado situation, and then spent that $50M on ridiculous things the next 2 seasons. To me, missing on Machado and Harper was where things began to go wrong. But really, the main reason things have gone wrong is lack of health and development from the once elite prospects.

 

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yeah, I mean that’s why he played that next season with a fresh black and grey glove and posted a picture of his kid all decked out in Sox gear a few days before he signed with the Padres. Machado to Sox was nearly done. He wanted more money tho, and Padres came in last minute and met the ask and Sox thought it was a bluff. Of course Machado will say those things after the fact. 

FWIW - I am not defending the Sox here. They totally fucked the Machado situation, and then spent that $50M on ridiculous things the next 2 seasons. To me, missing on Machado and Harper was where things began to go wrong. But really, the main reason things have gone wrong is lack of health and development from the once elite prospects.

 

But it was never clear exactly where he was going to play with Moncada struggling so much at second base in 2018.  Anderson was clearly the SS.

They weren’t going to give up on Moncada…IMO, without Yoan on the roster, though, they almost would have had to sign Manny OR Harper in order to convince fans the rebuild was actually real, or happening.  Like the Cubs with Lester.

But the brain trust still thought Moncada was going to be a superstar, and he was, for that ONE season in 2019.

[ChiSox59]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But it was never clear exactly where he was going to play with Moncada struggling so much at second base in 2018.  Anderson was clearly the SS.

They weren’t going to give up on Moncada…IMO, without Yoan on the roster, though, they almost would have had to sign Manny OR Harper in order to convince fans the rebuild was actually real, or happening.  Like the Cubs with Lester.

But the brain trust still thought Moncada was going to be a superstar, and he was, for that ONE season in 2019.

Moncada would have stayed at 2B, or Machado plays SS, TA moves to 2B and Moncada 3B.  Its a good problem to have.  That was not the reason Machado didn't sign with the Sox.  

Moncada-Machado-Anderson would have been the best set up in the short term.  

[southsider2k5]

14 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Unique playoff rules at that time...without the Yankees, they would have a completely different vibe historically.

Sure, playing for 2nd place now gets you into the playoffs.  But here we are fetishizing failure from a different era, while decrying it in the modern era. 

[southsider2k5]

34 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Machado has maintained all along he wanted to play together with his fellow countryman Tatis and was never all that serious about joining the White Sox…and that he was perfectly happy to play 3B instead of SS.

That's what you say publicly when you don't want to say, "Yeah, I wanted the extra $50 million dumbass, duh."